John McGraw Thread

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Here are McGraw's top teams by winning percentage

Year    W-L     W%   Finish
1904  106-47  .693   NL Champion
1905  105-48  .684   World Series champion
1912  103-48  .682   NL Champion
1913  101-51  .664   NL Champion
1911  99-54   .647   NL Champion
1917  98-56   .636   NL champion
1908  96-56   .636   2nd place
1906  96-56   .632   2nd place
1923  95-58   .621   NL champion
1921  94-59   .614   World Series champion
1924  93-60   .608   NL cahmpion
1922  93-61   .604   World Series champion
1928  93-61   .604   2nd place

[Bill Burgess]

I was actually speaking to Bill Burgess about McGraw's pet just on Friday. According to Bill, McGraw actually owned that "little kittie" and brought it to the ballpark often.

That 'little kittie' was actually a margay. Similar to a wild cat or bobcat. McGraw loved that pet and brought it to the ballpark and made all his Giants pet it! Imagine if anyone did that today?!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

That 'little kittie' was actually a marguay. Similar to a wild cat or bobcat. McGraw loved that pet and brought it to the ballpark and made all his Giants pet it! Imagine if anyone did that today?!

Did McGraw domesticate his marguay? I read up on them and they are about the size of a house cat. My cat, Spartan, is as big as McGraw's marguay. This is he first time I've ever heard about McGraw's marguay. What was it's name?

[Bill Burgess]

Here's an article on the margay. I mispelled it above. Margays

Well, I suppose that McGraw did domesticate his pet, at least for him. Maybe not for the rest of the world.

[steelcurtain76]

Did McGraw domesticate his marguay? I read up on them and they are about the size of a house cat. My cat, Spartan, is as big as McGraw's marguay. This is he first time I've ever heard about McGraw's marguay. What was it's name?

There is more information about this Cat in the book by Franklin Graham..."McGraw of the Giants". If any of you have this book and haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's a great read.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm trying to find out if it's legal to own a margay in California. If it is I'm so getting one! :hyper:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

There is more information about this Cat in the book by Franklin Graham..."McGraw of the Giants". If any of you have this book and haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's a great read.

It sounds like a great book. I'll see if I can track down a a copy. From what I understand the book was published in 1944 so it might be a bit difficult to find.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Any more coments on the Bill James James breakdown on McGraw's managing skills. Agree? Disagree? I was hoping it would generate some lively discussion.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

McGraw and Chief Meyers, 1912.
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McGraw and heavyweight champion Jim Corbett, 1904.
mcgraw2.jpg

McGraw and Todd Sloan (who?), 1906
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McGraw and Johnny Evers, 1912
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McGraw, 1912
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[steelcurtain76]

It sounds like a great book. I'll see if I can track down a a copy. From what I understand the book was published in 1944 so it might be a bit difficult to find.

There are 14 copies on Amazon starting at $3.80. That is where I found my copy. I just purchased "The Real McGraw" written by Mrs. McGraw and Alexander's book on him as well last night on Amazon.

From the books I have read about him, "My 30 Years in Baseball", "McGraw of the Giants" by Franklin, and some excerpts from "Red Legs & Black Sox" by Dellinger, I am convinced that he was well ahead of his time in the game.

One of the interesting stories I have read about McGraw was in "Luckiest Man" by Eig. Eig says that McGraw tried out Gehrig around 1923 or 1924 and passed on him after seeing Gehrig's fielding at 1st Base. Dellinger went into some really good detail on how McGraw passed on Ed Roush for Benny Kauff as well. McGraw was convinced that Kauff was the Ty Cobb of the Federal League. "McGraw of the Giants" went into detail on how McGraw sent Waite Hoyt packing because Hoyt refused to go down to Rochester for more seasoning. Hoyt felt he was ready right then and it hacked McGraw off so bad that he sent him packing. Franklin went into some great detail about what lead to the Frisch for Hornsby trade. McGraw absolutely wore Frisch down with constant needling of him...to the point that Frisch packed his bags, caught a cab, and completely left the team without McGraw even knowing about it.

He was a fascinating guy with quite a presence on the field...and...with a temper that seems to have had very few that were his equal.

The story of the cat is found on page 132 of Franklin's book. It was one of three cubs that a friend of his captured while on a hunting trip in Mexico. The friend killed the mother cat. McGraw named the cat Bill Pennant. It wasn't any bigger than a house cat. He used to scare the life out of the Giants Trainer...Ed Mackal with the cat.

[westsidegrounds]

It sounds like a great book. I'll see if I can track down a a copy. From what I understand the book was published in 1944 so it might be a bit difficult to find.

www.bookfinder.com is a great source for out of print books.

[Bill Burgess]

John J. McGraw on Tyrus R. Cobb. Strangely, John J. didn't get along with the 2 most famous ballplayers of his later years, Cobb and Ruth. He feuded with both. Not strange about the Babe because Babe destroyed the kind of game that John J. helped create.

But McGraw also feuded with Cobb, mostly because they both were such stubborn, egotistical types. Neither had a reverse gear, at least with each other. But, John secretly admired the Peach immensely. He must have taken time out to go watch him play the Yankees, and seeing him bring his (McGraw's) style of game to its highest point of refinement must have impressed him a great deal.

But alas, he could hardly ever bring himself to say it to Cobb himself. But the quotes below prove that he could, on occasion, allow himself to express his admiration, if only occasionally.

1930 - His (McGraw's) deepest admiration went out to Ty Cobb, because Cobb was another firebrand always out to win. The first two qualities he looked for were fight and brains because he knew they were game-winners. (Collier's, April 5, 1930)

1930 - "Wagner could do everything required of a ball player." said McGraw as he sat in the Giants' dugout in the Polo Grounds. "he had tremendous hands and in addition to his great playing ability, had a wonderful disposition and was easy to handle.

I'll place Cobb second and Keeler third. Al Simmons is my next pick as I consider him the greatest ball player of the present day. Like Wagner, he is a right-handed hitter of power and can field his position splendidly and throw fast and accurately.

Simmons is no dumb ball player, either. My own first baseman, Bill Terry, is included in my selection. He is really a great ball player and the best first baseman I have ever seen." (Philadelphia Ledger newspaper, C. William Duncan, late July, 1931) (Survey asked 12 major league managers and coaches, who they thought were the 5 greatest all-around baseball players who ever lived.)

1930 - "My choice of an all-time, all-star team? I'll tell you: Honus Wagner, shortstop and lead-off man, Ty Cobb in center, Willie Keeler in right field, Babe Ruth in left,batting fourth, Lou Gehrig behind him and at first, Rogers Hornsby at second, Jimmy Collins at third, Roger Bresnahan catching and Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson pitching. What a team of sweet hitting, sweet fielding, sweet pitching players that would be. I'd include Ruth as a drawing card and a home run hitter, rather than as a player. But nothing like that will ever happen in baseball, for every manager will always have one or two weak spots. (Sporting News, November 20, 1930.)

1931 - …Bob Davis asked John J. (McGraw) who was the best all-around player in the history of the game, and without a moment's hesitation came back with the answer: "Honus Wagner. In my humble opinion, he stands out as the supreme figure. Wagner had everything, and when I say that, every baseball fan in the United States knows what I mean.

Ty Cobb is a close second. There are a number of other players who have special gifts, but Wagner and Cobb had all the gifts. I doubt if the next generation will see their equal." So McGraw's vote is for Wagner. Anson's was for Cobb and Comiskey's was, and is for the Peach. (The Sporting News, March 19, 1931, pp. 4, by Ernest Lanigan.)

1933 - "There, then, is your ideal ball player, made up, I see, of the qualities of exactly nine of the greatest the game has produced--Matty, Evers, Wagner (on two counts), Jennings, Frisch, Kelly, Speaker, Hornsby and Cobb." The Little Napoleon tilted back his office chair, indicating his last word had been said on the perfect baseball player--without a single mention of the game's most glamorous personage, Babe Ruth.

"What of the Babe?" I inquired, "Doesn't he fit somewhere in the picture?"
"Well," answered McGraw, "you can''t compare his fielding with Speaker's, or his throwing with Kelly's, or his speed with Frisch's, and both Hornsby and Cobb were better, if not as hard, hitters.

As a gate attraction he, of course, tops them all and undoubtedly he is, with the lively ball in the game, the hardest hitter of the past decade. "But I do not see how Ruth can offer to the composite ideal anything that is not to be found perfectly supplied by those mentioned, especially when you consider that the lively ball of his league was fashioned for his special benefit." (Sporting News, December 28, 1933, pp. 7.)

John J. McGraw's greatest compliment to Tyrus Cobb, was not in words but in deed. In early 1927, Cobb was a free agent. There was a bidding war for his services, even though he was 40 yrs. old. Cobb received attractive offers from the Giants, Browns, Dodgers, Athletics, Senators. McGraw offered Ty $40K, plus his own hotel room on the road. Griffith of the Senators offered $50K, "just to show up at the park, whenever he felt like it." Cobb brushed them all off, and signed with Mack for $105,000.

That McGraw would want Cobb at the age of 40 is amazing (cause they hadn't exactly gotten along, what with the Herzog affair and all), but at $40K? Quite a compliment, from one who knew his beans 'bout the old ballgame.

[Bill Burgess]

John J. on The Babe. John feuded with Babe during their careers. But he also said some nice things, too.
-----------------------------------------
1930 - "My choice of an all-time, all-star team? I'll tell you: Honus Wagner, shortstop and lead-off man, Ty Cobb in center, Willie Keeler in right field, Babe Ruth in left,batting fourth, Lou Gehrig behind him and at first, Rogers Hornsby at second, Jimmy Collins at third, Roger Bresnahan catching and Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson pitching. What a team of sweet hitting, sweet fielding, sweet pitching players that would be. I'd include Ruth as a drawing card and a home run hitter, rather than as a player. But nothing like that will ever happen in baseball, for every manager will always have one or two weak spots. (Sporting News, November 20, 1930.)

1933 - "There, then, is your ideal ball player, made up, I see, of the qualities of exactly nine of the greatest the game has produced--Matty, Evers, Wagner (on two counts), Jennings, Frisch, Kelly, Speaker, Hornsby and Cobb." The Little Napoleon tilted back his office chair, indicating his last word had been said on the perfect baseball player--without a single mention of the game's most glamorous personage, Babe Ruth.

"What of the Babe?" I inquired, "Doesn't he fit somewhere in the picture?"
"Well," answered McGraw, "you can''t compare his fielding with Speaker's, or his throwing with Kelly's, or his speed with Frisch's, and both Hornsby and Cobb were better, if not as hard, hitters.

As a gate attraction he, of course, tops them all and undoubtedly he is, with the lively ball in the game, the hardest hitter of the past decade. "But I do not see how Ruth can offer to the composite ideal anything that is not to be found perfectly supplied by those mentioned, especially when you consider that the lively ball of his league was fashioned for his special benefit." (Sporting News, December 28, 1933, pp. 7.)

1923 - With respect to Ruth's historic Tampa HR, I thought you all might be interested in what John McGraw had to say about it. This is taken from his memoirs, written in 1923.

"The longest hit I ever saw, and I feel pretty sure that it was the longest ever made, was a wallop by Babe Ruth in an exhibition game down in Tampa, Florida, off "Columbia" George Smith, who was pitching for the Giants.

I didn't believe it possible for a man to hit a baseball as far as that. He caught the ball squarely on the nose and it started like an ordinary long fly. Instead of coming down, though, it kept rising.

"My God," exclaimed one of the players, "where is that ball going?"

The drive cleared the field, a race track and then the fence. Interest in its length was greater than in the game itself. For the rest of the game that was all we talked about.

To be sure of its length a party of newspaper men and players went out and measured the distance accurately. That ball had traveled 587 feet. Mind you, that is just thirteen feet short of two hundred yards! Can you imagine such a drive?

That hit by Ruth would have cleared the bleachers and the center-field fence in the Polo Grounds. It was easily the longest hit I ever saw, or ever expect to see.

Often I am asked if any of the old-timers like Dan Brouthers or Ed Delahanty could hit a ball as hard as Ruth. My answer is "no." I don't think a man ever lived who could put such force behind a ball. (John McGraw: My Thirty Years in Baseball, by John McGraw, (as told to Boze Bulger), 1923, pp. 183-184.)

Elsewhere in his book, McGraw had this to say about Babe.

"I have chosen him because of his spectacular hitting. Nobody could ever hit a ball like Babe Ruth. He can play any of the outfield positions and as a pinch hitter is supreme. Despite his great bulk and apparent slowness Babe Ruth is a corking good base runner. He has been the greatest drawing card that the game has ever produced.

I have to smile when I realize that I have picked a team for the American League and, in my opinion, have made it so strong as to necessitate keeping Babe Ruth on the bench as a utility outfielder." (John McGraw: My Thirty Years in Baseball, by John McGraw, (as told to Boze Bulger), 1923, pp. 235.)

[TonyK]

If John McGraw had never made it as a ballplayer I could see him as a salesman or a military man. He attended St. Bonaventure but never graduated. He managed his town team when he was only 16, so he was probably born with leadership qualities.

His hometown of Truxton had hundreds of Irish farmers and perhaps McGraw might have worked on a farm or bought his own farm someday? The only break he got as a kid was having a neighbor who played minor league ball take a liking to him.

[ItsOnlyGil]

I can see no reason why the last play of the 1924 World Series did not include a throw home in an attempt to throw out the slowest runner on the field, who was attempting to score, unless McGraw forbade that throw:

From:

Elysian Fields Quarterly

ON HISTORICAL GROUNDS
Bucky and the Big Train
By Bruce Markusen and Ron Visco


…

Earl McNeely then hit a solid grounder toward Lindstrom at third, a tailor-made double-play ball. For the second time in the inning, fate took a hand. "Whatever McNeely's ground ball hit, a pebble or a divot or a minefield, it took a freak high hop over Lindstrom's head into the outfield," wrote Shirley Povich. Left fielder Irish Meusel, anticipating that Lindstrom would field the grounder, got a late start getting to the ball. Incredibly, when he did reach it, he made no throw but put it in his glove and ran off the field as Ruel, the slowest man on the Senators, rounded third and steamed toward home. With Johnson standing on second base, Ruel scored the winning run. Washington and Walter Johnson had taken the victory 4–3 in twelve innings, and with it the world's championship.


http://www.efqreview.com/NewFiles/v1...calground.html