Nomar Garciaparra

[torez77]

I have a question. Why do we here at Fever underrate Nomar Garciaparra? IMO he is one of the 3 greatest offensive shortstops of all time (A-Rod and Wagner being the other two) Yet I can't recall one time I've read another poster here mention him when discussing the greatest players ever. With all due respect to Bill Burgess' form charts he gives to help us rank the greatest players, Nomar is nowhere to be found on his list for SS's. That's just one example. Sorry to say, I don't think he'd even be ranked in the top 100 players here at BBF after everybody's lists are finished. Am I missing something?

It's true that injuries have hampered his career lately, but just look at his career from '97 to '03. One of the greatest ever for SS's and on a par with A-Rod during that time. In the late '90s and early '00s, the Big Three at SS were A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. A-Rod once admitted, "I'm the youngest, Jeter's the richest, and Nomar's the best." When Nomar's career began to take off, he immediately caught the eye of Ted Williams, who said, "Boy, I'm looking at someone who's gonna be as good as anyone who's ever played the game. Boy, I say that, and I believe it too!"

I'm not saying he should be ranked as high as Wagner, A-Rod or even in the Top 25. I'm just wondering why when we're discussing the numerous all-time greatest players, and listing names, there's no mention of Nomar Garciaparra.

[ElHalo]

I'm not saying he should be ranked as high as Wagner, A-Rod or even in the Top 25. I'm just wondering why when we're discussing the numerous all-time greatest players, and listing names, there's no mention of Nomar Garciaparra.

People get very antsy when you put Derek Jeter in an all time top 100, and it's pretty hard to make a case that Nomar's better than Jeter. He's a career .320 hitter... but the last time he hit his career average was 2000. He had six good seasons, of which at least 3 (98-2000) can be considered great, and it seems as if that's going to be about all she wrote for his career. Three years just aren't enough to make an all time great player, even for me.

I hate to always bring up the Jeter comparisons... but if you want to compare him to Jeter: Jeter's only got one year, 1999, which is comparable to Nomar's 98-00 seasons (though Jeter's was probably the best). However, Jeter's level of play has been, compared to league average, relatively consistent every year from 98-2005, a span of 8 years (Jeter had a small dip in 2002, and that horrific first two months in 2004, but other than that he's been remarkably even keeled for quite a long time). He's suffered countless injuries (mostly from broken bones in his hands from HBP's), but has only missed notable time due to that one horrific opening day injury in 2003, which he recovered from with no ill effects. Nomar's missed the greater part of three seperate seasons in the last five, and even in his great years missed 20-30 games from various ailments. When Nomar has been on the field, his offensive output has trended downwards continuously since his return from the wrist injury in 2001.

Jeter's a full year younger than Nomar, and leads him by 541 hits and 394 runs. Jeter's at least a 50/50 bet to finish in the top 10 career totals in both categories (yes, really; he needs to play till he's 40 and average 81 runs and 154 hits a season, which seems eminently obtainable if he stays healthy and has a normal decline period), while I would bet against Nomar cracking the top 100 in either category.

What's with all the Nomar/Jeter dilly dally? Well, point is, Jeter's better. Pretty clearly. And nobody really brings up Jeter as a top 100 guy all that often.

[mac195]

Nomar sure looked, in '99-'00, like someone who would one day make a list of the top 20-30 players of all time. But now it isn't even clear that he can make the HOF. He'll need a few more productive years to have real HOF credentials, or be ranked in the top 100.

[Blackout]

Nomar would be a top 10 shortstop of all time, but i dont think he'd still be at the top 100 overall

[sschirmer]

I love Nomar. He is, after all, a Georgia Tech guy, but top three SS of all time? You've got to be joking. Yes, I too agree that in '99 &'00 he was awesome, but he would need a serious comeback at this point to even be HOF worthy. And he's not even going to make this comeback at SS.

[F_man8326]

I love Nomar. He is, after all, a Georgia Tech guy, but top three SS of all time? You've got to be joking. Yes, I too agree that in '99 &'00 he was awesome, but he would need a serious comeback at this point to even be HOF worthy. And he's not even going to make this comeback at SS.

I have to agree. If Nomar has a good year with the Dodgers, I know that a lot of teams would be mad for considering him being washed up. Heck, this could finally put the Dodgers back in postseason play.

[cubmanjay]

I agree with all of the above. I was really looking forward to several years of all star ball when Nomar came over to the Cubs, but it just never happened. Unfortunately he had three years of injuries that knocked him out of the upper echelon of MODERN shortstops. Too bad, he could have been one of the greatest.

[DoubleX]

Nomar top 3 SS? Definitely not. He cracks my top 20 for the same reason that Al Rosen cracks my top 20 at 3B, great (but short) peak. His peak is just too short for me, and his peak numbers are actually not as great as they superficially look. Like Jim Rice, Nomar was greatly benefitted from Fenway and has one of his two batting titles to thank Fenway for (If not for Nomar being helped by Fenway, Jeter would have won the '99 batting title).

Another thing that knocks Nomar down a peg, besides the short peak and the Fenway boost, are all the injuries. It seems like it's been something every year. I also hate to say this, but Nomar's injuries are kind of suspicious - often with muscles and tendons and joints and such. Couple that with the fact that it's just so rare to have a SS hit like that, let alone 3 in a decade (A-Rod and Tejada being the other two), and I've long suspected something was up with Nomar.

Another thing is that his all-around game was never as good as Jeter and A-Rods. He certainly did not have Jeter and A-Rod's baserunning ability, and I don't believe he was as good in the field either. I was in Boston for most of Nomar's prime years, so I saw plenty of him, and I couldn't believe how often he would make a poor throw to first (most often taking the form of completely overthrowing him). He probably had more range than Jeter at that point in their careers, but it didn't matter because Nomar's fielding and throwing accuracy were terrible.

Anyway, top 3 SS, I can't see it. If you think he's a top 3 SS, where do you rank Al Rosen among 3Bman?

[BoSox Rule]

Nomar was on track to become one of the 4 best Major League SS ever with Wagner, Vaughan, and A-Rod. Through 2000 his EqA was .320 which is remarkable, but especially for SS. That was 2nd all-time behind only A-Rod. He AVERAGED 11.2 WARP through 2000. Jeter has surprassed that number once in his career. At their respective peaks, Derek Jeter doesn't even compare. If Al Reyes hadn't hit Nomar in the wrist with a fastball in 1999, we aren't even having this conversation and Nomar would probably have a better EqA and A-Rod's current .323 with only his slightly above average defense holding him back from taking a top 3 spot of shortstops in the history of the game. This is probably a sadder story than Griffey, given that Nomar was a shortstop.

Just for the record, FRAA from 1997-2000.

Jeter: -75
Nomar: 0 (12 in 1999 and 2000 combined)

Not even comparable it's ridiculous.

A-Rod: just 6

[leecemark]

--Griffey had 10 great seasons before injuries derailed his move up on the all time great list. Nomar started to fall apart alot quicker. He did have a great peak, but his prime has been very short and thats keeps he from making the all time top 10 SS or top 100 players. If he can stay healthy and put up some more good years (although they aren't going to be at SS) he might end up (in a best case scenario) ranking in Ernie Banks territory. Still alot of work ahead of him to get there though.

[BoSox Rule]

I'm not talking about right now. I based my post on pre-2001 and the Al Reyes incident that derailed Nomar's career later than the 1999 event.

[leecemark]

--Bosox, Nomar played less than 600 games "pre-2001". That is not a sufficient sample to rate anyone on.

[BoSox Rule]

Yeah, but I'm also saying if he continued his career as he should have. I wouldn't rank him based on pre-2001 only, I'm just saying what could have been.

And the fact that Griffey had more healthy seasons before his injuries than Nomar only makes Nomar the sadder story.

[baseballPAP]

Barry Larkin can't even get much recognition in this respect...and he is probably a legitimate top 5 or 6 SS. Most people don't see him as a good HOF candidate right now....

Why do I bring this up? Because Nomar couldn't begin to carry Larkin's jock!

[torez77]

OK, valid points all around. I happen to value peak more than most members here, but I can understand why there's no mention of him in people's Top 100. His peak, great as it was, is just too short, and he's too injury-prone. I figured that'd be the consensus. Just wanted there to be a thread that explained it. I personally will consider him for my Top 100, though.

I WAS misquoted, however. You guys say I think he's one of the 3 greatest SS's ever. No, I said he is, or more appropriately WAS, one of the 3 greatest OFFENSIVE SS's ever. Vaughan is above him now because of the longer career. If we're including Negro Leaguers, Pop Lloyd should enter the discussion. Wagner and A-Rod are #1 and #2. Jeter, Banks, Tejada and Appling are other great offensive SS's off the top of my head.