Defensive All-Time All-Star Teams

[Bill Burgess]

I'd like to post my Defensive All-Time All-Star Teams.

A Team

1B-------Hal Chase, (on an honest day)
2B-------Joe Gordon (40's Yankees)
SS-------Honus Wagner
3B-------Billy Cox
LF-------Richie Ashburn
CF-------Tris Speaker
RF-------Jimmie McAleer
C--------Buck Ewing/Charlie Bennett
P--------Warren Spahn

B Team

1B-------George Sisler
2B-------Eddie Collins
SS-------Pops Lloyd
3B-------Brooks Robinson
LF-------Oscar Charleston
CF-------Willie Mays
RF-------Bill Lange
C--------Johnny Bench/Biz Mackey
P--------Walter Johnson

Honorable Mentions to Bill Mazeroski(2B), Andrew Jones(OF), Torri Hunter(OF), Mickey Cochrane(C), Ossie Bluege(3B), Glenn Wright(SS), Mike Schmidt(3B), Charlie Gehringer(2B), Bobby Wallace(SS), Jim Edmonds (OF), Ivan (Pudge) Rodriquez (C), Jimmy Sheckard(OF), Herman Long(SS).
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Form Chart:

Catchers:

Pre-1910: Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong,
Moses Fleetwood Walker.

1910-60: Hank Severeid, Bob O'Farrell, Bill Killefer, Ray Schalk, Wally Schang, Johnny Bassler, Walker Cooper, Sherman Lollar, Jim Hegan, Jimmy Archer, Muddy Ruel, Steve O'Neil, Billy Sullivan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Gabby Hartnett, Al Lopez, Ernie Lombardi, Walker Cooper, Rick Ferrell, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Del Crandall, Smokey Burgess.

1960-present: Ted Simmons, Lance Parrish, Jim Sundberg, Jerry Grote, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Mike Piazza, Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Bill Freehan, Benito Santiago, Charles Johnson, Bob Boone

Negro Leagues:
Josh Gibson (1929-1946)
Louis "Santop" Loftin (1909-26)
Bruce Petway (1906-25);
Frank Duncan (1920-48)
Larry Brown (1919-49)
James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey (1920-47, '50)

1B -

Pre-1900: Joe Start, Roger Connor, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Dan Brouthers, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert, Adrian "Cap" Anson, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

Frank Chance, Stuffy McInnis, Jim Bottomley, Jack Fournier, Lu Blue, Hal Chase, George Sisler, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Bill Terry, Johnny Mize, Ted Kluszewski, Gil Hodges, Vic Power, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Wes Parker, Steve Garvey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Kent Hrbek, Tony Perez, Keith Hernandez, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Mark McGwire, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Carlos Delgado, Jason Giambi, JT Snow, Todd Helton, Darien Erstad, Albert Pujols; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor.

2B

Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

Larry Doyle, Bobby Lowe, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, George Cutshaw, Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch, Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Nellie Fox, Bobby Grich, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendiest, Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, Craig Biggio, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS

Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, George McBride, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Sewell, Luke Appling, Art Fletcher, Bill Dahlen, Donie Bush, Rabbit Maranville, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughn, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Maury Wills, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Dave Concepcion, Barry Larkin, Omar Vizquel, Julio Franco, Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Jeter, Alexander Rodriguez; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

3B:

Pre-1900:
Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Jimmie Collins, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

Harry Steinfelft, Tommy Leach, Frank Baker, Bill Bradley, Willie Kamm, Ossie Bluege, Pie Traynor, Billy Cox, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Clete Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Bill Madlock, Paul Molitor, Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen. Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF

Pre-1900: Harry Stovey, Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

Sherry Magee, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Carl Yasztrzemski, Joe Jackson, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Ralph Kiner, Fred Clarke, Zack Wheat, Jimmy Sheckard, Duffy Lewis, Joe "Ducky" Medwick, Willie Stargell, Manny Ramirez.
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CF:

Pre-1900: Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, Jimmy Ryan, George Gore, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Ollie Pickering, Pete Browning, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Mike Griffin

1900-1940: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Roush, Max Carey, Clyde Milan, Clarence "Ginger" Beaumont, Oscar "Happy" Felsch, Chick Stahl, Johnny Mostil, Benny Kauff, Lloyd Waner, Earl Averill, Hack Wilson, Wally Berger, Earle Combs.

1940-1970: Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Reiser, Larry Doby, Jim Piersall, Jim Landis, Bill Virdon, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Bobby Thompson, Curt Flood.

1970-present: Ken Griffey, Jr., Brett Butler, Andruw Jones, Tori Hunter, Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds, Mark Kotsay, Dale Murphy, Kirby Puckett, Bernie Williams, Carlos Beltran, Johnny Damon, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Steve Finley, Andre Dawson, Al Oliver, Bobby Murcer, and Eric Davis, Willie McGee, Willie Wilson, Mickey Rivers and Kenny Lofton.

Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Christobal Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Clint "Hawk" Thomas, Chino Smith, Martin Dihigo
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RF -

Pre-1900: Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Gavvy Cravath, Chuck Klein, Harry Hooper, Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, Sammie Sosa, Ross Youngs, Daryl Strawberry, Larry Walker.

Bill Burgess

[Etheridge2]

My All Time Team


A-Team
1B Keith Hernandez
2B Ryne Sandberg
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Andruw Jones
LF Carl Yastremski
C Ivan Rodriquez
P Jim Kaat


B-Team (I know I took 3 CFers so shoot me)
1B JT Snow
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Omar Vizquel
RF Curt Flood
CF Jim Edmonds
LF Willie Mays
C Mickey Cochrane
P Warren Spahn


Honorable Mention- Greg Maddux, Robbie Alomar, Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker, Andre Dawson, Larry Walker, Barry Bonds, Johnny Bench, Alex Rodriquez, Eddie Collins, George Sisler, Torii Hunter, Al Kaline

[AutoMick]

Bill

Originally posted by [email protected]
I got interested in baseball first in collecting cards, and then CYO little league from 4th-7th grade. Dad told me about Ty and Walter Johnson, and I read his autobio by Stump and was a fan for life. Cobb's been my primary research subject ever since, and I've went through Sporting News and Baseball Magazine, specificly to find a "jury pool" of prominent credible BB authorities to "prove" Cobb was what Dad had told me. And now these guys are saying "witnesses" don't count! What balls these kids have! Excuse my Greek.

Please post more often. We need more seasoning in this place. This kitchen gets real hot sometimes.

Bill

lol. I agree with your sentiments. I started collecting baseball cards and playing a spinner game with my neighbor who was a few years older than me, I was 9 and he 11. The game was Mel Allen's All-Star baseball. Are you familiar with it? It had the discs that had 1 was a homerun, 2 was a groundout, 3 etc. Well anyway the percentages for each category started teaching me things like Ty Cobb stole bases and had triples...... Babe Ruth had the biggest area with the number 1 in it. So I got to learn who hit for what ........ and the black discs were current playes and the red hall of famers. This was the starting of my education about the great players of the past..... was a great game and a great teacher as well.

One last thing..... I can usually take either side of the argument and bring some credibility to it..... devil's advocate or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that so many of these great players both today and yesterday had their flaws as well as their talents. Afterall, where else can a guy make an out 7 out of 10 times and still be classified as a superstar. If only real life was that easy with the percentages...... However hitting the major league fastball or curveball is still the hardest thing to do in all sports and it's too bad that people can't sit back and realize that our game has no clock..... it takes whatever it needs and the defense holds the ball. lol. What a great idea to be able to sit around the tv, the bar, or even at the park and be able to casually talk to each other about what's going on during a game or to even reminice about the past players, plays and games.

Biggest mistake I see with baseball is when it's broadcasters go outside their own game and have to talk about football, basketball, golf, Notre Dame, or whatever..... I mean with a 100+ years of material....... how can you run out of it...... broadcast the game like you have a flame in your heart like the one when you met your wife for the first time that burns with love...... I'll have 30 years in May and my love of the game of baseball has a burn that almost equals the love of St. Sherry....... that's what they call her for having put up with me for over 30 years! lol.

[Eddie Collins]

C: Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Bill White
2B: Maz
SS: Ozzie
3B: Brooks
LF: Lewis
CF: Speaker
RF: Clemente
P: Jack Chesbro
1B: Bill Buckner
RF: Fred Merkle
LF:Fred Snodgrass
P:Jim Kaat

Honorable mentions:
C:Bench
1B: Chase, Herandez
2B: Eddie Collins
SS: Wagner, Maranville, Dhalen
3B: Schmidt
OF: Mays, Ashburn, Hooper, Andruw Jones, Jim Edmonds

[Bill Burgess]

I consider Honus Wagner the greatest fielder who ever lived. He played and starred at several position before he turned to SS at the age of 27.

He had played 1B & 3B without problems, and was thought of as the greatest player at those positions when he played there.

Ironicly, strickly speaking, Hans may not have been the last word as a defensive SS. Herman Long, Bobby Wallace and Glenn Wright were thought of as his equal or even his superiors as a defensive SS. But when you consider that Honus fielded other positions, and even pitched 2 games, and very well too, I give the all-around defensive title to Honus Wagner, without anyone else too close. One must also always consider Hughie Jennings/Ozzie Smith whenever we discuss defensive SSs. Marty Marion/Rabbit Maranville also, supposedly.

Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, and Mike Kelly also played multi-positions, and all of them well, supposedly.

Bill Burgess

[leecemark]

I don't know if these guys were actually the best glovemen of all time or not, but they were good enough to build careers with glove alone:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Charley Grimm
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Aureilio Rodreguiz
SS: Rabbit Maranville
LF: Sammy Byrd (aka Babe Ruth's legs) - no real defense first LFers
CF: Paul Blair
RF: Harry Hooper

Four of them made the Hall despite being below average hitters.

[Bill Burgess]

Leecemark contributed this.

--I don't think I'd fight to the death for these exact rankings, although Grich and Maz on top and Soriano and Carew at the bottom I'm pretty sure of. Not sure why Grich made the modern list, while Morgan and Carew are old timers though. They played at almost exactly the same times.
--Modern: Grich, Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio, Kent, Soriano
--Classic: Maz, McPhee, Fox, Robinson, Gehringer, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Evers, Hornsby, Carew.
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RuthMayBond contributed this.

Grich, Sandberg and Biggio are pretty much neck-in-neck (maybe I could break my tie if I decided my undecided hypothetical Gold Gloves). Then Alomar, Kent and Soriano.

Maz, McPhee, Fox & Collins are so awesome it's hard to pick among them. Slightly below that would be Lajoie, then Gehringer. Then you've got the merely good or worse, with possibly Carew (not sure what to do with his split time), Morgan, Evers (overrated), JRobinson (split time again), Frisch and Hornsby. Flame away

[Bill Burgess]

Ty might find it hard to crack the top 20 OF defensively, despite the superb work he did.

I'd rate the following OFers either above him or equal to him.
Speaker, Lewis, Hooper, Milan, Mostil, Lange, McAleer, Mays, Clemente, Ashburn, A. Jones, T. Hunter, Mantle (young), DiMag, Carey, Roush, Dom DiMag, Felsch, Blair. Probably many more.

But I think that there is a tendency to assume that ANY OF who was any good at all was better defensively than Ty Cobb. And that's a lot of hogwash. Cobb was rated with Speaker up to around 1912 defensively. It was only through time that it became apparent that Spoke was such a gem. And that quote is from Tris' best friend & roommate, Joe Wood.

There were good fielding OFs who I think were not up to Ty in the gardens; Joe Jackson, Musial, Yaz, Simmons, Keeler, Wheat, Bob Meusel, Earl Combs (despite his poor arm), Aaron, Ott, Kaline, Maris. Ty also led his league in OF categories. His main virtues were he could play shallow and cut down on Texas leaguers, and go back for them, and had good sure, soft hands. He was very good on assists & DPs. He also enjoyed suckering runners into thinking he couldn't make the play, and then cut them down when they ran.
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Ty occasionally led his league in OF defensive categories. I admit that his main virtue were his accumulative counting stats, however.

Ty led the league's RF in assists from 1907-09.
In 1910, led the league in putouts & DPs.
In 1923, age 37, led league in DPs, FA, 2nd in POs.
Range Factor: In 70% of his games, he was usually well above ave.
His work was definite GG-caliber in at least 4 & possibly 8 seasons.
(These are the perceptions of Craig R. Wright in The Diamond Appraised, by Craig R. Wright & Tom House, 1989, pp. 80.

Craig is touted as a world class statman & theorist. He was then Director of ML Operatins for Sports Team Analysis & Tracking Systems (STATS). He wrote part of The Great American baseball Stat Book, for which he also served as essay editor.

So, the bottom line, RMB, is that some very well-qualified statmen, feel Ty's glove work was just a tad better than you do. But I do very much appreciate that you'd give him 3 GG, and more TPR titles than Pete Palmer's TB does. And so for that much, I do thank you greatly. Most don't give Cobb that.
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ElHalo contributed his opinion.
Bill, I don't think that anyone would doubt that Cobb was a very good, Gold Glove calibre OF'er (though I think saying that he deserved 8 GG's is a bit of a stretch... but 4 sounds entirely plausible). I'm just saying that using his counting stats to say that he deserves mention with guys like Speaker and Carey isn't really fair or accurate.



Bill Burgess

[KenFougere]

* My All-Defensive teams

A-Team

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Willie Mays
LF Carl Yastrzemski
C Ivan Rodriquez
P Jim Kaat

B-Team

1B George Scott
2B Ryne Sandberg
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Louis Aparicio
RF Dwight Evans
CF Paul Blair
LF Curt Flood
C Johnny Bench
P Greg Maddox

[wlh99raiders]

c-ivan rodriguez
1b- don mattingly
2b-ryne sandberg
ss-ozzie smith
3b-brooks robinson
lf- yaz
cf-willie mays
rf-clemente
p-jim kaat

[RuthMayBond]

RMB,

I've noticed that you haven't posted your all time team yet. With all of your defensive research, I'd be very interested in seeing who you'd trot out there.

I haven't finished but I can give you what I got

C-This one will be really tough since it is hard to balance PO/A/E/DP/range with CS, and I'm not finished with two of my top three candidates, and my other candidate doesn't have CS info. But strictly PO/A/E/DP/range, Schalk was probably led his league TEN STRAIGHT years! Towards CS, Bench is a solid candidate, and I don't know how IRod's career will end.

1B-I'd at least like to get through KHernandez

2B-It has to be Maz or McPhee

3B-It looks like it should be Schmidt or Brooksie, but I'd like to revisit Kamm, and I'm not finished with Santo's stats yet. I can only see Brooksie clearly winning one Gold Glove before 1967, although he is among the top candidates for a few years before that.

SS-Again, I haven't even started on the Wiz, but he does look as good as anybody. Wagner split his time among positions so he was probably the best FIELDER many years but not the best at any ONE position.

OF-It has to be Speaker, Ashburn and Carey. I suppose Andruw Jones has a shot if he can avoid a big decline.

P-You have to evaluate AT LEAST FORTY pitchers every year PER LEAGUE to get one Gold Glove, so I'm holding off on that. I could do quick research on the top guys per Total Baseball and pick from them. Greg Maddux isn't far from the top, definitely better than Kaat.

C-This one will be really tough since it is hard to balance PO/A/E/DP/range with CS, and one candidate doesn't have CS info. But strictly PO/A/E/DP/range, Schalk led his league TEN STRAIGHT years! Towards CS, I'd have to go with Bench unless IRod makes a comeback.

1B-Probably KHernandez over Konetchy, Tenney, Power.

2B-Probably Maz over McPhee

3B-Are you gonna make me pick between Schmidt or Brooksie (over Santo, BBell, Pendleton, Kamm)

SS-Ozzie over Glasscock, Aparicio, Maranville (because Wagner split among positions).

OF-It seems to be Speaker, Ashburn and Carey unless Andruw Jones reverses his decline.

P-Again, I haven't run the numbers for everyone, but Greg Maddux has got to be near the top, definitely better than Kaat. Probably add Mathewson, Alexander, C. Mays, Passeau, BLemon, Walsh.
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How about my all "old-timers" defensive team? (not another thread)

P-Mays/Mathewson
C-Zimmer/Schalk
1B-Tenney/Konetchy
2B-MCPHEE!
3B-Collins
SS-Maranville
LF-Veach/Sheckard
CF-Speaker
RF-Slaughter

These guys are way up on my list, could outfield 99% of modern guys

[HDH]

1b Hal Chase
2b Robero Alomar
SS Rabbit Maranville
3B Scott Rolen
C Ivan Rodriguez
CF Tris Speaker
RF Ichiro Suzuki
LF Bob Muesel
P Jim Kaat

[The Only Nolan]

c - Jim Sundberg
1b - Keith Hernandez
2b - Bill Mazeroski
3b - Brooks Robinson
ss - Osborne Smith
of - Richie Ashburn
of - Tris Speaker
of - Willie Mays
p - Jim Kaat

if I had to pick a distinct lf, cf, and rf, it would be:

lf - Carl Yastrzemski
cf - Richie Ashburn
rf - Roberto Clemente

[HDH]

JT Snow

I agree that JT Snow is on the same level of fielder as Grace and Mattingly and a slightly better than Will Clark. Kieth Hernandez was aggressive and played 1st like a shortstop played middle infield. I've read that Sisler played like Hernandez but Hal Chase was in a class by himself. Hal Chase is described as nimble, abnormally flexible, and dexterously acrobatic. I would like to have seen him play. Surprisingly, Cecil Fielder was a very good defensive 1st baseman. Much too big and slow to be considered great.

Defensive stats are the most difficult to judge. Stats vary depending on the era, pitching staff, surface, and range of the fielder. I try balance the statistics and weigh Assists and Put Outs heavier. Errors are sometimes a good indicator but can be deceptive because of a fielders range and willingness to attempt difficult plays.
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My Observations
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I'm as much of a Baseball junkie as anyone on this board. I don't pay much attention to other sports and I trust my own observations better than the outrageous claims of announcers who will state that a certain player in "arguably the best of all time..." at a certain skill then the next broadcast, state another player is "arguably the best..." at at another. Therefore, when I state my opinon, it is exactly that: My opinon only. I've watched and studied Baseball since @1968 and being from Detroit Metro, I saw allot of Tiger games. I took notice of Cecil Fielder. Surprisingly, he was a pretty good defensively. In addition, according to my observations, Keith Hernandez was the best fielding 1st baseman I've witnessed. I think Mark Grace was 2nd. Don Mattingly and JT Snow are about the same. Will Clark along with others were a step below. Again, my observations and opinions are mine only.
With Hal Chase and George Sisler I can only go on what I've read. There are few references to Hal Chase that don't talk about is defensive play. It was so good that he was a crowd attraction all his own. Teams gave him countless chances even when they knew he threw games.

[Imapotato]

I don't know if these guys were actually the best glovemen of all time or not, but they were good enough to build careers with glove alone:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Charley Grimm
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Aureilio Rodreguiz
SS: Rabbit Maranville
LF: Sammy Byrd (aka Babe Ruth's legs) - no real defense first LFers
CF: Paul Blair
RF: Harry Hooper

Four of them made the Hall despite being below average hitters.

Nice list...

C---Schalk look up his defensive Win shares and RF, and see he blows away ANY catcher
2b-George Cutshaw---WHO? Was voted best fielder by TSN from 1910-1920, led the league many times in many categories despite being bounced around teams who wanted him for his defensive prowness
SS---Maranville had a RF that when put into % was 140% ahead of his league
LF-No Joe Jackson, where triples went to die?
CF-Max Carey---was the greatest Defensive CF and the best basestealer that ever lived!!