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1970s vs. 1930s-Top Level Talent

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  • #46
    Originally posted by yest
    No Frisch?
    Frisch was a 20s player. By the 30s he had already entered his decline phase.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ElHalo
      I'm in a weird position having to defend Trosky; I'm not a huge Trosky fan or anything. But, like a lot of players, Trosky suffers in OPS because he didn't draw walks. When a player can do a lot of other things on offense, but can't really draw walks (like, say, Traynor, Sisler, Ichiro, etc., etc.), I don't hold it against them, and I'll feel that they're a lot better offensive players than guys who get higher OPS+'s from drawing walks, but aren't as skilled at other offensive areas. McCovey was only 9 points over league average in BA, but his OBP rises over his BA by 104 points from walks. That, to me, is a sign of empty offense, and it shows a guy who wasn't anywhere near as good as his numbers. You might disagree.
      I disagree big time, and so do the MVP voters of each's respective era, who always get blasted for their lack of sabermetric acumen.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by SABR Matt
        EH...you think Carter is the third worst defensive catcher in the hall??? WOW! Where on EARTH did you get THAT impression??
        Reading up on reputations. Not saying he's terrible, but from what I've been able to gather, his reputation pegs him as solidly above average, but not all timey... somewhere in the Bengie Molina, third tier of greatness level. If you look at the C's in the Hall, Ewing, Bresnahan, Cochrane, Schalk, Berra, and Bench had outstanding, transcendent defensive reps. Don't know enough about King Kelly to say one way or the other; Cochrane, Hartnett, and Campy had reps just a notch below that; and Dickey, while not having a rep for tremendous physical skills, was known as an all timer at pitch calling and handling his pitching staff. That leaves Ferrell, Fisk, and Lombardi. Ferrell and Lombardi I definitely rank at the bottom; whether Carter is better than Fisk I see as a judgment call, and go with Fisk. I really don't think Carter is a HoF'er; it really shocked and disappointed me when he got it.
        "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

        Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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        • #49
          --Carter, had a good enough reputation to win 3 Gold Glove (DWS FWIW says he should have won more). Of course, winning the GG doesn't really assure me that a guy was a great defender, but it generally means they were a good one - at least at some point of their career. I remember him as having a great arm and he was known for being a good handler of pitchers (for sure the Expos and Mets and very successfull staffs). Teams still wanted Carter behind the bat after his bat went limp, so that suggests he was valued for his catching skills.
          --Eric Gregg, who was an ump in the NL for a long time and got to see all the catchers of Carters generation, thought Carter was the best defensive catcher of the era. He put him ahead of Johnny Bench. I disagree, but Gregg did have a better and more frequent view than I or anybody else commenting here did.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by leecemark
            --Carter, had a good enough reputation to win 3 Gold Glove (DWS FWIW says he should have won more). Of course, winning the GG doesn't really assure me that a guy was a great defender, but it generally means they were a good one - at least at some point of their career. I remember him as having a great arm and he was known for being a good handler of pitchers (for sure the Expos and Mets and very successfull staffs). Teams still wanted Carter behind the bat after his bat went limp, so that suggests he was valued for his catching skills.
            Right, and I'm not saying he's bad. But with the exceptions of Fisk, Dickey, Ferrell, and Lombardi, everybody in the Hall had reputations as being all timish great defensive guys. Carter, while he had a great reputation, didn't.
            "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

            Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

            Comment


            • #51
              Frisch is more 30's then Torre's catcher

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              • #52
                --EH, I think Rick Ferrell actually had a better defensive rep than Dickey when both were active. Dickey has "improved" defensively since he retired by virtue of his being a Yankee legend. Ferrell, being mostly famous as a horrid HoF choice (which he was - we can at least agree on the worst catcher in Cooperstown), has lost much of whatever luster he once had.

                Comment


                • #53
                  One thing that's been missing from this discussion is how these guys did in their respective decades.. I decided to take the top 20 in win shares in each decade from the Win Shares book and add in players from lower in the rankings to fill in the lineup. Here's what I got:

                  Position.....1930's............................... .1970's
                  c..............Dickey 230..........................Bench 263
                  ................Hartnett 209.......................T Simmons 224
                  1b.............Gehrig 323.................1b/2b Carew 245
                  ...............Foxx 314...........................Perez 217
                  2b............Gehringer 270......................Morgan 315
                  ...............Herman 196.........................Grich 202
                  ...............Myer 183
                  of/3b........Ott 323......................of/3b Rose 288
                  3b............Hack 142...........................Nettles 222
                  .................................................. .....Bando 220
                  ss.............Vaughan 249......................Harrah 172
                  ................Cronin 249.........................Concepcion 166
                  of..............P Waner 253......................R Jackson 262
                  .................Berger 240........................Bob Bonds 249
                  .................A Simmons 211..................Murcer 243
                  .................Medwick 207.....................Otis 237
                  .................B Chapman 202..................Singleton 231
                  .................Klein 198....................of/1b Stargell 230
                  p...............Grove 262.........................Palmer 235
                  .................Hubbell 243.......................Seaver 230
                  .................Ruffing 205.......................G Perry 222
                  .................Ferrell 205........................Niekro 214
                  .................Harder 188.......................Jenkins 204
                  .................Dean 179.........................Carlton 202
                  .................French 175.......................Blyleven 192
                  .................Gomez 173.......................Sutton 168

                  Third base muddies things, because if you wanted all-decade teams, you'd want to use Ott and Rose as I have to cover the spot if you focused solely on play in the decade. Both men did play the spot in the decade for at least a full year. After that, I'll leave the interpretation to you guys.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ElHalo
                    Reading up on reputations. Not saying he's terrible, but from what I've been able to gather, his reputation pegs him as solidly above average, but not all timey... somewhere in the Bengie Molina, third tier of greatness level. If you look at the C's in the Hall, Ewing, Bresnahan, Cochrane, Schalk, Berra, and Bench had outstanding, transcendent defensive reps. Don't know enough about King Kelly to say one way or the other; Cochrane, Hartnett, and Campy had reps just a notch below that; and Dickey, while not having a rep for tremendous physical skills, was known as an all timer at pitch calling and handling his pitching staff. That leaves Ferrell, Fisk, and Lombardi. Ferrell and Lombardi I definitely rank at the bottom; whether Carter is better than Fisk I see as a judgment call, and go with Fisk. I really don't think Carter is a HoF'er; it really shocked and disappointed me when he got it.
                    "Solidly above average"?? I'm no fan of Gary Carter but I have to admit that his defensive play was pretty darn good...well above average.

                    One more thing Yogi Berra was not reputed to be an outstanding defensive catcher. When he first came up he was so bad behind the plate the Yanks had him play in the OF to get his bat in the line-up.
                    Bill Dickey was bought in to tutor Berra. Don't you recall one of Yogi's sayings, " Bill is learning me all his experience." Yogi, with Dickey's help, became a solid defensive catcher but he was never considered 'great'.

                    Cochrane, Hartnett, and especially Campanella were excelleny defensive catchers. Campy was clearly much better defensively that Yogi could ever hope to have been.

                    Plus, I think you are vastly under estimating Rick Ferrell's defensive ability.

                    All I know if that you and I must read diffrent books and/or interpret the numbers in different manners.
                    Last edited by yanks0714; 02-05-2006, 10:08 AM.

                    Yankees Fan Since 1957

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by yest
                      Frisch is more 30's then Torre's catcher

                      Here's how I look at determining what decade a player belongs in: The Forham Flash played the entire decade of the 20's. He did not play the entire decade of the 20's....therefore he belongs in the decade of the 20's.
                      Simple.

                      In Torre's case, in which decade did he play the most? In a related question, which decade did he do most of his catching? Whichever decade you can answer both questions to is where he belongs regardless of when Frisch played which is irrelevant to the Torre question.

                      Also, if Torre played more in another decade, but NOT as a catcher, then you shouldn't rank him as a catcher for THAT decade but rank him at the postion he actually played.
                      Again...simple.

                      Yankees Fan Since 1957

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by leecemark
                        --EH, I think Rick Ferrell actually had a better defensive rep than Dickey when both were active. Dickey has "improved" defensively since he retired by virtue of his being a Yankee legend. Ferrell, being mostly famous as a horrid HoF choice (which he was - we can at least agree on the worst catcher in Cooperstown), has lost much of whatever luster he once had.
                        Right; well, you saw I put Dickey on my list of guys without the stellar reps. The thing is, the main reason Dickey gets defensive credit is somewhat similar to what you said, but not just from being a "Yankee legend" (most Yankee fans I know have probably never heard of the guy). The major portion of his reputation upswing came from Yogi Berra (who most people agree was a pretty all right defensive catcher). Yogi claimed that Dickey was a genius at game management, and tought him a strategy that was largely responsible for his excellent ability to handle the staff. That definitely boosted Dickey's star as far as defense goes.
                        "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                        Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          --Well, being a good catching coach doesn't make him a great defensive catcher or even a good one. Leo Mazzone may be the best pitching coach in the history of the game. He wasn't a good pitcher himself, so far as I know.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by leecemark
                            --Well, being a good catching coach doesn't make him a great defensive catcher or even a good one. Leo Mazzone may be the best pitching coach in the history of the game. He wasn't a good pitcher himself, so far as I know.
                            This is absolutely true, and for most positions, I'd agree with you 100%. But what defines a good defensive catcher is pretty nebulus, and it doesn't necessarily have 100% to do with physical skills. Calling a good game and handling the pitching staff is a big chunk of what a catcher does that defines how good his defense is, and if a guy is good at coaching those aspects, then I certainly think that that can be assumed to correlate to his skills at performing them.
                            "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                            Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ElHalo
                              This is absolutely true, and for most positions, I'd agree with you 100%. But what defines a good defensive catcher is pretty nebulus, and it doesn't necessarily have 100% to do with physical skills. Calling a good game and handling the pitching staff is a big chunk of what a catcher does that defines how good his defense is, and if a guy is good at coaching those aspects, then I certainly think that that can be assumed to correlate to his skills at performing them.
                              But this again isn't necessarily true. It's just like with teachers-there are people who are the smartest in the world and most knowledgeable at a particular subject matter, but who have always been failures as teachers. OTOH, there are people who aren't the smartest in the world but who are great teachers. Dickey could just have had a great teaching personaility.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                EH, I have another comment to make about your and others' interpretation of 70s/80s stars. I think that the league in that time was so strong, and the top players weren't able to separate themselves nearly as much because of that. Thus, many people interpret those numbers as meaning the players at that time weren't any good rather than realizing the reality-that the reason they didn't post such eye popping numbers was because of league strength.

                                Yeah, the 80s stars may not look as flashy as the 30s stars. But you have to ask yourself why they don't look as flashy. It's not because they're not as good, but rather just the opposite really.

                                Comment

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