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  • Chipper Jones

    I touched on this in another thread but I think Chipper Jones is underrated.
    Code:
                 Rel BA       REL  OB       REL SLG        OPS+
    
    Schimdt      104.9        118.7         141.3          147
    
    Brett        116.4        112.6         123.9          135
    
    Jones        115.5        120.3         129.2          141
    
    Mathews      107.0        118.5         133.3          143
     
    Boggs        123.6        124.6         107.9          130
    Chipper holds his own against the top 3b. He had a great peak and had one of the best modern seasons in 1999. He posted a OPS+ of 175 and won the MVP, his team also won the pennant. He has 6 30+ HR seasons, had 8 straight 100 RBI seasons, 7 100+ runs scored seasons, 8 30+ double seasons, 5 14+ SB seasons, 7 .300+ BA seasons, 7 .400+ OB% seasons, and 7 .530+ SLG% seasons all from a 3B and a switch hitter in 11 seasons.

    I think he's already a top 10 3B and Switch hitter and could end up being the greatest 3B of all time.

    Where do you rank Chipper Jones and where do you see him ending up?
    58
    1-5
    22.41%
    13
    5-10
    22.41%
    13
    11-20
    44.83%
    26
    Not in my top 20
    10.34%
    6
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 02-09-2006, 06:00 AM.
    "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

    "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

  • #2
    Chipper Jones

    Since this was brought up on another thread, I figured I might as well give the guy his own discussion.

    I've personally never payed much attention to Chipper. To be honest with you, my thinking on this goes pretty much like this: The Braves are always in the news, largely because of Leo Mazzone. So Braves players become known names just because of the luck of their pitching coach. Lots of guys have played for the Braves, and you hear about them, pretty much just because they play for the Braves, but are the type of guy who you wouldn't know the first thing about if they played for, say, the Brewers (See also: Otis Nixon, Terry Pendleton, David Justice, Reggie Sanders, Jeff Blauser, Brian Jordan, Jaret Wright, etc.). Chipper of course has always put up pretty respectable numbers, but nothing to ever really jump out and bite you (not one single point of Black Ink in his career, a career high of only 111 RBI, and only one 40 HR season don't exactly scream "superstar"). But 162 game averages of over 100 R, 100 RBI, 30 HR, 30 2B, and .300/.400/.500 don't just fall out of trees. So how good is Chipper? Is he a top 10 3Bman?

    My top 10 3B's:

    1. Alex Rodriguez
    2. Pie Traynor
    3. Mike Schmidt
    4. Wade Boggs
    5. George Brett
    6. Frank Baker
    7. Eddie Mathews
    8. Jimmy Collins
    9. Pepper Martin
    10. Brooks Robinson

    So I guess, yeah, I could see Chipper cracking the top 10. What does anybody else think?
    "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

    Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

    Comment


    • #3
      No doubt that Chipper's underrated. However, I don't think he'll ever be mentioned in the same breath with Schmidt and Brett because of his defense, plain and simple. He's definitely one of the top switch-hitters of all time, though.
      Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

      Comment


      • #4
        As to where I'd rank him, it'd probably be in the top 10 3Bman ever because of his offense.
        Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

        Comment


        • #5
          --Well, he is better than Pepper Martin . Not sure Pepper is who he has to beat out for most people's top 10 list though.
          --I think he is top 20, with a good chance at top 10 before his career winds up. He has been the Braves best position player over their amazingly long run of success. That probably makes him a Hall of famer before you even start digging into the numbers.

          Comment


          • #6
            3B is pretty strong at the very top, then it all goes to heck quickly afterwards, and it really comes down to personal preference for how the rankings shape up after the first 5 or 6 players. I have Chipper up to 9th right now, and that is pretty much all based on his offense. He is one of the best offensive 3Bman of all-time, and I can see moving him up to 6th or 7th by the time his career is done. This is who I have ahead of him right now:

            1) Mike Schmidt
            <gap>
            2) George Brett
            3) Eddie Mathews
            4) Wade Boggs
            <gap>
            5) Ron Santo
            <gap>
            6) Brooks Robinson
            7) Frank Baker
            8) Ken Boyer
            9) Chipper Jones

            Comment


            • #7
              I have absolutely no problem admitting that my Pepper Martin fixation is not logical and can't be defended by rational means. Martin is just unique in how many different buttons of mine he pushes... scrappy fighter, great intangibles guy, good contact hitting and doubles hitting, excellent speed, best postseason performer of all time, played for my favorite team of all time (1934 Cardinals). I can't be rational when it comes to Pepper Martin.
              "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

              Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ElHalo
                Since this was brought up on another thread, I figured I might as well give the guy his own discussion.

                I've personally never payed much attention to Chipper. To be honest with you, my thinking on this goes pretty much like this: The Braves are always in the news, largely because of Leo Mazzone. So Braves players become known names just because of the luck of their pitching coach. Lots of guys have played for the Braves, and you hear about them, pretty much just because they play for the Braves, but are the type of guy who you wouldn't know the first thing about if they played for, say, the Brewers (See also: Otis Nixon, Terry Pendleton, David Justice, Reggie Sanders, Jeff Blauser, Brian Jordan, Jaret Wright, etc.). Chipper of course has always put up pretty respectable numbers, but nothing to ever really jump out and bite you (not one single point of Black Ink in his career, a career high of only 111 RBI, and only one 40 HR season don't exactly scream "superstar"). But 162 game averages of over 100 R, 100 RBI, 30 HR, 30 2B, and .300/.400/.500 don't just fall out of trees. So how good is Chipper? Is he a top 10 3Bman?

                My top 10 3B's:

                1. Alex Rodriguez
                2. Pie Traynor
                3. Mike Schmidt
                4. Wade Boggs
                5. George Brett
                6. Frank Baker
                7. Eddie Mathews
                8. Jimmy Collins
                9. Pepper Martin
                10. Brooks Robinson

                So I guess, yeah, I could see Chipper cracking the top 10. What does anybody else think?
                ElHalo,

                Is your list based on peak seasons because I don't see how you can put A-Rod #1 after just two seasons at third base? And if it is based on peak seasons where is Al Rosen? He was basically Mike Schmidt with a better BA for five years.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  ElHalo,

                  Is your list based on peak seasons because I don't see how you can put A-Rod #1 after just two seasons at third base? And if it is based on peak seasons where is Al Rosen? He was basically Mike Schmidt with a better BA for five years.
                  Al Rosen is 11th on this list. No, it's not just based on peak seasons; when I rank a player somewhere, I tend to rank his general career accomplishments at whatever position he's at. When I rank Babe Ruth among RF's, I include the numbers he put up as a LF. When I rank Stan Musial among LF's, I include his body of work at other positions. I think of ARod, first and foremost, as a 3Bman, so I rank him there, and include his body of work as a SS as well. I don't think it's an entirely ludicrous argument that ARod (including his entire body of work back to 1994) is better than any of the other guys on this list.
                  "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                  Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ElHalo
                    I was a couple of seconds late in getting my list out. Bill, could you merge the threads?
                    I took it upon myself to merge the threads. Hope you don't mind that I'm not Bill.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ElHalo
                      Al Rosen is 11th on this list. No, it's not just based on peak seasons; when I rank a player somewhere, I tend to rank his general career accomplishments at whatever position he's at. When I rank Babe Ruth among RF's, I include the numbers he put up as a LF. When I rank Stan Musial among LF's, I include his body of work at other positions. I think of ARod, first and foremost, as a 3Bman, so I rank him there, and include his body of work as a SS as well. I don't think it's an entirely ludicrous argument that ARod (including his entire body of work back to 1994) is better than any of the other guys on this list.


                      I can see you point But I rather wait until A-Rod has at least four or five seasons at 3B. It doesn't seem right to give A-Rod "credit" for his shortstop seasons in his ranking as third baseman. Can we call Jimmie Foxx the greatest hitting catcher because he played some games there? However if A-Rod does say at 3B and plays at his current level until age 35-36 he will easily be the greatest third basemen, unless David Wright passes him up in about 12 years from now.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                        [/b]

                        I can see you point But I rather wait until A-Rod has at least four or five seasons at 3B. It doesn't seem right to give A-Rod "credit" for his shortstop seasons in his ranking as third baseman. Can we call Jimmie Foxx the greatest hitting catcher because he played some games there? However if A-Rod does say at 3B and plays at his current level until age 35-36 he will easily be the greatest third basemen, unless David Wright passes him up in about 12 years from now.
                        You think 8 years at 3B would be enough for A-Rod to pass Schmidt?

                        A-Rod could make for a very interesting case one day. Usually when we have a great player that played multiple positions, we are able to identify them with one over the other, and it's usually because of more peak years at the one position. For example, we think of Ernie Banks as a SS, Rod Carew at 2B, and Stan Musial in LF, as opposed to 1B for all. But A-Rod may very well end up differently, and the only other example I can think of is Robin Yount given that he won an MVP at two positions (but even so, I think most people think of him as a SS). So what do we do with ranking A-Rod? Do we pick one over the other, or do we make an exception and put him as both?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          --Personally I rank guys at the most difficult position in which they played a significant portion of their career. That probably means A-Rod is always on my SS list. I suppose if he ends up playing ALOT more 3B than SS that could change, but the odds are against it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DoubleX
                            You think 8 years at 3B would be enough for A-Rod to pass Schmidt?
                            My gut wants me to say that a season and a half of David Wright is enough to pass Mike Schmidt, but I try and control that urge.

                            I think it really depends on what happens with the Yankees over the next few years. I identify him as a 3B because that's what he plays for the Yanks, where I watch him (watching on television, I've probably seen at least five or six times as many games of him playing at 3B as I saw of him playing at SS). If he wins a couple of WS with the Yanks, and gets remembered as a
                            Yankee, I think he goes as a 3B. If he doesn't win any championships with the Yanks, and gets remembered as a failure, I think he goes as a SS. Time will tell.
                            "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                            Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by leecemark
                              --Personally I rank guys at the most difficult position in which they played a significant portion of their career. That probably means A-Rod is always on my SS list. I suppose if he ends up playing ALOT more 3B than SS that could change, but the odds are against it.
                              The interesting thing about A-Rod and SS is that he's probably already 2nd behind Wagner, and it would be very difficult for him to ever pass Wagner, even if he played 10 more years there. And now that he's moved, I can't really see any argument that will one day put Rodriguez ahead of Wagner as a SS. So it's kind of like the interesting thing is over at SS anyway, so why not look ahead to 3B.

                              Comment

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