I know we've had a gazillion threads on George Sisler, and don't really need another, but I am curious why there is such a disparity in the way people rank him. It seems that almost everyone either has him as a great player, top 40, let's say, or out of the top 100, maybe top 150.
I would like the people who either rank Sisler in their top 40, or out of their top 100, to explain in detail why they feel this way. I am limiting the poll to these two choices, because I am interested in the polarizing nature of Sisler when it comes to ranking him. If you put Sisler somewhere in between, that's fine, but that's not what the thread is about.
Surely someone has a copy of the book, "The Sizzler," so if anyone can give us some stories on Sisler that might help explain why he is viewed as an all-time great by so many, it would help.
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I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)
Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...e.htm#database
On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
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If you enjoy this photo gallery, you might also like our other ones, too.
Historical, Archival Photographs---Pre-1900---Negro L.---Vintage Panoramic Pictures---Members' Gallery---Runningshoes Presents: Photo Op---Meet The Sports Writers
Photos of the following individual players---Hank Aaron---Pete Alexander---Ty Cobb---Eddie Collins---Sam Crawford---Jimmy Foxx---Lou Gehrig---Rickey Henderson---Rogers Hornsby---Joe Jackson---Walter Johnson---Nap Lajoie---Connie Mack---John McGraw---Mickey Mantle---Christy Mathewson---Willie Mays---Mel Ott---Babe Ruth---George Sisler---Tris Speaker---Pie Traynor---Rube Waddell--- Honus Wagner---Ted Williams---Zack Wheat---Rare Ty Cobb ---Rare Babe Ruth---Bill's Babe Ruth---Rare Ted Williams---Bill's Rare Finds ---Babefan's Fantastic Vintage Baseball photos---GaryL's Boston Public Library Baseball Photo Project
We also have some very nice, attractive team photo collections---New York Yankees---New York Giants---Detroit Tigers---Pittsburgh Pirates---Brooklyn Dodgers
George's Relative Stats:
----Relative BA-----Rel.Slg.-------Rel.Onbase----Rel.ISO-------OPS+
----118.9 (31rd)------117-------------106---------------------124 (239th)
Hitting Stats Comparison Chart:
Sisler, Mantle, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, T. Williams, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.
leecemark; October 30, 2004, 08:01 AM
--Congratulations to Lou Gehrig for his easy and well deserved win here. Foxx was just as easy a second place winner. The big question was who is the third best firstbaseman of all time and our group selected Hank Greenberg for that spot. The most debated issue was whether George Sisler was an all time great or an all time overrated player. The majority here tended to vote closer to great than overrated, as Sisler was voted into the 5th slot. Here are the top 10.
1. Lou Gehrig 129
2. Jimmie Foxx 115
3. Hank Greenberg 67.5
4. Johnny Mize 60
5. George Sisler 50
6. Jeff Bagwell 37
7. Willie McCovey 36
8. Frank Thomas 35.5
9. Mark McGwire 35
10. Dan Brouthers 32
--I was surprised by the lack of support for Eddie Murray who has better counting numbers than pretty much all these guys. Of course, he wasn't quite as good at his peak as any of them and nowhere near as good as some of them. I also was surprised by Harmon Killebrew's low vote totals. He is pretty similar to the McCovey, Thomas, McGwire group and probably more consistent over the course of his career than any of them. Also, while Killebrew wasn't a great defender, he was probably the best of that group (maybe the best baserunner too, although that is a dubious distinction here).
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538280; October 29, 07:05 AM
The results are now in. We had 18 ballots, and Lou Gehrig was a near unanimous #1 with 17 first place votes (there was also one first place vote for George Sisler). After the automatic two of Gehrig and Foxx, Frank Thomas claimed the #3 spot, and was closely followed by Jeff Bagwell at #4. Here are the final results (first place votes in parenthesis):
1. Lou Gehrig-213 (17)
2. Jimmie Foxx-159
3. Frank Thomas-96
4. Jeff Bagwell-94
5. Hank Greenberg-79
6. Eddie Murray-54
7. Johnny Mize-53
8. Willie McCovey-51
9. George Sisler-40 (1)
10. Cap Anson-28
11. Buck Leonard-23
12. Harmon Killebrew-20
No one else received more than 20 points. I'll now get the second basemen poll up.
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Bill Burgess; April 22, 2007, 02:45 PM
1. Lou Gehrig - 150 points
2. Jimmy Foxx - 141
3. Jeff Bagwell - 98
4. Hank Greenberg - 65
5. Johnny Mize - 57
6. Willie McCovey - 53
7. Frank Thomas - 53
8. George Sisler - 42
9. Cap Anson - 32
10. Eddie Murray - 25
11. Harmon Killebrew - 24
12. Dan Brouthers - 20
13. Bill Terry - 15
14. Mark McGwire - 12
15. Dick Allen - 7
16. Roger Connor - 4
17. Jake Beckley - 4
18. Rafael Palmeiro - 2
Lou Gehrig - 154.0 - 2 SLG. titles - 9954 PA - 179 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 230. Ave. held up well, of course due to lack of decline phase, hence low PA. Only won 2 titles.
Jimmie Foxx - 143.7 - 5 SLG. titles - 9,599 PA - 163 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 214. Too few PA relative to Aaron/Mays
----------------------
...............OPS+....EqA.....BRAR....BRAR/650 PA
Gehrig.........179.....345......1219........82.02
Brouthers.....170....324.......780........66.21
Pujols..........171....343.......515........82.41
Foxx...........163.....327......1012........68.02
F.Thomas....160.....342......1146.......81.31
D.Allen........156.....325.......801........71.19
McCovey.....148.....318.......960........64.42
-------------------------------------------------
Relative ISO:
Lou Gehrig: 230
Mark McGwire: 223
Hank Greenberg: 220
Jimmy Foxx: 214
Johnny Mize 209
Dick Allen: 198
Willie McCovey: 192
Harmon Killebrew: 190
Albert Pujols: 182 (6 seasons)
Frank Howard 175
Frank Thomas: 169
Rafael Palmeiro: 149
Eddie Murray: 138
---------------------------------------------------
Relative ISO: Some Pre-1920 hitters:
Dan Brouthers 178
Roger Connor 172
Cap Anson 121
All-Time list for OPS+ (baseball-Reference)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml
Relative Stats Chart:
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=161
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Courtesy of David Kent. Here is a list of the top 100 sluggers of all time based on relative isolated power (min 5000 AB). The values are league adjusted but not park adjusted. (NB: If someone has park factor values for average and slugging, I would love to see it.)
Source: Fourth from Top, Right: Baseball: 100 Years of The Modern Era: 1901-2000: From the Archives of The Sporting News, edited by Joe Hoppel, 2001, pp. 53.
--------George Sisler, Browns' 1B, 1916-22-------------------------------1916-22---BB Ref---Bill Burgess' write-up

Browns' 1B, 1926 ----------------------------------------------------------1920

----------------1919, Sportsman's Park

---- Browns' 1B, 1916-23----------------------------------------------------------1916-27

George Sisler, Browns' 1B, 1916-21--------------------------------------------------------------1916-23

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1915-22

-------------1928, Washington Senators' 1B------------------------------------------------1916-27

Source: Top, Left: Special Baseball Classics (Magazine): 1977, pp. 4.
Source: Top, Right: Shadows of Summer: Classic Baseball Photographs, 1869-1947, by Donald Honig, 1994, pp. 25.
Source: Second from Top, Right: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 163.
Source: Third from Top, Left: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 154.
Source: Third from Top, Right: The Story of Baseball, by John Durant, 1949, pp. 250.
Source: Fourth from Top, Right: Baseball's Dream Teams, by Lloyd Johnson, 1990, pp. 47.
-----------------September 17, 1921------------------------------------------March 31, 1921, spring training, New Orleans, La.

-------------------------1926

--------------------1930.
I would like the people who either rank Sisler in their top 40, or out of their top 100, to explain in detail why they feel this way. I am limiting the poll to these two choices, because I am interested in the polarizing nature of Sisler when it comes to ranking him. If you put Sisler somewhere in between, that's fine, but that's not what the thread is about.
Surely someone has a copy of the book, "The Sizzler," so if anyone can give us some stories on Sisler that might help explain why he is viewed as an all-time great by so many, it would help.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)
Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...e.htm#database
On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you enjoy this photo gallery, you might also like our other ones, too.
Historical, Archival Photographs---Pre-1900---Negro L.---Vintage Panoramic Pictures---Members' Gallery---Runningshoes Presents: Photo Op---Meet The Sports Writers
Photos of the following individual players---Hank Aaron---Pete Alexander---Ty Cobb---Eddie Collins---Sam Crawford---Jimmy Foxx---Lou Gehrig---Rickey Henderson---Rogers Hornsby---Joe Jackson---Walter Johnson---Nap Lajoie---Connie Mack---John McGraw---Mickey Mantle---Christy Mathewson---Willie Mays---Mel Ott---Babe Ruth---George Sisler---Tris Speaker---Pie Traynor---Rube Waddell--- Honus Wagner---Ted Williams---Zack Wheat---Rare Ty Cobb ---Rare Babe Ruth---Bill's Babe Ruth---Rare Ted Williams---Bill's Rare Finds ---Babefan's Fantastic Vintage Baseball photos---GaryL's Boston Public Library Baseball Photo Project
We also have some very nice, attractive team photo collections---New York Yankees---New York Giants---Detroit Tigers---Pittsburgh Pirates---Brooklyn Dodgers
George's Relative Stats:
----Relative BA-----Rel.Slg.-------Rel.Onbase----Rel.ISO-------OPS+
----118.9 (31rd)------117-------------106---------------------124 (239th)
Hitting Stats Comparison Chart:
Sisler, Mantle, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, T. Williams, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.
Code:
Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0 2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1 3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2 4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1 5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1 6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1 Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11 2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3 3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1 4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1 5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0 6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0 Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6 2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2 3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2 4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1 5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0 6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0 Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league---8----4----4----2---2----5---4----7----9----9----0---3--12 2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1 3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0 4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0 5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0 6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1 Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13 2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1 3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2 4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0 5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0 6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0 Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3 2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6 3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3 4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0 5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0 6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0 Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9 2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1 3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3 4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0 5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0 6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0 Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6 2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1 3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5 4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2 5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0 6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1 Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8 2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3 3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1 4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0 5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0 6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0 Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3 2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4 3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4 4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1 5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1 6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2 Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1 2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4 3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2 4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0 5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1 6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0 Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1 2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4 3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5 4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3 5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3 6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0 Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3 2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3 3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0 4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1 5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0 6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4 Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6 2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4 3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0 4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3 5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0 6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1 Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0 2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1 3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2 4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2 5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3 6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0 Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2 3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4 4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3 5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0 6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1 J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0 2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3 3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2 4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1 5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3 6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0 Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0 2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1 3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1 4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1 5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2 6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1 Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1 2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1 3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2 4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1 5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0 6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1 J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+ led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5 2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2 3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0 4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3 5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1 6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0 Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1 3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1 4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0 5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0 6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1 Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6 2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1 3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2 4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1 5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1 6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0 Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4 2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1 3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0 4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0 5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0 6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1 Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1 2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2 3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1 4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3 5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3 6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1 Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9 2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3 3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2 4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0 5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1 6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0 B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1 2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0 3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1 4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0 5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0 6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0 Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0 2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0 3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0 4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2 5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0 6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0 Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0 2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1 3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2 4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5 5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2 6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0 Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0 2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0 3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0 4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0 5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0 6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1 Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0 2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0 3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1 4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1 5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0 6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1 Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1 2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2 3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1 4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1 5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0 6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0 Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0 2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4 3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1 4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2 5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0 6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0 Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0 2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0 3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1 4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4 5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0 6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1 R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4 2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1 3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0 4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1 5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1 6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1 Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1 2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2 3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0 4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2 5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0 6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1 Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0 2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0 3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0 4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0 5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0 6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1 Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8 2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1 3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2 4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0 5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0 6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0 Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4 2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3 3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1 4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1 5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1 6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1 Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2 2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5 3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2 4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0 5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0 6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0 Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3 2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0 3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0 4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0 5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2 6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0 F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4 2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1 3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1 4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1 5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7 6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1 Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0 2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0 3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0 4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0 5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1 6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0 Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+ led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1 2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1 3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2 4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0 5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0 6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1 Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0 3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2 4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1 5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1 6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1 Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0 2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1 3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0 4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1 5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2 6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0 Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1 3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0 4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0 5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0 6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0 Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0 3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1 4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0 5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0 6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1 Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0 3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0 4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2 5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1 6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0 Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+ led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0 2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1 3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0 4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1 5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0 6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0 Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+ led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1 2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1 3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0 4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0 5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0 6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---0
--Congratulations to Lou Gehrig for his easy and well deserved win here. Foxx was just as easy a second place winner. The big question was who is the third best firstbaseman of all time and our group selected Hank Greenberg for that spot. The most debated issue was whether George Sisler was an all time great or an all time overrated player. The majority here tended to vote closer to great than overrated, as Sisler was voted into the 5th slot. Here are the top 10.
1. Lou Gehrig 129
2. Jimmie Foxx 115
3. Hank Greenberg 67.5
4. Johnny Mize 60
5. George Sisler 50
6. Jeff Bagwell 37
7. Willie McCovey 36
8. Frank Thomas 35.5
9. Mark McGwire 35
10. Dan Brouthers 32
--I was surprised by the lack of support for Eddie Murray who has better counting numbers than pretty much all these guys. Of course, he wasn't quite as good at his peak as any of them and nowhere near as good as some of them. I also was surprised by Harmon Killebrew's low vote totals. He is pretty similar to the McCovey, Thomas, McGwire group and probably more consistent over the course of his career than any of them. Also, while Killebrew wasn't a great defender, he was probably the best of that group (maybe the best baserunner too, although that is a dubious distinction here).
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538280; October 29, 07:05 AM
The results are now in. We had 18 ballots, and Lou Gehrig was a near unanimous #1 with 17 first place votes (there was also one first place vote for George Sisler). After the automatic two of Gehrig and Foxx, Frank Thomas claimed the #3 spot, and was closely followed by Jeff Bagwell at #4. Here are the final results (first place votes in parenthesis):
1. Lou Gehrig-213 (17)
2. Jimmie Foxx-159
3. Frank Thomas-96
4. Jeff Bagwell-94
5. Hank Greenberg-79
6. Eddie Murray-54
7. Johnny Mize-53
8. Willie McCovey-51
9. George Sisler-40 (1)
10. Cap Anson-28
11. Buck Leonard-23
12. Harmon Killebrew-20
No one else received more than 20 points. I'll now get the second basemen poll up.
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Bill Burgess; April 22, 2007, 02:45 PM
1. Lou Gehrig - 150 points
2. Jimmy Foxx - 141
3. Jeff Bagwell - 98
4. Hank Greenberg - 65
5. Johnny Mize - 57
6. Willie McCovey - 53
7. Frank Thomas - 53
8. George Sisler - 42
9. Cap Anson - 32
10. Eddie Murray - 25
11. Harmon Killebrew - 24
12. Dan Brouthers - 20
13. Bill Terry - 15
14. Mark McGwire - 12
15. Dick Allen - 7
16. Roger Connor - 4
17. Jake Beckley - 4
18. Rafael Palmeiro - 2
Code:
Top OPS+ seasons of some prominent 1Bmen.
(Minimum 500 PA, except for pre-1900, due to fewer games/season.)
Lou Gehrig........221, 208, 203, 195, 194, 190 Average: 202
Dan Brouthers.....206, 201, 199, 189, 187, 182 Average: 194
Jimmie Foxx.......205, 200, 188, 186, 182, 182 Average: 191
Frank Thomas..-...212, 181, 180, 178, 178, 177 Average: 184
Mark McGwire......217, 203, 178, 175, 168, 164 Average: 184
Cap Anson.........200, 191, 180, 178, 176, 176 Average: 183(fewer games/season due to era)
Roger Connor......201, 185, 184, 176, 171, 168 Average: 181
Willie McCovey....211, 182, 175, 165, 161, 160 Average: 176
Dick Allen........200, 181, 174, 166, 165, 162 Average: 175
Jeff Bagwell......213, 179, 169, 168, 158, 152 Average: 173
Albert Pujols.....189, 180, 175, 167, 158, 155 Average: 170
Johnny Mize.......178, 176, 175, 172, 161, 160 Average: 170
Hank Greenberg....172, 170, 170, 169, 163, 156 Average: 166
Harmon Killebrew..179, 174, 161, 161, 158, 153 Average: 164
George Sisler.....181, 170, 161, 157, 154, 140 Average: 161
Bill Terry........158, 156, 149, 141, 137, 135 Average: 146
Ted Kluszewski....166, 147, 145, 142, 132, 124 Average: 142
Gil Hodges........143, 142, 141, 138, 128, 126 Average: 136
Jimmie Foxx - 143.7 - 5 SLG. titles - 9,599 PA - 163 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 214. Too few PA relative to Aaron/Mays
----------------------
...............OPS+....EqA.....BRAR....BRAR/650 PA
Gehrig.........179.....345......1219........82.02
Brouthers.....170....324.......780........66.21
Pujols..........171....343.......515........82.41
Foxx...........163.....327......1012........68.02
F.Thomas....160.....342......1146.......81.31
D.Allen........156.....325.......801........71.19
McCovey.....148.....318.......960........64.42
-------------------------------------------------
Relative ISO:
Lou Gehrig: 230
Mark McGwire: 223
Hank Greenberg: 220
Jimmy Foxx: 214
Johnny Mize 209
Dick Allen: 198
Willie McCovey: 192
Harmon Killebrew: 190
Albert Pujols: 182 (6 seasons)
Frank Howard 175
Frank Thomas: 169
Rafael Palmeiro: 149
Eddie Murray: 138
---------------------------------------------------
Relative ISO: Some Pre-1920 hitters:
Dan Brouthers 178
Roger Connor 172
Cap Anson 121
All-Time list for OPS+ (baseball-Reference)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml
Relative Stats Chart:
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=161
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtesy of David Kent. Here is a list of the top 100 sluggers of all time based on relative isolated power (min 5000 AB). The values are league adjusted but not park adjusted. (NB: If someone has park factor values for average and slugging, I would love to see it.)
Code:
Player AB Slg Avg ISO Rel ISO ------------------------------------------------------- Lou Gehrig 8001 0.632 0.340 0.292 227.6 Hank Greenberg 5193 0.605 0.313 0.292 223.1 Mark McGwire 6187 0.588 0.263 0.325 217.1 Jimmie Foxx 8134 0.609 0.325 0.284 215.6 Johnny Mize 6443 0.562 0.312 0.250 209.8 Dick Allen 6332 0.534 0.292 0.242 199.2 Willie McCovey 8197 0.515 0.270 0.245 192.3 Harmon Killebrew 8147 0.509 0.256 0.252 190.8 Dan Brouthers 6711 0.519 0.342 0.177 181.2 Frank Howard 6488 0.499 0.273 0.225 175.3 Roger Connor 7794 0.486 0.317 0.169 171.6 Frank Thomas 6851 0.567 0.308 0.259 168.3 Norm Cash 6705 0.488 0.271 0.217 165.2 Cecil Fielder 5157 0.482 0.255 0.227 157.6 Jeff Bagwell 7697 0.542 0.297 0.245 157.6 Jim Bottomley 7471 0.500 0.310 0.191 156.2 Boog Powell 6681 0.462 0.266 0.196 153.9
--------George Sisler, Browns' 1B, 1916-22-------------------------------1916-22---BB Ref---Bill Burgess' write-up

Browns' 1B, 1926 ----------------------------------------------------------1920

----------------1919, Sportsman's Park

---- Browns' 1B, 1916-23----------------------------------------------------------1916-27

George Sisler, Browns' 1B, 1916-21--------------------------------------------------------------1916-23

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1915-22

-------------1928, Washington Senators' 1B------------------------------------------------1916-27

Source: Top, Left: Special Baseball Classics (Magazine): 1977, pp. 4.
Source: Top, Right: Shadows of Summer: Classic Baseball Photographs, 1869-1947, by Donald Honig, 1994, pp. 25.
Source: Second from Top, Right: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 163.
Source: Third from Top, Left: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 154.
Source: Third from Top, Right: The Story of Baseball, by John Durant, 1949, pp. 250.
Source: Fourth from Top, Right: Baseball's Dream Teams, by Lloyd Johnson, 1990, pp. 47.
-----------------September 17, 1921------------------------------------------March 31, 1921, spring training, New Orleans, La.

-------------------------1926

--------------------1930.

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