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Wes Ferrell vs. Rick Ferrell (Hall of Fame ramblings)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by theoldcoastleague

    I simply disagree. I could list a hundred players with lesser careers than Al Oliver that stayed on the ballot for years.
    All right. Give us the list. Show us 100 players who stayed on the ballot "for years" who are lesser players than Al Oliver.

    In the Academy awards it's a great honor just to be nominated. I know the HOF ballot is not the Academy Awards but Oliver's .303 BA with 2743 hits are numbers worthy of Hall of Fame consideration.
    Those numbers may be worthy of HOF consideration, but I think the key question is whether or not other players with those numbers are in the HOF. I used my Lahman database to make a list of all players in baseball history who have between 2550 and 2850 hits, with a BA between .290 and .310. There are five players in that group other than Oliver eligible for the HOF. Tese are the players:

    Richie Ashburn
    Doc Cramer
    Lave Cross
    George Davis
    Steve Garvey

    Two of those are in the HOF (Ashburn and Davis) and the other three aren't. This proves that the fact Oliver had 2743 hits with a .303 BA is not, by itself, a really good reason to put him in the HOF.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 538280
      Those numbers may be worthy of HOF consideration, but I think the key question is whether or not other players with those numbers are in the HOF. I used my Lahman database to make a list of all players in baseball history who have between 2550 and 2850 hits, with a BA between .290 and .310. There are five players in that group other than Oliver eligible for the HOF. Tese are the players:

      Richie Ashburn
      Doc Cramer
      Lave Cross
      George Davis
      Steve Garvey

      Two of those are in the HOF (Ashburn and Davis) and the other three aren't. This proves that the fact Oliver had 2743 hits with a .303 BA is not, by itself, a really good reason to put him in the HOF.
      And how long was it until George Davis got elected?
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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      • #33
        Originally posted by theoldcoastleague
        It sucked that he couldn't find a team in 1986.
        In 1986, MLB teams cut the roster limit from 25 to 24 players. A whole lot of long career utility players saw their careers ended, including Oliver.
        Last edited by Freakshow; 02-02-2006, 06:38 AM.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by theoldcoastleague
          Originally posted by leecemark
          --There is no special significance to being bounced on the first year anyway. Either you deserve to be in the Hal of Fame or you don't. People should vote for non-deserving Hall of Famers because they deserve to linger on the ballot?
          I simply disagree. I could list a hundred players with lesser careers than Al Oliver that stayed on the ballot for years.

          In the Academy awards it's a great honor just to be nominated. I know the HOF ballot is not the Academy Awards but Oliver's .303 BA with 2743 hits are numbers worthy of Hall of Fame consideration.
          Quick. What movies didn't win Best Picture at the 1998 awards show? Ultimately, the point is that it's irrelevant whether he was one and done or 5 and done. Unless you think he actually should be in the hall it really doesn't matter how many years he was one the ballot. Most people don't track how many years x guy was on the ballot without getting in. At best, most people just worry about who's in and who isn't. And whether or not they should be. In 30 years, all that people will know is that Al Oliver isn't in the hall, and probably doesn't deserve to be. The same will go for any guy who lingered at the bottom of the ballot for 5 years.






          And for what it's worth, As Good As It Gets, The Full Monty, Good Will Hunting and L.A. Confidential all did not win Best Picture in 1998. I had to look that up. All I know is that that was the year Titanic did win. I've seen all those movies and own half of them. Without looking, I couldn't have told you they had been nominated.
          sigpic
          5.

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          • #35
            All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL

            Comment


            • #36
              --FS, you got the quote attributed wrong. I don't think it sucked that Oliver couldn't find a team in 1986. He really wasn't very good anymore.
              --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by SABR Matt
                All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL
                True, but we're talking about potential Hall blunders, not Academy blunders It does bring up another flaw in the comparison, though. They were all good movies, all "Hall-worthy" as it were. Al Oliver is more like Austin Powers (another movie that was eligible that year but, strangely, not nominated). Some people like him. He did well. He was a bit above average. But he was not among the best of the best.
                sigpic
                5.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by SABR Matt
                  All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL
                  Especially L.A. Confidential.
                  "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                  Carl Yastrzemski

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by leecemark
                    .
                    --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?
                    I agree 100% with this reasoning. It always makes me question the voting processes of the BBWAA when players get more or less respect in the balloting because of the other players on the ballot.

                    Like for example I've heard numerous media people say that this past year was Jim Rice's last real shot at the Hall because in upcoming years the other players on the ballot are stronger. This has never made sense to me. How do the players around him on the ballot effect Jim Rice? I understand that some writers may change their mind over the years, but it makes me wonder when guys like Sutter start out with under 50% support and eventually are elected with over 75%. Has Bruce Sutter improved his credentials over the past 10 years?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?
                      Don't bring up Eddie Grant and Charlie Gelbert to OldCoastLeague
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Al Oliver and conspiracy theories redux

                        Al hit over .300 four out of his last 5 seasons... Washed up??? Not in my book.

                        Someone said "What's so signifigant about 2800 hits".
                        Only that everyone in the history of baseball with over 2800 hits is in the Hall of Fame.

                        I think Rafael Palmeiro has screwed that up permanently. His 3000 hits won't get him into the hall of fame hopefully. I only wish MLB would have suspended him before he got his 3000th hit so he wouldn't have polluted the 3000 hit club.

                        The major leagues used to have a special code. 500 home runs was sacred, just as 3000 hits was. I believe Dave Kingman and Jose Canseco were blackballed because they would have dishonored the 500 club. Kingman more so. Nobody wanted his .230 lifetime batting average polluting the 500 club. He couldn't find a team after posting 3 straight 30+ home run seasons (100 home runs and 305 RBI his final 3 seasons).

                        If you think baseball is too pure for conspiracy theories, you're just no fun.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by theoldcoastleague
                          Al hit over .300 four out of his last 5 seasons... Washed up??? Not in my book.

                          Someone said "What's so signifigant about 2800 hits".
                          Only that everyone in the history of baseball with over 2800 hits is in the Hall of Fame.

                          I think Rafael Palmeiro has screwed that up permanently. His 3000 hits won't get him into the hall of fame hopefully. I only wish MLB would have suspended him before he got his 3000th hit so he wouldn't have polluted the 3000 hit club.
                          Now, about the 2800 hits Harold Baines is almost certain to ruin that before Raffy does.

                          But anyway, who cares if Oliver hit .300 four of his last five seasons? Is that any better than hitting .300 four of his first five seasons? Oliver peaked much later than most ballplayers, but that really doesn't mean anything. It doesn't matter if Oliver had his peak 20-23 or 35-38. Neither one is more impressive.

                          And you have yet to face your toughest issues on the Oliver issue. All we ever hear is "2743 hits, .303 BA=HOF numbers!". Other players in baseball history who have numbers similar to those, as I showed before, have NOT been all inducted. Only two out of five have been. How about the fact Oliver could never take a walk and didn't have much power for a great OF/1B? You need to face these issues. In making a HOF case for someone you need to highlight their strengths, sure, but you also must face their weaknesses.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                            Don't bring up Eddie Grant and Charlie Gelbert to OldCoastLeague
                            Somehow, this seemed pertinent:
                            Code:
                            Hank Gowdy
                            Year Election Votes Pct 
                            1937  BBWAA  2  1.00  
                            1938  BBWAA  8  3.05  
                            1939  BBWAA  4  1.46  
                            1942  BBWAA  8  3.43  
                            1945  BBWAA  3  1.21  
                            1947  BBWAA  1  0.62  
                            1948  BBWAA  3  2.48  
                            1949  BBWAA  10  6.54  
                            1950  BBWAA   6  3.57  
                            1951  BBWAA  26  11.50  
                            1952  BBWAA  34  14.53  
                            1953  BBWAA  58  21.97  
                            1954  BBWAA  51  20.24  
                            1955  BBWAA  90  35.86  
                            1956  BBWAA  49  25.39  
                            1958  BBWAA  45  16.92  
                            1960  BBWAA  38  14.13
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 538280
                              And you have yet to face your toughest issues on the Oliver issue. All we ever hear is "2743 hits, .303 BA=HOF numbers!". Other players in baseball history who have numbers similar to those, as I showed before, have NOT been all inducted. Only two out of five have been. How about the fact Oliver could never take a walk and didn't have much power for a great OF/1B? You need to face these issues. In making a HOF case for someone you need to highlight their strengths, sure, but you also must face their weaknesses.
                              At one time, I used to tout Oliver as the only eligible player outside the HOF with 200 HR, 2500 hits and a .300 BA. Too lazy to check if that's still true.

                              Anyway, I see him as similar in several ways and ultimately, in value, to Heinie Manush. Manush is among the 30 worst players in the Coop, so it's hard for me to endorse Oliver.
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Freakshow
                                At one time, I used to tout Oliver as the only eligible player outside the HOF with 200 HR, 2500 hits and a .300 BA. Too lazy to check if that's still true.
                                As of 2001 I believe he still is

                                <Anyway, I see him as similar in several ways and ultimately, in value, to Heinie Manush. Manush is among the 30 worst players in the Coop, so it's hard for me to endorse Oliver.>

                                Nah, Oliver was better than Manush. I was thinking Chili Davis (identical OPS+, within a couple hundred plate apps, mediocre basestealer, except Chili never played 1B)
                                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                                Comment

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