Ted Williams and Barry Bonds

[JR Hart]

I played high school basketball and ran cross county and track. I pitched Legion baseball for 2 years. I have been a sports broadcaster for many years. I have interviewed coaches and athletes of many sports, male and female.

I can say that baseball players are a unique and peculiar type of athlete. I'm not saying that in a bad way. They are actually a hoot to be around. One has to earn their respect to even have a chance to be in their clique. As a broadcaster, when players find out that I was at one time, a pitcher, who couldn't hit, boy do I get get the business about not being a real player. Of course, I give it right back, saying in my prime, I would have mowed them down. Baseball is a fraternity. They are a unique brand, I think that it's the nature of the game. It's the rituals, the warm-ups, the chatter, the lingo, the pace of the game, the sunflower seeds. Players have to stay focused, but the games are long and players stay in the pseudo-focused zone. Baseball players are a different kind of cat.

[Ubiquitous]

He'd only gain 19 home runs? What program are you using? His ROAD line in reality was .333/.405/.610

Moreover, Schell has his fully adjusted line as .309 BA; 31 HR; .369 OBP; .582 SLG with 429 HR. And that's without his age 28-30 seasons. Even without that, his real slugging was 8 all time among everyone in history who is retired.

And, I don't have Schell's book in front of me, but I think after making all his adjustments Joe D is top 5 all time in slugging percentage. That's including proper/full adjustments for YS handedness....which no one else has done.

He would gain 27 home runs,, an 18% increase home home runs. The numbers are based on the park factor for the various events during Joe's career.

[PRW]

The one reason I probably shouldn't have opened this door is that my time in sports actually ended 17 years ago ... and I got my numbers crossed, I did sports for 20 years before moving on to other things in the media. I can offer a perspective on how things were THEN, have no frame of reference for NOW.

I do think JR put the arrow in the bullseye and nailed it there permanently with his comment on baseball players.

[Victory Faust]

UH Armstrong was stripped of his titles.

Bonds still has his six MVP Awards, all of his records, and was never sanctioned by MLB.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference

Kind of like how the Cincinnati Reds were never stripped of their 1919 world title, but everyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty knows there are huge extenuating circumstances which taint the accomplishment.

As I've said before: It's somewhat amusing watching the pro-Bonds side go through conniptions and logical gymnastics in their effort to make the Bonds numbers seem like they aren't hugely tainted.

[JR Hart]

Kind of like how the Cincinnati Reds were never stripped of their 1919 world title, but everyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty knows there are huge extenuating circumstances which taint the accomplishment.

As I've said before: It's somewhat amusing watching the pro-Bonds side go through conniptions and logical gymnastics in their effort to make the Bonds numbers seem like they aren't hugely tainted.

Why should the Reds be stripped of their title? They tried to win. They deserve it.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I played high school basketball and ran cross county and track. I pitched Legion baseball for 2 years. I have been a sports broadcaster for many years. I have interviewed coaches and athletes of many sports, male and female.

I can say that baseball players are a unique and peculiar type of athlete. I'm not saying that in a bad way. They are actually a hoot to be around. One has to earn their respect to even have a chance to be in their clique. As a broadcaster, when players find out that I was at one time, a pitcher, who couldn't hit, boy do I get get the business about not being a real player. Of course, I give it right back, saying in my prime, I would have mowed them down. Baseball is a fraternity. They are a unique brand, I think that it's the nature of the game. It's the rituals, the warm-ups, the chatter, the lingo, the pace of the game, the sunflower seeds. Players have to stay focused, but the games are long and players stay in the pseudo-focused zone. Baseball players are a different kind of cat.

How could this post possibly be made by the same fella who posted this

UH Armstrong was stripped of his titles.

Bonds still has his six MVP Awards, all of his records, and was never sanctioned by MLB.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference

Do you know what the difference is?

Baseball does not want to create a slippery slope. If that were the case, they'd go back and remove Caminiti's MVP and crown a new one. Doesn't work like that. Things happen as they do, and it's UP TO US to put things into perspective. We know those MVPs were bogus, and we know Albert should have two more MVP awards. We don't need big brother to come "strip away" anything.

[Victory Faust]

How could this post possibly be made by the same fella who posted this



Do you know what the difference is?

Baseball does not want to create a slippery slope. If that were the case, they'd go back and remove Caminiti's MVP and crown a new one. Doesn't work like that. Things happen as they do, and it's UP TO US to put things into perspective. We know those MVPs were bogus, and we know Albert should have two more MVP awards. We don't need big brother to come "strip away" anything.

Exactly. It's a matter of being intellectually honest. It's obvious some of the Bonds fanboys aren't willing to do that, and are going to ridiculous lengths to make out as though their hero's numbers are completely legit, and should be taken at face value....because, you know, Barry hit 73 home runs and that's all there is to the discussion, because it's right there in black and white in the record book, and there are no extenuating circumstances. Because, you know, that's what's in the record book and stuff.

[pheasant]

Using Bonds steroid stats at face value greatly diminishes his true talent. However, we have a definitive timeline on Bonds. He was clean through the 1998 season, then juiced afterwards. When I analyze the players that juiced, they saw a MINIMUM 30+ pt increase in OPS+, despite the fact that many should have been in their decline period. That number is conservatively on the low side too. Even using a conservatively low number of a 30 OPS+ pt increase for juicers, that means that that clean-Bonds' OPS+ was affected by about 7 pts alone due to steroids in the 1990s. I personally believe the bump for clean players should be closer to 10 pts. That'd put his OPS+ near 190 for his historic 1990-1998 run. Toss steroids aside, I still think the modern era has the best LQ.

With that being said, I have Pujols already in my top 10. Griffey Jr was robbed by the steroid era too and he cracks my top 15. But Bonds' actual 181 OPS+ over a 9 year span while clean is easily a top 5 run in the history of the game, just in the hitting department. Toss in great baserunning and 8 legit Gold Gloves and you have a phenomenal player sans the steroids.

The last time anybody put up a 9 year string of 181 OPS+ while clean was Mantle, who played in a league that was barely integrated. Similarly, Bonds put up back-to-back 200 OPS+ seasons. Once again, Mantle was the last player before him to accomplish this feat.

60% of the guys in my top 30 rankings played in the 1980s or later. Unlike others, I am more biased towards the modern players.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't bother trying to some how figure how much PED use boosted Barry's numbers.
I only know no one ever averaged a home run frequency of every 8 at bats for five seasons, in their prime.
Barry did it from age 36 to 40, hey guys do we need any more hints.
Closing in on 40, a home run ever 8 at bats, five seasons, he couldn't hold that frequency for even one season, in his prime.
Do you realize what that frequency does for your slugging percentage, all those bases gained per at bat.

Skip all the projections, we've see at least a dozen members take on what his number may have been, all different, so who is correct.

[Victory Faust]

I don't bother trying to some how figure how much PED use boosted Barry's numbers.
I only know no one ever averaged a home run frequency of every 8 at bats for five seasons, in their prime.
Barry did it from age 36 to 40, hey guys do we need any more hints.
Closing in on 40, a home run ever 8 at bats, five seasons, he couldn't hold that frequency for even one season, in his prime.
Do you realize what that frequency does for your slugging percentage, all those bases gained per at bat.

Skip all the projections, we've see at least a dozen members take on what his number may have been, all different, so who is correct.

It's a completely subjective exercise. Me? I simply throw out his entire career as if it never happened. Why? Because he's a cheating, racist scumbag who wasn't happy being one of the best all-around players ever.

I can almost (almost!) forgive a player who uses steroids to avoid going down to the minor leagues. I've said before: If I knew I could inject a substance into my butt that would allow the next 20 generations of my family to live like kings, I'd do it in a minute! (With the full knowledge that, if I got caught, it would invalidate my entire career).

But Bonds? He already was rich. He already had made his mark on the game. His use of steroids, if the reports are accurate, was borne of petty jealousy. So I disregard his entire career. Barry Bonds was a stain on the game, and as far as I'm concerned, his entire career is a sham.

You can disagree with me if you want, but you'll never change my mind about this.

[csh19792001]

I'm not so much interested in any salacious stuff that was left out of the Mays book as I am in the fact that MAYS was left out of it. It was about as compelling as reading the classified ads. Massive disappointment IMO.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/book-re...zed-biography/

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...mays-greatness

[PRW]

I see the writer in the first link was sort of in tune with me on it. As far as the 2nd link, good stuff about the greatness of Willie. I said my piece in the Gehrig/Pujols thread about rating players across eras, doesn't mean I won't offer my .02, Willie is my No.2 behind Ruth.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/book-re...zed-biography/

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...mays-greatness

[csh19792001]

Bonds is an extremely smart guy.

What are you basing this on? And can you provide links/quotes to reinforce this?

Thx.

[Los Bravos]

Just my impression from watching and reading him being interviewed and knowing the opinions of people who've played with and against him. I just don't think you become the well rounded MVP quality player he was in the '90's without a huge amount of intelligence.

I can't exactly "prove" it, as such, but I'm very confident in the veracity of my opinion.