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Wes Ferrell vs. Rick Ferrell (Hall of Fame ramblings)

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280 View Post

    Now, about the 2800 hits Harold Baines is almost certain to ruin that before Raffy does.

    But anyway, who cares if Oliver hit .300 four of his last five seasons? Is that any better than hitting .300 four of his first five seasons? Oliver peaked much later than most ballplayers, but that really doesn't mean anything. It doesn't matter if Oliver had his peak 20-23 or 35-38. Neither one is more impressive.

    And you have yet to face your toughest issues on the Oliver issue. All we ever hear is "2743 hits, .303 BA=HOF numbers!". Other players in baseball history who have numbers similar to those, as I showed before, have NOT been all inducted. Only two out of five have been. How about the fact Oliver could never take a walk and didn't have much power for a great OF/1B? You need to face these issues. In making a HOF case for someone you need to highlight their strengths, sure, but you also must face their weaknesses.
    This post was made in 2006.

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  • TomBodet
    replied
    Gotta agree that Oliver was shorted in his Hof case, and Freakshow is closer than Ruthbond: Oliver was about even with Manush, and much more 'like' him than Chili.
    Last edited by TomBodet; 10-12-2012, 06:31 PM.

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  • theoldcoastleague
    replied
    Finally Al gets some love.

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  • leecemark
    replied
    --I think Oliver compares very well offensively to the top CF not in Cooperstown and he is better than some in Cooperstown. The problem with that is Oliver was not a very good defensive CF and gives up some to all of them (ALOT to some of them) in that area. As a 1B/LF his batting stats don't look quite as impressive. He wouldn't be the worst hall of famer by a long shot, but he would be quite clearly in the bottom tier. There are quite a few guys outside who would be closer to the middle of the Hall and at least one (Santo) who would clearly be in the upper half.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by Freakshow
    At one time, I used to tout Oliver as the only eligible player outside the HOF with 200 HR, 2500 hits and a .300 BA. Too lazy to check if that's still true.
    As of 2001 I believe he still is

    <Anyway, I see him as similar in several ways and ultimately, in value, to Heinie Manush. Manush is among the 30 worst players in the Coop, so it's hard for me to endorse Oliver.>

    Nah, Oliver was better than Manush. I was thinking Chili Davis (identical OPS+, within a couple hundred plate apps, mediocre basestealer, except Chili never played 1B)

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  • Freakshow
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    And you have yet to face your toughest issues on the Oliver issue. All we ever hear is "2743 hits, .303 BA=HOF numbers!". Other players in baseball history who have numbers similar to those, as I showed before, have NOT been all inducted. Only two out of five have been. How about the fact Oliver could never take a walk and didn't have much power for a great OF/1B? You need to face these issues. In making a HOF case for someone you need to highlight their strengths, sure, but you also must face their weaknesses.
    At one time, I used to tout Oliver as the only eligible player outside the HOF with 200 HR, 2500 hits and a .300 BA. Too lazy to check if that's still true.

    Anyway, I see him as similar in several ways and ultimately, in value, to Heinie Manush. Manush is among the 30 worst players in the Coop, so it's hard for me to endorse Oliver.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freakshow
    replied
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    Don't bring up Eddie Grant and Charlie Gelbert to OldCoastLeague
    Somehow, this seemed pertinent:
    Code:
    Hank Gowdy
    Year Election Votes Pct 
    1937  BBWAA  2  1.00  
    1938  BBWAA  8  3.05  
    1939  BBWAA  4  1.46  
    1942  BBWAA  8  3.43  
    1945  BBWAA  3  1.21  
    1947  BBWAA  1  0.62  
    1948  BBWAA  3  2.48  
    1949  BBWAA  10  6.54  
    1950  BBWAA   6  3.57  
    1951  BBWAA  26  11.50  
    1952  BBWAA  34  14.53  
    1953  BBWAA  58  21.97  
    1954  BBWAA  51  20.24  
    1955  BBWAA  90  35.86  
    1956  BBWAA  49  25.39  
    1958  BBWAA  45  16.92  
    1960  BBWAA  38  14.13

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by theoldcoastleague
    Al hit over .300 four out of his last 5 seasons... Washed up??? Not in my book.

    Someone said "What's so signifigant about 2800 hits".
    Only that everyone in the history of baseball with over 2800 hits is in the Hall of Fame.

    I think Rafael Palmeiro has screwed that up permanently. His 3000 hits won't get him into the hall of fame hopefully. I only wish MLB would have suspended him before he got his 3000th hit so he wouldn't have polluted the 3000 hit club.
    Now, about the 2800 hits Harold Baines is almost certain to ruin that before Raffy does.

    But anyway, who cares if Oliver hit .300 four of his last five seasons? Is that any better than hitting .300 four of his first five seasons? Oliver peaked much later than most ballplayers, but that really doesn't mean anything. It doesn't matter if Oliver had his peak 20-23 or 35-38. Neither one is more impressive.

    And you have yet to face your toughest issues on the Oliver issue. All we ever hear is "2743 hits, .303 BA=HOF numbers!". Other players in baseball history who have numbers similar to those, as I showed before, have NOT been all inducted. Only two out of five have been. How about the fact Oliver could never take a walk and didn't have much power for a great OF/1B? You need to face these issues. In making a HOF case for someone you need to highlight their strengths, sure, but you also must face their weaknesses.

    Leave a comment:


  • theoldcoastleague
    replied
    Al Oliver and conspiracy theories redux

    Al hit over .300 four out of his last 5 seasons... Washed up??? Not in my book.

    Someone said "What's so signifigant about 2800 hits".
    Only that everyone in the history of baseball with over 2800 hits is in the Hall of Fame.

    I think Rafael Palmeiro has screwed that up permanently. His 3000 hits won't get him into the hall of fame hopefully. I only wish MLB would have suspended him before he got his 3000th hit so he wouldn't have polluted the 3000 hit club.

    The major leagues used to have a special code. 500 home runs was sacred, just as 3000 hits was. I believe Dave Kingman and Jose Canseco were blackballed because they would have dishonored the 500 club. Kingman more so. Nobody wanted his .230 lifetime batting average polluting the 500 club. He couldn't find a team after posting 3 straight 30+ home run seasons (100 home runs and 305 RBI his final 3 seasons).

    If you think baseball is too pure for conspiracy theories, you're just no fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark
    --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?
    Don't bring up Eddie Grant and Charlie Gelbert to OldCoastLeague

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark
    .
    --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?
    I agree 100% with this reasoning. It always makes me question the voting processes of the BBWAA when players get more or less respect in the balloting because of the other players on the ballot.

    Like for example I've heard numerous media people say that this past year was Jim Rice's last real shot at the Hall because in upcoming years the other players on the ballot are stronger. This has never made sense to me. How do the players around him on the ballot effect Jim Rice? I understand that some writers may change their mind over the years, but it makes me wonder when guys like Sutter start out with under 50% support and eventually are elected with over 75%. Has Bruce Sutter improved his credentials over the past 10 years?

    Leave a comment:


  • runningshoes
    replied
    Originally posted by SABR Matt
    All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL
    Especially L.A. Confidential.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scoops
    replied
    Originally posted by SABR Matt
    All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL
    True, but we're talking about potential Hall blunders, not Academy blunders It does bring up another flaw in the comparison, though. They were all good movies, all "Hall-worthy" as it were. Al Oliver is more like Austin Powers (another movie that was eligible that year but, strangely, not nominated). Some people like him. He did well. He was a bit above average. But he was not among the best of the best.

    Leave a comment:


  • leecemark
    replied
    --FS, you got the quote attributed wrong. I don't think it sucked that Oliver couldn't find a team in 1986. He really wasn't very good anymore.
    --I do agree that player less worthy than Oliver often stick around the ballot for a few years. That is just a quirk of the system where some players have a cult following. Oliver was never that popular. The system is not designed to honor players by keeping them on the ballot for awhile though. You vote either "yes he belongs" or "no he doesn't". There is no "he doesn't, but I think he should stay on the ballot out of respect" option. Even if 99% of all writers though Oliver (or anybody else) was almost a Hall of Famer none of them should put him on their ballot. BTW, since when has 2800 hits been a coveted number?

    Leave a comment:


  • SABR Matt
    replied
    All four of those movies were better than Titanic...LOL

    Leave a comment:

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