Defensive All-Time All-Star Teams

[Bill Burgess]

Jeff,

I appreciate your head's up on Stuffy McInnis, as a glove wiz at 1st. Do we now consider him on the all-time glove list? How about giving me your all-time 1stBase glove list?

Mine are:

1. Chase
2. Sisler
3. Terry
4. Hernandez
5. Mattingly
6. Will Clark
7. JT Snow
8. Lou Blue
9. McInnis

Not sure after that. Help me out, willya? How about givin' me some ideas.


How does Gil Hodges rate with you? Or Parker of the Dodgers?
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RuthMayBond:
I'd consider JStart, Anson, Comiskey, Beckley, Tenney, Konetchy, McCormick, Banks as I have them all deserving at least four GG.
I have Hodges as deserving five GG so definitely include him.
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RuthMayBond:
I had Wright as 8th before I decided I didn't know enough about him; certainly no Omar; I've always though Long was overrated defensively; I forgot about Marion, he should be on there; Honus, I don't think, was all that great of a defender. GG quality, sure, but not all time great quality.


Bill Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

Your Top 10 Shortstops Ever, Defense ONLY.


Form Chart:

Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, George Davis.

Bobby Wallace, Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Donie Bush, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughan, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Terry Turner, Leo Durocher, Jack Berry, Robin Yount, Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Luis Aparicio, George Davis, Alex Rodriguez, Dave Concepcion, Ozzie Smith, Barry Larkin, Luke Appling, Rabbit Maranville, Marty Marion, Roger Pedckinpaugh, Omar Vizquel, Maury Wills, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, George McBride.


Negro Leagues: Pop Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

Appreciate notes, dates, Honorable Mentions.

Bill Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

John B. Sheridan, St. Louis spwr. (1888-1929)
Sporting News column, "Back of Home Plate", 1917-29


"(Joe) Vila adds, that in his opinion (Hugh) Jennings was the greatest of shortstops. Again I must disagree. Jennings was a great shortstop, bar one very serious shortcoming, a weak arm. that weakness forced Hugh to play a shallow field, where Wallace and Wagner could play a deep field, 40 feet deeper than Jennings could. True, Jennings made a wonderful job of short, his limitation of arm power considered. But Wallace, Wagner and Herman Long could play so much deeper than Jennings that they naturally could get grounders that Jennings could not get, and make, also go farther back for fly balls than Jennings could go.

Why, about 1893, Jennings' arm was so weak that he was forced to play almost on the grass behind the pitcher. At that, Hugh could do everything but throw, go either way, back for flies, etc. I never saw any infielder who could make putouts on long, wild throws from the catcher as Jennings could. He'd make a putout on a low throw that other infielders would "high low" to the center fielder.

Wallace was, I have always believed, the greatest of shortstrops in a fielding sense. He could do all the things that Wagner could do and one that Wagner could not do, get a ball behind the third baseman, and by quick righting of the body and sheer power of arm, make the assist at first. Wagner could do all these things, save right his heavy body in time to make the throw. (Sporting News, February 11, 1926) -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"With a powerful arm, a quick release, and outstanding range, speed, and agility, Long played shortstop, according to the Boston Globe, "like a man on a flying trapeze." . . . His career chances-per-game (6.4) tops all shortstops.

. . . twice knocking in over 100 and scoring over 100 seven times. His 149 runs scored led the NL in 1893 and his 12 HRs led in 1900. Noisy and uncouth on the field, he urged teammates to greater efforts, ragged opponents, and stirred up fans. He always played all out, once breaking Pittsburgh catcher Connie Mack's leg witha ferocious slide when there was no play at the plate.
(The Ballplayers, ed. by Mike Shatzkin, 1990, pp. 633.)
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In 1889 shortstop Herman Long made 117 errors. Today he would never have the chance to make so many without being booted back to the minors, but the game was different in 1889, when Long's numerous miscues didn't even lead the league. In more than 16 major league seasons he accumulated an astonishing 1,070 errors at SS alone, plus another six when he filled in at other positions. Add his minor league bobbles and he probably made more errors than any other man in BB history.

Yet Long was regarded as one of the best shortstops of his day, and many authorities place him at the top of the list. Although he made scads of errors, he also covered more ground than any of his counterparts. Many of his misses came on balls that other shortstops could only watch go by from afar. Long was spectacularly acrobatic as he pursued batted balls, cutting off some hits with moves more likely to be seen at the circus. He ranks second all-time in total chances per game. The outstanding plays that occasionally resulted from his attempts made the extra errors worthwhile. (Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia, ed. of Total Baseball, David Pietrusza, Matthew Silverman, Michael Gershman, 2000, pp.674)
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". . . Long played shortstop more than any other position and was famed for the amount of ground he could cover and for his accurate fielding. (excerpted fromm his obituary, Chicago Daily Tribune, September 17, 1909, pp.14)
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(Denver, September 16, --Herman Long, said to be the greatest shortstop of the country, died here today of consumption (TB). He made his reputation with the Boston Nationals.) (excerpted from his obituary, Washington Post, September 17, 1909, pp. 9)
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H. G. Salsinger wrote in the Detroit News in 1935:
"Hugh Jennings was a great shortstop but how many know that Herman Long was an even better one, and that Long, until the arrival of Wagner, was recognized as the greatest shortstop of all time?"

Of Long, Jack Doyle said to John Kieran, "you can't tell an old Bostonian there was ever a better shortstop." Walter Barnes wrote in the Boston Globe in 1936, "Herman Long was never excelled in the brilliancy of his fielding at short-stop." Joe Vila in 1930 reported Kid Nichols as saying of Long, "He was the greateset shortstop I ever saw. He covered more ground than Hans Wagner or Hughie Jennings. He fielded grounders no other shortstop could have reached and he threw out the fleetest base runners. He was a fine hitter and lead-off man, and once he stole more than 100 bases."

Bill Burgess

[ElHalo]

1. Maranville
...
...
...
2. Jennings
3. Aparicio
4. Smith
5. Peckinpaugh
6. Tinker (not sure how he missed your list, Bill)
7. Rizzuto

I lose my confidence after this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------I had Wright as 8th before I decided I didn't know enough about him; certainly no Omar; I've always though Long was overrated defensively; I forgot about Marion, he should be on there; Honus, I don't think, was all that great of a defender. GG quality, sure, but not all time great quality.

[leecemark]

1. Smith
2. Maranville
3. Aparicio
--If we're talking career defensive value after these guys, then I'd say Vizquel, Dahlen, Ripken and Conception would be obvious top 10 guys (add Bancroft, Trammell and Boudreau to round it out). If we're just talking the slickest gloves there are alot of guys who were fantastic with the leather, but had relatively short careers as regulars due to weak sticks. McBride, Miller, Marion, McMillian, Maxvill and Belanger come to mind (lets see one more, ....Brinkman).
--The top three make it regardless of criteria. You chose which criteria you like and fill in the other 7 based on that.

[RuthMayBond]

Speaker/Mays:

We're waiting.

Geez. Speaker had a slight advantage in OPS+, PO & A titles, and had an unfair advantage in counting stats from his home parks. Mays had a slight advantage in plate apps and Adjusted Range Factor. Speaker had more SB but I bet Mays had a better SB%. I'd take EITHER ONE on my team
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Speaker/Mays

Speaker is 10th in relative BA, Mays may be 51st but he's not in the top 50. Speaker is 18th in relative OBP, Mays may be 51st but he's not in the top 50. Mays is 17th in relative SLG, Speaker is 25th. I don't have home/away right now but did note that Speaker had a larger than conventional home advantage for counting numbers. Mays has 57 black ink and 337 grey ink, Speaker has 34 black ink 346 and grey ink. Mays has 642 win shares, Speaker has 630. Mays has 89.6 total player wins, Speaker has 82. Mays had a better longevity and peak. I don't know about running game.
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Leecemark:
--So Mays comes out ahead in most numbers without making an era adjustment. Factor in that he was playing in a fully developed and integrated league and the gap widens significantly. Mays-Cobb may be a close call (I vote Mays), but Mays-Speaker is really no contest.
P.S. Mays wins the baserunning contest by a landslide. He led his league in SB multiple times, while Speaker never came close. Mays also has a terrific success rate, while Speaker's is dismal (although to be fair, most guys didn't have good rates then. They weren't very selective about when they ran).
--Don't get me wrong on Speaker. I've got him 4th amoung CF, but 12th amoung all players. CF is some rough competion. I'd say it has the greatest concentration of talent at the top of any position.

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ElHalo:
I'd have them about dead even without an era adjustment. The fact of the matter is this, though: I rank Speaker 7th overall and Mays 3rd. Is an era adjustment really enough to move a player up four spots at the top of the list? I'm really, really not sure about that.
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Torez77:
Equivalent Average: Mays .325, Speaker .315
Wins Above Replacement Player: Mays 207.8 (10.6 per year), Speaker 176.9 (9.2 per year)
Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player: Mays 526 (26.5 per year), Speaker 477 (24.4 per year)

When figuring out their averages per year, I subtracted the years when they played less than 100 games. If we're just comparing them defensively, anybody have Defensive Win Shares available?

I'll take Mays over Speaker as an all-around player anyday! And even just comparing them defensively, I believe Mays tops Speaker in every advanced stat!
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10-23-2005, 10:52 AM
CTaka
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10

When figuring out their averages per year, I subtracted the years when they played less than 100 games. If we're just comparing them defensively, anybody have Defensive Win Shares available?

I'll take Mays over Speaker as an all-around player anyday! And even just comparing them defensively, I believe Mays tops Speaker in every advanced stat!

In terms of Fielding Win Shares:

Mays 103.6 Total FWS 4.11 per 1000 innings
Speaker 117.8 Total FWS 4.93 per 1000 innings
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[Pitching Beats Hitting]

A little late to be on board, I know. But I figure I'll throw in my two cents.

c- Pudge Rodriguez
1b- Hernandez
2b- Robby Alomar
3b- Brooks
ss- Ozzie
LF- Griffey
CF- Mays
RF- Andruw Jones
LHP- Jim Kaat
RHP- Greg Maddux
CL- Rivera

I know I have a lot of modern players, but that's because I have seen them play. Watching Vizquel and Alomar was like watching a circus act. Every single night one or both of them would do something rediculous. Fielding percentages are a tough barometer because we see scorers do rediculous things all the time, and there's no reason to think practices were ever any better in this regard.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Ryan Sandberg
SS Ozzie Smith*
3B Brooks Robinson*
C Jonny Bench
P Greg Maddux
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Willie Mays*(anyone who puts Andruw Jones over him is a moron)
LF Al Kalnine

Basically i picked the two best corner outfeilders, and the asterisks are like ones that are obvious in my opinion.

[ElHalo]

Basically i picked the two best corner outfeilders, and the asterisks are like ones that are obvious in my opinion.

They're not necessarily obvious; I have different players at all three of the positions you starred. 3B: Pie Traynor; SS: Rabbit Maranville; CF: Tris Speaker.

I think I should renew my all time defensive all stars, though....

C: Ray Schalk (not even close here)
1B: George Sisler
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Rabbit Maranville
3B: Pie Traynor
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Tris Speaker
RF: Ichiro Suzuki (yeah, I moved him ahead of Kaline, Clemente, etc.)

Second team:

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Kieth Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
SS: Luis Aparicio
3B: Brooks Robinson
LF: Carl Yastrzemski
CF: Richie Ashburn
RF: Al Kaline

[leecemark]

Also an updated team

C: Bench, Schalk
1B: Hernandez, nobody close
2B: Maz, Gordon
3B: Robinson, Schmidt
SS: Smith, Maranville
LF: Clarke, Bonds
CF: Mays, Speaker
RF: Kaline, Clemente
--Comment: If I'm just naming 3 outfielders there would be dozens of CF ahead of every corner OF. Unlike IF where the skill sets are very differerent it is pretty clear to me that every really great and most very good CF were better than the great RF/LF. Especially LF. At least you need to have a good arm to play RF.

[The Dude]

Here's mine since I never did one:

A-Team:
C-Schalk
1B-Hernandez
2B-Mazeroski
3B-Robinson
SS-Smith
LF-Yaz
CF-Speaker
RF-Al Kaline

B-Team:
C-Bench
1B-Mattingly
2B-Morgan
3B-Schmidt
SS-Aparicio
LF-SJ Jackson
CF-Ashburn
RF-Ichiro

[ElHalo]

C: Ray Schalk
1B: George Sisler
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Rabbit Maranville
3B: Pie Traynor
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Richie Ashburn
RF: Al Kaline
DH: Raphael Palmeiro

[Bill Burgess]

Cobb's Defense:

Although I've never said that TC was a "great" fielder, I have repeated the assertions of his peers that he was a very, very good fielder.

Overall, Ty was only rated 4th in his time as a defensive CF. He was ranked beneath - Speaker, Milan, and Felsch.

He was generally considered below the following in defense.

Speaker, Harry Hooper, Duffy Lewis, Clyde Milan, Johny Mostil, Jimmy Sheckard, Max Carey, Eddie Roush. And below Jimmy McAleer & Bill Lange who played earlier.

He was generally thought of as an equal to Joe Jackson.

He was considered significantly superior to Babe, Sam Crawford, Earle Combs, Zach Wheat, Harry Heilmann, Red Wingo, Heinie Manush, Bob "Fatty" Fothergill, Ira Flagstead.

Cobb's gifts in the field were range, backward flight, no one covered any more ground, not even Speaker, Lange or McAleer. He had great judgment in playing the hitters. He could run down and catch up to many long flies. He had a fine OF arm until late 1918, when he injured it.

Babe was very good at playing hitters well, and camping under high flies, and had great power & accuracy in his throws. He was known for his judgment in throwing to the right base. He also was a real hustler in going after hits. He was never lazy or inattentive. Early his speed wasn't that much of a problem, but after his stomache ache in '25, his abs weakened, and his girth started to expand, so his speed was a hindrance in his OF work.

His attitude towards his defensive work was positive & strong. His only real weakness was in his lack of being able to catch up to many liners, especially to right-center, which fell away steeply at Yankee Stadium, compared to most of the others in the league.

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[B][COLOR=Red]Name------------PO's/g---------Assists/g------------DPs/g---------Errors/g[/COLOR]
[/B]
[B][COLOR=Red]Center Fielders[/COLOR][/B]:

Max Carey---------2.628----------.140----------------.035-----------.097
Happy Felsch------2.592----------.156----------------.055-----------.071
Tris Speaker------2.515----------.166----------------.051-----------.082
Eddie Roush-------2.455----------.120----------------.022-----------.074
Ty Cobb-----------2.168-(5 of 6)-.133-(5 of 6)-------.036 (3of6)----.092 (4of6)
Clyde Milan-------2.151----------.154----------------.030-----------.113

[B][COLOR=Red]Corner Outfielders[/COLOR][/B]:

Babe Ruth---------1.983----------.091----------------.021-----------.069
Duffy Lewis-------1.855----------.146----------------.027-----------.085
Joe Jackson-------1.832----------.141----------------.027-----------.077
Harry Hooper------1.742----------.150----------------.035-----------.066


Richie Ashburn----2.89-----------.084----------------.021-----------.052
Willie Mays-------2.49-----------.086----------------.021-----------.049
Barry Bonds-------2.16-----------.073----------------.009-----------.034



Jimmie McAleer----2.42-----------.148-----------------.035----------.151
Bill Lange--------2.41-----------.189-----------------.054----------.162
Dummy Hoy---------2.20-----------.152-----------------.040----------.219

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Great Historical Defensive CFers:
1. Jimmie McAleer
2. Tris Speaker
3. Richie Ashburn
4. Willie Mays
5. Bill Lange
6. Max Carey

Today: 2004

1. Andrew Jones
2. Tori Hunter
3. Mike Cameron
4. Jim Edmonds
5. Mark Kotsay
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Jeffrey's comment: Actually, your (modern) 5 could go toe-to-toe with any other of today's guys
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Backward Flight:

"BTW, when you say "backward flight", you're referring to chasing down a ball with his back to it? Or backing up to catch a ball while facing it?"

(Bill - In the days before 1920's live ball, the fielders were able to play much closer to the infield dirt than afterwards. But it remained for Tris Speaker to show how close in. After Tris, Clyde Milan started to play way further in, then Cobb started to also. All following Speaker's example. They were gambling that the bloopers they could catch would make up for the occasional triples over their heads. But Speaker, Milan and Cobb somehow got the knack of "knowing" when to play a bit further back. They would turn their backs to the infield and sprint for 30 yards, then turn their heads and catch the ball over their shoulders. Always got a big reaction from the fans too. That is what we call backward flight. Oscar Charleston of the old Negro L. was reputed to have that gift also. If they had merely back-pedaled, they'd never have gotten to the ball. They actually sprinted like Olympic runners. Relied on pure BB instinct. But no one was as gifted as Speaker in going and getting them. That is why he has so many assists, DPs. He played 15-20 feet behind the dirt, back of second.)
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Some cool, colorful play from yesteryear, showcasing the Defensive Skills of Ty/Babe.

1946 - "But there also were numerous occasions when the Babe made plays which he had craftily thought up beforehand. Such as the day he played left field in Detroit and trapped no less an experienced hand than Charley Gehringer into thinking a fly ball had cleared the fence for a homer instead of coming down for an easy out. This was before the present double deck stands had been erected in what then was call Navin Field.

There was just a board fence in left and to the Babe one day it occurred that with a runner on second it could be possible, with a high fly ball hit out toward left, to fake all the notions of a dejected outfielder who knows a homer is about to sail over his head.

So he bided his time and one afternoon it came. With Gehringer on second, a high fly soared out to left. The Babe ran back to the fence, looked up at the ball for a moment and then with a motion of utter disgust shrugged his shoulders and cast his eyes on the ground. It was a beautiful piece of acting and fooled Gehringer completely. Certain the ball was clearing the fence, the Tiger second baseman headed for home. And in that same moment Ruth darted forward, got his eyes back on that ball and caught it some five feet in front of the fence. Doubling up Gehringer at second was then a simple matter.

Of course, in order to accomplish the trick an outfielder must be equipped with the gift of being able to take his eye off the ball for an appreciable length of time. But then the effervescent Babe Ruth was ever a very gifted hand at anything he tried on a ball field. (Ferdinand C. Lane, Baseball Magazine, 1946)

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John B. Foster, NY sportswriter (1888-1941)
Editor-in-Chief of the Official Spalding Base Ball Guide(1908-41)
NY Giants business manager & secretary (1912-1919)

Hugh S. Fullerton in Golfer tells of a remarkable play in base running-yet one not remarkable for Cobb, for, as a friend remarked, "He pulls that stuff all the time.

"Mr. Fullerton describes Cobb in a game in Detroit some years ago. "Late in the game, he made a play which opened my eyes. A runner was on second base when a short fly was hit over second into center. Cobb could have handled it without an effort. The second baseman or shortstop could have caught it, but it would have required a fast start. Cobb claimed the catch the instant the ball was hit. "Instead of starting for it at top speed he leaped forward, seemed to hesitate, started slowly and half stopped. Bush, who evidently knew the system, started out hard as if to try to catch the ball. Cobb yelled something. Bush stopped and backed up. The ball was falling and Cobb was still lagging. It looked fifty to one the ball would fall safe. The runner on second thought he saw the ball falling, thought Cobb didn't have a chance to make the catch and he leaped toward third. As he did so Cobb sprang forward with a wonderful sprint, made a desperate shoe-string catch, came up with the ball and tossed it to second, doubling the runner off the bag. He had made a play where there was none--had deliberately plotted to deceive the runner into believing the ball would fall safe, and had risked making a desperate catch to get the chance for a double play." (NL Spalding Baseball Guide, date uncertain)
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Joey D./Backward Flight

Mattingly had an excellent question concerning Joe D.'s D.
"Before Willie & Mickey, there was DiMaggio and his fabled knowing where to stand as soon as the bat hit the ball, or "at the crack of a bat", I think it was said. Still, you seem to indicate that TC was very good at this. Is that what you're saying?"

(Bill - Joe was a very storied fielder too, but nowhere in the Speaker class. It was a pretty well-known fact that Joe's brother Dom, was quite a bit better defensively than Joe was, but lacked offense. It was a toss-up if Joe's other brother, Vince, was better defensivly. Many felt he was.

Joe Sewell, who played with Speaker, told that every time a hit was to CF, he'd turn to see Speaker go for it. He claims that he never once saw Speaker turn. He said that whenever he turned his head, he'd see Speaker in full flight, back to the infield, sprinting like a bat out of hell. Speaker always said, the crack of the bat was too late. One had to start before the sound. Really getting into pychic perception, but we're not supposed to talk about that stuff, so . . . DiMag confirmed that the "crack of the bat" was too late in starting for a ball. Now that's outfielding!

Tris wrote Joe several letters in the Sporting News, urging Joe to play closer in. Joe always set up very deep in Yankee Stadium, much too deep for Speaker's taste. He felt Joe could have developed the instincts to go back, and said so in print on several occasions. Joe's very good pal, Ty, also urged Joe to be more daring and come in more. But Joe was far too consevative to trust in his backward flight that much. In a CF as deep as the Stadium, if a ball got away from him over his head, Joe felt that would have been catastrophic, and result in an inside-the-park homer, on him. So Joe stayed WAY back and let a ton of Texas bloopers fall in front of him and he'd come in, trap the balls, and fire them back to his cut-offs. Much too conservative a style, but that's what happened. DiMag was a conservative guy. But at least he never looked bad.)

[64Cards]

1B-Hernandez
2B-Mazeroski
3B-B.Robinson
SS-O. Smith
LF-Yaztremski
CF-Mays
RF-Clemente
C-Bench
p-Gibson

[Brock20]

C- Rick Ferrell
1b- Hernandez
2b- Gehringer
SS- Ozzie
3B- Brooks
LF- Yaz
CF- Ashburn
RF- Clemente
P- Maddux

My outfielders are assigned by position; for the 3 best overall, I'd go with Ashburn, Mays, and Speaker.