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John McGraw Thread

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Ah...That's the guy that Arnold Rothstein told was a "former" champion.

    Abe Atell: Yeah, but I was champ. Featherweight champeen of the world!
    Arnold Rothstein: Yesterday. That was yesterday.
    Abe Atell: No A.R. you're wrong. I was champ, and can't nothin take that away.

    Abe was 100 percent right, by the way. But he sullied that legacy by becoming Abe Attell, Black Sox conspirator. And can't nothing take that away, either.
    "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"


    • #62
      Too bad McGraw messed up his knee for good in 1903. He likely would have ended up the best player/manager ever.
      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


      • #63
        Seems strange that McGraw's teams walked more in the deadball era than the liveball era. Of course McGraw was one of the first to utilize high OBP, but the team's success was more intermittent as he got away from the approach. I wonder why he allowed that to happen?

        '02 - 16 - 16 with no McGraw until July 17th
        '03 - 5 - 5
        '04 - 1 - 1 pennant (World's Champions though)
        '05 - 1 - 1 World Series
        '06 - 1 - 1
        '07 - 1 - 1
        '08 - 1 - 1
        '09 - 2 - 1
        '10 - 2 - 1
        '11 - 5 - 1 pennant
        '12 - 4 - 1 pennant
        '13 - 10 - 2 pennant
        '14 - 10 - 3
        '15 - 15 - 15
        '16 - 14 - 11
        '17 - 13 - 4 pennant
        '18 - 15 - 11
        '19 - 12 - 9
        '20 - 7 - 10
        '21 - 4 - 4 World Series
        '22 - 9 - 4 World Series
        '23 - 6 - 4 pennant
        '24 - 8 - 5 pennant
        '25 - 13 - 13
        '26 - 16 - 15
        '27 - 8 - 5
        '28 - 12 - 5
        '29 - 11 - 7
        '30 - 13 - 6
        '31 - 15 - 7
        '32 - 15 - 13
        Last edited by bluesky5; 09-30-2019, 10:43 AM.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


        • #64
          The best possible actor to play John J. McGraw would have been the young James Cagney. Couldn't get a better stereo-type.

          I wish I could find that list that McGraw made of the black players he wished he could sign up. That would be interesting. Starting with John Lloyd.

          McGraw was the biggest supporter of bringing black players into baseball. He took his team to Havana, Cuba for many years to play their best players.


          • #65
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            Any more coments on the Bill James James breakdown on McGraw's managing skills. Agree? Disagree? I was hoping it would generate some lively discussion.
            James does not sound quite accurate in his evaluation of McGraw's progressiveism on relief pitching, and other issues:

            --He reportedly made Sandy Piez the first pinch runner in MLB History

            --He was the earliest big proponent of relief pitching. From 1903-1909 the Giants had 104 saves. The second place team in that category, the Cubs, had only 54.

            --He made Doc Crandell one of the first relief specialists. Maybe the first.

            More from the book I'm reading:


            Capture 2.PNG

            Capture 4.PNG


            • #66
              ^^ that was a fantastic piece of info on the great John McGraw, Floyd. Nice post!


              • #67
                I have just published "Young John McGraw Of Truxton" and it is available on Amazon. It covers the first 17 years of McGraw's life in Truxton, NY. I try to resolve various errors found in his previous biographies. You might find it very interesting to read what his friends and local reporters thought of him when he was a teenager.
                "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."


                • #68
                  Great info and pictures on this thread. Love me some John McGraw

                  George Bernard Shaw described John McGraw as "the most typically American man that he ever met."
                  This week's Giant

                  #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry


                  • #69
                    McGraw left his adopted hometown of Baltimore and jumped to the Giants on July 7, 1902. Giants owner Andrew Freedman had been negotiating with him in secret for 2-3 weeks. He signed a four year contract at $11,000 per year to become player, manager and (de facto) general manager. It was the largest amount ever paid for a player and/or manager. Upon arrival he immediately released 9 players, mostly on the 17th, over Freedman's objections. Six players came with him from Baltimore. The final machinations took place on August 12th when it was announced that mastermind and Cincinnati Reds owner John T. Brush had bought controlling interest in the team which was made official in September.

                    Jumped from Baltimore:
                    SS - John McGraw himself started 35 games, all at shortstop, in his last extended playing time.
                    1B - Dan McGann was a solid rough and tumble first baseman and very consistent switch hitter.
                    UT - Roger Bresnahan the flamed out pitching prodigy turned catcher and utility man. Future catching equipment innovator and manager/coach.
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity was already renowned for his stamina, wildness and effectiveness in the majors and minors.
                    UT - Jack Dunn wore out as a pitcher and became a utility infielder. Future owner of the I.L. Baltimore Orioles that was a pipeline of major league talent through the 1930's.
                    CF - Steve Brodie was a long time solid CF for Baltimore and retired after the season.
                    RHP - Jack Cronin never materialized

                    When McGraw got there the Giants roster consisted of the following...

                    1902: 23-50 upon arrival, 25-38 after, finished last:
                    C - Frank Bowerman was a former Oriole teammate already on the Giants and a stalwart behind the plate for McGraw.
                    1B - Hal O'Hagan was a career minor leaguer and was released.
                    2B - Heinie Smith managed the Giants to the tune of 5-27 before McGraw and was shipped out after the season.
                    SS - Joe Bean was released and never played in the majors again. Stuck with Jersey City in the Eastern League for 6 years.
                    3B - Billy Lauder was released after 1903.
                    OF - George Browne was bought from Philadelphia in McGraw's first week and was their spark plug through 1907.
                    OF - Jim Jones was released and caught on with Newark and Montreal of the E.L. for years.
                    OF - George Van Haltren was 36 and a well respected veteran.

                    C - George Yeager was released and signed with Baltimore.
                    OF - Roy Clark was released.
                    SS - Heinie Wagner was released. He caught on as a regular for Boston from 1907-13 and got MVP votes in 2 seasons.
                    OF - Joe Wall was released in August.

                    RHP - Christy Mathewson hung around, I think.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor led baseball with 27 losses in '01 and was a solid 3rd starter through 1908.
                    RHP - Roy Evans was an itinerant major leaguer since 1897. Released and out of the majors after 1903.
                    RHP - Tully Sparks jumped from the Browns before the year. He was released and pitched 8 years with the Phillies.
                    RHP - John Burke made his only career start before McGraw released him.
                    LHP/OF - Libe Washburn was released.

                    McGraw spent much of August and September traveling to A.L. cities trying to clandestinely sign players. Jesse Burkett was one but he decided to stay with the Browns. Ed Delahanty was signed to a 3-year deal during the winter along with Detroit SS Kid Elberfield and Chicago centerfielder Fielder Jones for 1904 and ‘05. Most worrying was that his young star Mathewson and battery-mate Bowerman each took $500 bonuses to sign with the Browns. Luckily, these moves were ruled null and void because the leagues agreed to honor each other’s contracts. Despite the peace deal George Davis tried to jump back to the Giants after a year away with the White Sox. Which caused a huge controversy involving the court system and led to Davis sitting out the entire season after attempting 4 games in July to test the A.L.'s litigiousness. McGraw’s knee gave out in spring training ending any thoughts of extended playing time. His attempts to revamp his infield and get his power hitting outfielder were thwarted.
                    1903: 84-55, 2nd place:
                    C - Jack Warner hit left handed. A long time former Giant sold after 1904.
                    1B - Dan McGann
                    2B - Billy Gilbert came from Baltimore via the Browns after 1902 season.
                    SS - Charlie Babb was 30 and had had a long career in the Interstate League. Traded for Dahlen the coming offseason.
                    3B - Billy Lauder
                    LF - Sam Mertes jumped from the White Sox well before the peace deal. Was outstanding in the field and led the league in RBI and doubles.
                    CF - Roger Bresnahan hit .350
                    RF - George Browne proved a capable lefty lead off man.

                    OF - George Van Haltren had been here since 1894 and was in his final season.
                    IF - Jack Dunn
                    C - Frank Bowerman
                    UT - John McGraw had 15 PA

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson the 'Christian Gentleman' won 30 games and led league in K and the last of 3x straight in wild pitches.
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity the 'Iron Man' led the league in W, G, GS, CG, IP and BF.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor
                    RHP - Jack Cronin led the N.L. in GF with 8.
                    RHP - Roscoe Miller jumped Detroit on 7/21 in '02 and was released in August of this year.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    RHP - Red Ames (20) purchased from Ilion 8/17 and got two starts. A solid starter for NY through 1912.
                    RHP - Bill Bartley (18)

                    Brush and McGraw refused the A.L. offer at an inter-city postseason series like those held in every other two team town which angered many players. Bresnahan and McGinnity publicly declared they wouldn't play in 1904. McGraw solidified the infield by trading Charlie Babb and Jack Cronin to Brooklyn for Bill Dahlen and astute in-season scouting of Devlin to play third base. Young NYSL veterans Wiltse and Ames anchored down the back end of McGraw's most reliable rotation through the decade.
                    The Giants were already a veteran ball club averaging 28 years old. They led the league in scoring and fielding en route to a league record 106 wins.

                    1904: 106-47, 'World Champions’:
                    C - Frank Bowerman split time evenly with Warner.
                    1B - Dan McGann
                    2B - Billy Gilbert
                    SS - Bill Dahlen led the league with 80 RBI.
                    3B - Art Devlin was directly scouted by McGraw and bought from Newark to become a regular through 1911.
                    LF - Sam Mertes led team in doubles and triples.
                    CF - Roger Bresnahan played his last year as a utility man. A role he hated. Led the team in all rate stats.
                    RF - George Browne led the league in runs.

                    C - Jack Warner hit .199 and was sold to the Cardinals in the winter.
                    IF - Jack Dunn played a lot of third base. Left to player/manage Providence in '05.
                    OF - Turkey Mike Donlin was a former Oriole brought in from Cincinnati in a 3 way trade after a drunken episode. He raked the next year then basically lost his career to off field interests and/or problems.
                    CF - Moose McCormick a Bucknell alum was signed late in '03 then traded for Donlin in August.
                    MIF - McGraw played 41 innings in the field all at second and shortstop. Collected his final 4 hits.

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson went 33-12 and led N.L. in games and strikeouts.
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity led the league in W, W%, ERA, G, SHO, SV, IP, BF, ERA+ and WHIP.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor went 21-15 in his top year.
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse was signed by McGraw out of Troy. Went 12-0 in his first 12 starts. Regular through 1912.
                    RHP - Red Ames

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    C - Doc Marshall (28) on his 3rd team of the year as a rookie and hit .353 in 17 AB.
                    LHP - Billy Milligan (25)
                    RHP - Claude Elliot (27) bought from the Reds in August.
                    1B - Dan Brouthers (46) started once at first and PH once.
                    C - Jim O'Rourke (53) caught a full game. Played lots of minor league ball as catcher for his Bridgeport club all these years.

                    After a season of rumors by the end of the year John T. Brush made it clear the Giants would not play Boston in what would have been the second World Series in 1904. The players were again angered at being denied the purse of a postseason series. McGraw didn't try to make any big moves over the winter.
                    The club delivered McGraw, the Giants and the N.L. their first World Series win. He would call the 1905 team the best he ever had.

                    1905: 105-48, World Series winners:
                    C - Roger Bresnahan returned to his spot behind the dish. Leading hitter in the series.
                    1B - Dan McGann
                    2B - Billy Gilbert
                    SS - Bill Dahlen
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Sam Mertes led team in doubles, triples and RBI.
                    CF - Turkey Mike Donlin had his magnus opus season.
                    RF - George Browne

                    C - Frank Bowerman
                    UT/PH - Sammy Strang was mostly a 2B/CF switch hitter bought from Brooklyn in January. McGraw used him to pinch hit 14x. Making him one of the first PH specialists.
                    C/1B - Boileryard Clarke an old Oriole picked up on 4/6 after 4 years in Washington for his final season before being sold to the minors.
                    PR - John McGraw ran 4x stealing one bag.

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson threw his famous 3 complete game shutouts in the World Series this year.
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                    RHP - Red Ames had a career year at 22-8.
                    RHP - Claude Elliot was the only other pitcher to see action besides the rotation.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    RF - Moonlight Graham (27) had his legendary to be moment this season.
                    OF - Bob Hall (26) was loaned to Brooklyn after a game and sent back in the winter. Never saw the show again. Had his best years with Jack Dunn in Baltimore after this.
                    IF - Offa Neal (29)
                    Then the Giants ran into the Tinker-Evers-Chance Cubs teams.

                    1906: 96-56, 2nd place:
                    C - Roger Bresnahan
                    1B - Dan McGann
                    2B - Billy Gilbert was sold to Trenton after the year before resurfacing with the Cardinals in '08-09.
                    SS - Bill Dahlen
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Sammy Strang led baseball with a .423 OBP in 376 PA.
                    CF - Spike Shannon the switch hitting former Cardinals field captain acquired for Mertes. Would go on to be solid player and mentor to young players like Fred Snodgrass.
                    RF - George Browne

                    C/1B - Frank Bowerman
                    OF - Cy Seymour flamed out for NY as a pitcher in the 1890's. Bought in July after being the best hitter in the league in '05. Played well through 1910.
                    CF - Sam Mertes was traded after hitting .237 through 71 games. He claimed to be unpopular with the clubs many Catholics because he was a freemason.
                    C/OF/PH - Doc Marshall was also traded for Shannon after seeing action in 38 games.
                    OF - Mike Donlin played just 37 games due to a broken ankle sustained early in the campaign.

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson was ill with typhus early and his ERA dropped to nearly 3.00
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity led the league in wins and games in his last dominant year.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                    RHP - Red Ames
                    RRP - Cecil Ferguson led baseball in GF and saves in 50 innings over 21 outings.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    IF - Jack Hannifin (23)
                    C - Aleck Smith (35) a former Giant (‘01) and Oriole (‘99, ‘02) in final major league campaign.
                    OF - Frank Burke (26)
                    C - Matty Fitzgerald (25)
                    RHP - Henry Mathewson (19) got his only career start this season.
                    Age was now catching up to Dahlen, Seymour and stalwarts Browne, Taylor, McGann, Bowerman and McGinnity. Donlin sat out over a contract dispute with Brush and became a touring actor with his wife.

                    1907: 82-71, 4th place:
                    C - Roger Bresnahan was discontented sharing catching duties with over the hill Bowerman.
                    1B - Dan McGann was 35 and the second best hitter on the team. Was in a fistfight with McGraw in May. Missed most of the second half with a broken arm from on field collision.
                    2B - Larry Doyle was signed by top scout Dick Kinsella for a record $4500 on July at 20 to replace Cork and Gilbert. Became team captain and starter through 1920. Made the famous quote "It's good to be young and a Giant."
                    SS - Bill Dahlen hit .207 at age 37.
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Cy Seymour led the team in RBI at age 34. Picking up the slack for Donlin.
                    CF - Spike Shannon hit leadoff and led the league in runs.
                    RF - George Browne hit .260 the second year in a row and scored just 54 runs.

                    C/1B - Frank Bowerman is now 38 but hit better than he had in years.
                    OF - Sammy Strang
                    2B - Tommy Corcoran the excellent old Reds shortstop was released in July after he couldn't fill Billy Gilbert's shoes at age 38.
                    IF - Jack Hannifan came over from Baltimore (E.L.) managed by old pal Hughie Jennings and hit ok in 168 PA. Sold to the Braves early in 1908.
                    MIF - Danny Shay didn't hit in his last MLB shot.

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity was 36 and winding down with an 18-18 record. Still a workhorse he led N.L. in G, GF and saves.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor slipped a bit at age 32.
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse threw a whopping 330 innings.
                    RHP - Red Ames
                    RHP - Mike Lynch was signed from Pittsburgh in June and didn't pitch well in 10 starts. Never saw the majors again.
                    RRP - Cecil Ferguson had a 119 ERA+ in scaled back role.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    1B - Fred Merkle (18) hit .259 in 15 games.
                    C - Matty Fitzgerald (26)
                    C - Harry Curtis (24) the Notre Dame baseball captain
                    1B - Monte Pfyl (21)
                    OF - Ham Wade (27)
                    RHP - Roy Beecher (23)
                    RHP - Henry Mathewson (20)

                    Things began to change this offseason. McGraw was slowly adding pieces to the club that would win 3 straight pennants from '11-13 while trying to win now. He traded Dahlen, McGann, Bowerman and Browne to the Braves for Fred Tenney (36), Tom Needham (29) and Al Bridwell (24).
                    The high pressure pennant race with Pittsburgh and Chicago ended in the 'Merkle's Boner' incident.

                    1908: 98-57, 2nd place:
                    C - Roger Bresnahan finally had the catching job to himself.
                    1B - Fred Tenney a veteran of excellent and poor Boston infields led the league in runs while mentoring the young infielders.
                    2B - Larry Doyle
                    SS - Al Bridwell played very well.
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Turkey Mike Donlin decided to show up this season and be easily the best hitter on the team. He would retire to become an actor full time after the year.
                    CF - Cy Seymour
                    RF - Moose McCormick was bought back from the Phillies after being traded for Donlin back in '04. Considered the top PH of the day.

                    2B - Buck Herzog would see 3 stints and 4 World Series in NY.
                    OF - Spike Shannon was claimed by Pittsburgh off waivers in July.
                    C - Tom Needham played his only season in NY before 6 more with the Cubs.
                    OF - Shad Barry was bought in August and seeing his last major league action at 29.
                    2B - Sammy Strang hit .094 and was sold to Dunn's Orioles in the summer.
                    1B - Fred Merkle

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson had his finest season leading the league in more categories than not (literally). Would lead league in ERA+ the next 5/6 years.
                    RHP - Joe McGinnity didn’t pitch until May 30th and cleared waivers once in his final season. He pitched in the minors regularly until age 54.
                    RHP - Dummy Taylor went to the minors after the year where he played until age 40.
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                    RHP - Red Ames
                    RHP - Doc Crandall was bought from Cedar Rapids the prior September. Pitched mediocre at best in 24 starts.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    OF - Josh Devore (20) another left handed lead off man.
                    C - Fred Snodgrass (20) the future CF McGraw discovered. He worked hard on developing him from his days as a pitcher and catcher.
                    OF - Steve Evans (23) was in 2 games. Left to play 5 years as a regular for the Cardinals then tore up the F.L. before heading to minors.
                    IF - Jack Hannifan (25)
                    UT - Dave Brain (29) finished with a 15 OPS+ after a career year where he had a 134 OPS+ and led N.L. in HR with Boston.
                    C - Art Wilson (22)
                    LHP - Rube Marquard (21) got his first little cup of coffee as Freedman was convinced to sign the ‘$11,000 beauty' - i.e. the most ever paid for a player - on July 1st with a quickly aging staff.
                    RHP - Bull Durham (31) namesake of the iconic film.
                    RHP - Bill Malarkey (29)
                    RHP - Roy Beecher (24)

                    In December Roger Bresnahan was traded for Admiral Schlei, Red Murray (StL best hitter) and Bugs Raymond (StL best P). Bresnahan was a hot managerial prospect, was growing restless and wanted the opportunity as much as he needed it. The Cardinals reciprocated his feelings.
                    McGraw hired one of his two best friends and former Oriole backstop Wilbert Robinson to coach pitchers and catchers in the spring. They tried out lots of young pitchers. His work led to "Robbie" becoming a full-time assistant. Arlie Latham was hired as third base coach and would last two seasons. The infielders really carried this team offensively and defensively that again lacked a great hitter to put them over the top.

                    1909: 92-61, 3rd place:
                    C - Admiral Schlei was ok offensively and above average defensively as he always was.
                    1B - Fred Tenney was winding down in his last year with the club before one last go with the Braves.
                    2B - Larry Doyle
                    SS - Al Bridwell
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Red Murray led the team in triples, steals and RBI and the league in HR with 7.
                    CF - Bill O'Hara in his only (full) season in the majors outside 3 PA. Was the worst hitting regular. McGraw got him from old buddy Jack Dunn in Baltimore. O'Hara then went home to Toronto for 6 years to wind down his minor league career.
                    RF - Moose McCormick hit well but couldn't run real well anymore. Left the club to become a salesman for 2 years and then returned in '12.

                    OF - Cy Seymour could still hit. But didn't play as much as O'Hara.
                    C - Chief Meyers was an Indian about to become the best hitting catcher of the decade.
                    LF/UT - Buck Herzog hit just .185 in 148 PA and was traded after the year.
                    1B - Fred Merkle hit just .191 in 79 games but was still taking over the first base job.
                    SS - Art Fletcher got purchased from Dallas after he started arguments with Giants players in game and routinely tried to spike them on the bases. McGraw said "...he's my kind of player." and signed him on the spot. A year younger than Bridwell. He was about to become the SS through teens.
                    OF - Fred Snodgrass got 81 PA mostly in the OF.
                    C - Art Wilson caught 19 games. Became a reliable catcher.
                    UT - Tillie Shafer a speedster signed from baseball powerhouse Santa Clara University. He was from a wealthy family that didn't want him to play. Didn't get along with his more blue collar teammates or enjoy the east coast lifestyle.
                    2B - Arlie Latham the 49 year old coach saw action in 4 games becoming the oldest man to steal a base.

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson
                    RHP - Bugs Raymond was a spitballer, the 3rd best pitcher at 18-12. Ended the season suspended after drinking binges.
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                    RHP - Red Ames
                    LHP - Rube Marquard went a disappointing 5-13.
                    RCL - Doc Crandall became the first modern relief ace. Took to it like a duck to water. First of 5 straight years leading baseball in games finished. “Crandall was one of the coolest pitchers I ever saw.” McGraw recalled. “He had no fear, no nerves.”

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    OF - Josh Devore (21)
                    LRP - Jake Weimer (35) was bought from the Reds in July to see if he still had it and got a 3 inning shot before being released.
                    RHP - Al Klawitter (20)
                    RHP - Louis Drucke (20)
                    RHP - George Daly (21)
                    RHP - Bull Durham (32)
                    RHP - Red Waller (26)
                    Davore, Meyers, Snodgrass and Merkle would break into the starting lineup supplementing the three young infielders. The pitching staff was a veteran unit but thin and in flux trying out five young hurlers again. McGraw hadn't and wasn't going to get his big slugger. He had put together a group of young, fundamentally sound, all-star caliber, dark horse MVP candidate players. Doyle emerged as the best of them all. In his classic Pitching in a Pinch, Christy Mathewson wrote about the impact of Devore and the other Giants runners Fred Snodgrass, Red Murray, Fred Merkle and Larry Doyle. He said, “Once they get on the bases they were like loose mercury. They couldn’t be caught. McGraw stole his way to a pennant with this quintet of runners.”

                    1910: 91-63, 2nd place:
                    C - Chief Meyers caught 117 games with a .285 average.
                    1B - Fred Merkle led team in doubles and slugging.
                    2B - Larry Doyle was really developing.
                    SS - Al Bridwell
                    3B - Art Devlin
                    LF - Josh Davore hit leadoff and was among the team leaders in all but RBI and slugging.
                    CF - Fred Snodgrass paced the club in BA, OBP and OPS+.
                    RF - Red Murray led in RBI and steals again.

                    CF - Cy Seymour playing his last season in NY before a 38 game stint in '13 with the Braves.
                    OF - Beals Becker was acquired for Herzog and put up a 130 OPS+ the year after leading baseball in strikeouts.
                    IF - Art Fletcher played in 51 games.
                    OF - Wee Willie Keeler signed in May and went 3-10 with 10 walks and 5 runs in his final 19 games.
                    C - Admiral Schlei hit really bad.
                    C - Art Wilson

                    Pitching staff:
                    RHP - Christy Mathewson
                    RHP - Bugs Raymond was easily the worst pitcher on the team at 4-11 the only one with a losing record. His alcoholism was out of control and was suspended for the year in late June.
                    LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                    RHP - Red Ames was lost for the year in September.
                    RHP - Louis Drucke pitched well but flamed out after this year.
                    LHP - Rube Marquard only got 70 innings and went 4-4 in 8 starts.
                    RCL - Doc Crandall also pitched for Ames in September winning 7 CG in 8 starts.

                    Cups of coffee (age):
                    IF - Tillie Shafer (21) found out he was trade bait over the winter so he sat out 1911.
                    1B - Hank Gowdy (23) was signed out of Dallas like Fletcher and would have a long career as a catcher with the Braves before returning in '23.
                    CF - Elmer Zacher (29) saw one inning before the Cardinals bought him on 5/8 in only MLB season.
                    RHP - Dick Rudolph (22) a native to NY and Fordham grad. He became the ace and World Series hero for the miracle Braves.
                    RHP - Walt Dickson (31)
                    LHP - Ed Hendricks (25)
                    RHP - Al Klawitter (21)
                    Last edited by bluesky5; 07-14-2021, 01:40 PM.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


                    • #70
                      The Polo Grounds burned down the night after opening day so first half home games were at the A.L.’s Hilltop Park. McGraw had cut ties with all the vestiges of the early pennants except for the incomparable Mathewson and soon to be sold Devlin. He built a new powerhouse that came together this year. This club stole a modern record 347 bases. They would run into the ‘$100,000 Infield’ and particularly Home Run Baker.

                      1911: 99-54, pennant winners:
                      C - Chief Meyers caught 117 games and hit .285.
                      1B - Fred Merkle led in RBI and was MVP-7.
                      2B - Larry Doyle finished 3rd for MVP. Team leading 102 runs, 163 hits, 25 doubles, 25 triples, 13 HR and BA/OBP/SLG/OPS+, TB, second in sacrifices.
                      SS - Art Fletcher finally takes over for good.
                      3B - Art Devlin was sold to Boston just before the 1912 season.
                      LF - Josh Davore hit leadoff and topped club in steals, second in runs and hits.
                      CF - Fred Snodgrass was awesome all-around.
                      RF - Red Murray

                      OF - Beals Becker didn't hit real well. Ran well and played decent OF.
                      3B - Buck Herzog was acquired for Hank Gowdy and Birdwell.
                      SS - Al Bridwell’s legs were going so he was traded to Boston in July.
                      C - Art Wilson hit really well again.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson was MVP-2
                      LHP - Rube Marquard stepped up to go 24-7 and led the N.L. in K's after being extensively reinvented by McGraw and Wilbert Robinson. MVP-7
                      LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                      RHP - Red Ames
                      RHP - Louis Drucke went 4-4 in his last ten starts ever.
                      RLR - Bugs Raymond started in 9, relieved in 8 as a junk time pitcher in his last major league season which ended in another suspension.
                      RCL - Doc Crandall pitched well in all 3 World Series.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      OF - Turkey Mike Donlin (33) showed up for 12 games and of course he raked before getting sold to the Braves in August for being a dick.
                      C - Grover Hartley (22) would see two 3 year stints with the club getting 35+ PA once.
                      OF - George J. Burns (21) would soon become the leadoff man as well as one of the best and most consistent Giants of the decade.
                      1B - Gene Paulette (20) was in the minors until he became a solid backup for 3 teams from 1917-20 before retiring.
                      1B - Hank Gowdy (21)
                      C - Admiral Schlei (33) pinch hit once and spent final 3 years in the minors.
                      RHP - Bert Maxwell (23) pitched well completing all 3 starts.
                      RHP - Dick Rudolph (23) went 25-10 in Toronto with old Oriole Joe Kelley.
                      RRP - Victory Faust (30) he of the windmill windup.
                      1912: 103-48, pennant winners:
                      C - Chief Meyers led the team with .358/.441/.477/147 OPS+ and finished MVP-3.
                      1B - Fred Merkle
                      2B - Larry Doyle led the team in TB, RBI, doubles, hits, and runs and was second to Meyers in all rate stats. Won the Chalmers Award.
                      SS - Art Fletcher
                      3B - Buck Herzog
                      LF - Josh Davore saw less time than last year.
                      CF - Fred Snodgrass dropped off slightly at the plate. Famously misjudged a ball in the World Series loss to Boston.
                      RF - Red Murray had been surpassed in talent but his numbers stayed the same.

                      OF - Beals Becker saw a good bit of time and didn't embarrass himself.
                      C - Art Wilson hit pretty good.
                      IF - Tillie Shafer came back and hit .288 in 204 PA.
                      PH/OF - Moose McCormick came back with a 144 OPS+ in 45 PA.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson
                      LHP - Rube Marquard had his famous winning streak this season. MVP-8
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was made a success by Robinson. He lead the N.L. in ERA and won 16 games - almost all after mid-July. He would be a solid #2 quality guy for the next six years.
                      LHP - Hooks Wiltse
                      RHP - Red Ames
                      RCL - Doc Crandall

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      IF - Heinie Groh (22) would soon find fame in Cincinnati with his bottle bat and later return to the Giants.
                      C - Grover Hartley (23)
                      OF - George J. Burns (22) saw action in 29 games.
                      OF - Dave Robertson (22)
                      RHP - Al Demaree (27)
                      RHP - La Rue Kirby (22) resurfaced as an OF with the Maroons of the F.L. A career minor leaguer otherwise.
                      RHP - King Bader (24)
                      RHP - Ted Goulait (22)
                      RHP - Louis Drucke (23)
                      RHP - Ernie Shore (21) was farmed to Baltimore and sold with Babe Ruth to the Red Sox and Yankees.
                      1913: 101-51, pennant winners:
                      C - Chief Meyers paced the club with .312/.387/.410/126 OPS+ and finished MVP-5.
                      1B - Fred Merkle hit .261
                      2B - Larry Doyle
                      SS - Art Fletcher rebounded with the stick.
                      3B - Buck Herzog hit well in 96 games.
                      LF - George J. Burns won the leadoff spot and led in doubles, steals, hits and runs.
                      CF - Fred Snodgrass rebounded for a really good year.
                      RF - Red Murray saw his production drop.

                      3B/UT - Tillie Shafer played 81 games at third base in his only full season and had a 117 OPS+. He retired because he didn't want to play anymore. McGraw refused to release his rights to the minors through 1926 and straight offered him the 3B job every offseason through the rest of the teens.
                      C - Art Wilson
                      OF - Moose McCormick hit ok in 86 PA.
                      C - Larry McLean was acquired after Meyers broke his thumb. Was a solid regular for the Reds for 6-7 years. Played every game of the WS and hit 6-12 (.500). Tallest catcher ever at 6’5.”
                      IF - Eddie Grant was bought in June for more infield depth.
                      OF - Josh Devore traded May 22nd with Ames and Groh after 16 games then was sold to the Phillies after 52 more.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson was MVP-4 at 25-11.
                      LHP - Rube Marquard went 23-10
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was 22-13
                      RHP - Al Demaree was bought last season and went 13-4 in 25 starts.
                      LHP - Hooks Wiltse was limited to 50 innings.
                      RHP - Red Ames had a 147 ERA+ in 5 starts before being dealt for Fromme.
                      RLR - Art Fromme got 12 starts, 15 relief appearances and wasn't too good.
                      RCL - Doc Crandall had an odd year. Became the first pitcher with 30+ relief appearance. He was traded to the Cardinals for McLean and then bought back by NY 13 days later. He jumped to the St. Louis Feds in the winter then spent 13 years as a starter in the PCL mostly with the Angels.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      IF - Heinie Groh (23)
                      C - Grover Hartley (24)
                      OF - Jim Thorpe (26) was the best athlete on the planet at the time and got in 19 games.
                      OF - Claude Cooper (21) saw little time out of TCU but raked and threw away his career jumping to the F.L.
                      SS - Milt Stock (19) was traded for in September and got in 7 games. Would have a good career with the Cardinals and Phillies.
                      LHP - John Merritt (18) played with St. Paul 8/15 MiLB seasons. Never saw majors again.

                      After the final game of the World Series McGraw and Robinson attended a dinner to honor the old Orioles. The two got in a fight over mistakes made in the series that ended physically. Robinson would leave to manage Brooklyn where he became a legend. This particular off-season McGraw signed many players to 2-3 year deals to stave off the Federal League raids. Washed up Crandall and Wilson were the only players to defect.
                      In spring training McGraw saw Babe Ruth in an exhibition against old friend Dunn’s Orioles. He asked for first chance to sign him but that was eventually given to Connie Mack who referred Dunn to Boston. The Giants were in first most of the summer but blew the season by finishing 10.5 behind the miracle Braves who were in last place on Independence Day. The pitching staff was a serious weak spot.

                      1914: 84-70, 2nd place:
                      C - Chief Meyers is still one of the better hitters on the club.
                      1B - Fred Merkle's a bit better.
                      2B - Larry Doyle
                      SS - Art Fletcher
                      3B - Milt Stock was 20 and serviceable with the bat.
                      LF - George J. Burns led the team in runs (N.L.), hits, doubles, steals (N.L.), TB, BA/OBP/SLG/OPS+ and was MVP-4.
                      CF - Bob Bescher had a darn good year and was traded to the Cardinals for Pol Perritt in March.
                      RF - Fred Snodgrass was an average hitter and played CF, RF and 14 games at first.

                      IF - Eddie Grant was bought from the Reds in June for more infield depth.
                      OF - Dave Robertson had a 99 OPS+ after a cup of coffee in '12.
                      OF - Red Murray hit just .223 in 156 PA.
                      C - Larry McClean caught 74 games.
                      PH - Mike Donlin never saw the field and didn't rake in 35 PA in his last season in the bigs.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson was 24-14 but starting to fade.
                      LHP - Rube Marquard went 12-22!!
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was easily their best pitcher. Paced N.L. in starts and shutouts and went 26-10 to finish MVP-6.
                      RHP - Al Demaree went 10-17 and would be traded in the offseason.
                      RLR - Marty O'Toole was a prize prospect in Pittsburgh bought 8/14. However his spit ball never translated to the majors. Showed flashes, led N.L. in shutouts in 1912 but couldn't quite put it together. Never got another shot at the show.
                      LHS - Hooks Wiltse was limited to 38 innings and no starts.
                      LLR - Art Fromme wasn't nearly as good as Crandall who was in the F.L. now. Also started 12 games.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      PH/OF - Jim Thorpe (27) didn't hit in 31 AB.
                      PR/OF - Sandy Piez (24) hit .375 in 8 AB and pinch ran 33x in his only major league season.
                      C - Hickory Johnson (30)
                      C - Harry Smith (24) hit .429 in 7 AB but never stuck in the majors in 4 tries.
                      2B - Fred Brainard (22) would spend ten more years in the I.L. and A.A.
                      1B - Walter Holke (21)
                      SS - Ben Dyer (21)
                      IF - Desmond Beatty (21)
                      RHP - Eric Erickson (22)
                      RRP - Rube Schauer (23)
                      RRP - Hank Ritter (20)
                      RRP - Al Huenke (23
                      It all fell apart in 1915. Monte Ward lured Rube Marquard to Brooklyn in the F.L. but was bought back by paying Ward the $1500 bonus he gave to Rube. McGraw brought in six pitchers age 25 and under. The new pitchers didn't produce. Mathewson was a shadow of himself. His catchers were aging and the youngsters there were no good. Almost no one hit and worst of all they were slow on the basepaths. In another attempt at getting a slugging OF McGraw stole Benny Kauff from the F.L. but when he took the field the authorities were alerted forcing his return to the Feds.

                      1915: 69-83, last place:
                      C - Chief Meyers was 34 and not hitting.
                      1B - Fred Merkle had a really good rebound year and is easily the second best hitter.
                      2B - Larry Doyle raked and paced the ball club in everything but triples and steals and the N.L. in hits, doubles and average.
                      SS - Art Fletcher didn't hit.
                      3B - Hans Lobert came in for Stock, Demaree and Bert Adams in the winter from the Phillies. Didn't hit well. Once among the fastest men in the game but his knees were beginning to fail him.
                      LF - George J. Burns was damn solid but not 1914 good.
                      CF - Fred Snodgrass was sent to the Braves in August with a .215 BA after he didn’t run out a grounder. He played one more year.
                      RF - Dave Robertson had a 117 OPS+ as a regular.

                      IF - Eddie Grant hit really bad and never played again.
                      OF - Red Murray hit just .220 in 134 PA before his August release.
                      IF - Fred Brainard played just two games in each season around this 274 PA, .201 BA effort and never saw the bigs again.
                      C - Red Dooin longtime Phillies stalwart was claimed off waivers from Reds in July and didn't hit in his last real season.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson went 8-14 in just 24 starts.
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was easily their best pitcher.
                      LHP - Rube Marquard went 9-8 before wiggling his way to old McGraw buddy Robinson in Brooklyn.
                      RHP - Pol Perritt wasn't quite average.
                      RHP - Sailor Stroud wasn't too good in only full season besides 1910 with the Tigers.
                      LHP - Rube Benton was bought from the Reds in August and would have 3 real solid years here.
                      RRP - Rube Schauer was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
                      RRP - Hank Ritter was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
                      LRP - Ferdie Schupp was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
                      LRP - Art Fromme threw 12 innings and was finished as a big leaguer.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      C - Harry Smith (25) jumped to the Feds mid-season.
                      C - Lew Wendell (23) was just not hitting, never stuck in the bigs. NYC native didn’t pan out as catcher in waiting.
                      OF - Jim Thorpe (28) wasn't panning out with his best yet 80 OPS+ in 54 PA.
                      CF - Marty Becker was bought from Lewiston in the New England League in August for his only 59 PA in the majors.
                      C - Larry McClean (33) went 5-33 before being released after a drunken fight with McGraw.
                      OF - Charlie Babington (20) got a shot to play in CF fresh out of Brown and hit .242 in his only season in the bigs.
                      1B - High Pockets Kelly (19) got his first 41 PA.
                      OF - Marty Becker (25)
                      OF - Merwin Jackson (20)
                      C - Bobby Schang (28) the older brother of Wally. Wouldn’t see the majors again until he was 40. Spent 17 years in minors mostly in AAA.
                      IF - Ben Dyer (22)
                      C - Brad Kocher (27) bought from Toronto with Herbert.
                      3B- Howard Baker (27)
                      RHP - Fred Herbert (28)
                      LHP - Emilio Palmero (20) an early Cuban went 0-2 at 20 in two starts.
                      McGraw tried to fill gaps with F.L. players - Rariden, Kauff, Roush, McKechnie and Anderson which were all good moves. Christy Mathewson was traded to the Reds with young Edd Roush and Bill McKechnie so Mathewson could manage. Best trade in Reds history as Roush and McKechnie were huge for Cincinnati up until WWII. The pitching staff was still not up to par but was young and improving,

                      1916: 86-66, 4th place:
                      C - Bill Rariden was 29 and bought from Newark (F.L.) in December and was serviceable the next 3 years.
                      1B - Fred Merkle was traded to Brooklyn in late August for Lew McCarty.
                      2B - Larry Doyle hit pretty good and got flipped for Zimmerman in August.
                      SS - Art Fletcher raked again.
                      3B - Bill McKechnie
                      LF - George J. Burns improved and led the N.L. in runs.
                      CF - Benny Kauff the 'Ty Cobb of the F.L.’ wasn't quite that good but led them in triples, RBI, OBP, OPS+ filling a gaping hole from last year. He and McGraw got on great.
                      RF - Dave Robertson topped the league in HR with 12 and the team in hits, BA, SLG and TB.

                      IF - Buck Herzog was back in the Reds trade after they fired him as manager. Was the top infield reserve.
                      3B - Heinie Zimmerman the old Cubs stalwart hit ok as a regular.
                      1B - Walter Holke took over first base after Merkle and hit .351 in 111 AB to earn the job next year.
                      3B - Hans Lobert didn't hit in 84 PA.
                      C - Lew McCarty had a .397 average in 68 AB.
                      C - Brad Kocher got in 34 games at catcher and was terrible.
                      1B - High Pockets Kelly had 84 PA and didn't hit.
                      IF - Mickey Doolin was the Phillies SS for a decade signed in June and got 18 games in.
                      C - Red Dooin got 17 PA and was done.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Christy Mathewson threw 65 innings before being traded. He would pitch one more game, a CG, W over Mordecai Brown.
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was 18-14
                      LHP - Rube Benton was 16-8
                      RHP - Pol Perritt was 18-11
                      LHP - Slim Sallee improved his ERA+ 100 pts after 7/23 purchase from the Cardinals.
                      RHP - Fred Anderson was bought from Buffalo (F.L.) and pitched real bad.
                      RRP - Rube Schauer was poor in limited action.
                      RRP - Sailor Straub threw 46 innings.
                      LCL - Ferdie Schupp posted an 0.90 ERA, 9-3 record, 17 GF, 11 GS, 8 CG, 4 SHO, 140 IP, 272 ERA+.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      CF - Edd Roush (23) was bought from Newark (F.L.). He didn’t like McGraw or New York. He was traded away to win 2 of the next 3 N.L. batting titles.
                      1B - Herb Hunter (20)
                      3B - Fred Brainard (24)
                      C - Lew Wendell (24)
                      UT - Red Killefer (31)
                      2B - Heinie Stafford (24) was a very fast player from Tufts University.
                      IF - Jose Rodriguez (22)
                      C - Duke Kelleher (22) a native of NYC and Princeton grad.
                      LHP - Emilio Palmero (21) got his last chance and went 0-3.
                      RRP - George Smith (24) just graduated Columbia.
                      RRP - Hank Ritter (22)
                      McGraw was trying to find a youngster to replace Doyle to no avail. The pitching staff solidified and the outfield raked while Zimmerman picked up for Doyle's loss. Solid defensively all-around as usual. McGraw pieced together this pennant winner real quick.

                      1917: 98-56, pennant winners:
                      C - Bill Rariden hit real good in 101 games.
                      1B - Walter Holke the switch hitter didn't live up to expectations but was average.
                      2B - Buck Herzog was never going to be Doyle but he did a good job.
                      SS - Art Fletcher
                      3B - Heinie Zimmerman was really good. Old pro led squad in RBI.
                      LF - George J. Burns paced the N.L. in runs and walks. Led the team in runs, hits, doubles, steals, OBP/SLG/OPS+ and TB.
                      CF - Benny Kauff was among the team leaders in about everything.
                      RF - Dave Robertson led the league in HR with 12 but slumped otherwise. This was his final season with the Giants as he refused to play for McGraw any longer.

                      C - Lew McCarty
                      3B - Hans Lobert didn't hit in 59 PA and retired.
                      LF - Joe Wilhoit came in off waivers in August and raked .340 in 50 AB.
                      MIF - Jimmy Smith was claimed from Pittsburgh in the winter and was a solid defender in 36 games.
                      C - George Gibson was the Bucs catcher for 12 years before he came over on waivers 8/15 for 91 PA.
                      OF - Jim Thorpe was back from Milwaukee, quickly sold to the Reds on 4/23 and returned in August.
                      2B - Pete Kilduff was traded for Demaree in August after 31 lackluster games for the youngster.

                      Pitching staff:
                      LHP - Ferdie Schupp looked promising becoming a 21 game winner.
                      LHP - Slim Sallee was 18-7
                      LHP - Rube Benton was 15-9
                      RHP - Pol Perritt was almost better than Schupp.
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was barely ok.
                      RHP - Al Demaree was uninspiring upon his return.
                      RCL - Fred Anderson led the league with a 1.44 ERA, 177 ERA+ and 0.963 WHIP in 160 innings.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      OF - Red Murray was brought back to hit .045 in a 22 PA swan song.
                      OF - Ross Youngs (20) hit .346 in his first 7 games. Would become a McGraw favorite.
                      1B - High Pockets Kelly (21)
                      1B - Jose Rodriguez (23) a Cuban who didn't hit in 20 AB.
                      3B - Ed Hemmingway (24)
                      MIF - Al Baird (22)
                      C - Ernie Krueger (24) came with Kilduff from Omaha. Claimed by Brooklyn in May for solid 5 year run. Bounced around majors and minors for 22 years.
                      C- Jack Onslow (28) career minor leaguer became long time coach beginning in 1925 with Pittsburgh.
                      RRP - George Smith (25)
                      RRP- Jim Middleton (28)
                      RRP - Ad Swigler (21) graduated from Penn.
                      Traded away Buck Herzog, again, to Boston to get back Larry Doyle and soon to be 2x 20 game winner Jesse Barnes. The pitching staff still lacked a consistent dominant ace. Walter Holke wasn't panning out and the rest of the infield was aging. 1918 was shortened due to our involvement in WWI.

                      1918: 71-53, 2nd place:
                      C - Lew McCarty
                      1B - Walter Holke was showing the holes in his game now.
                      2B - Larry Doyle was ill and played just 75 games in his return.
                      SS - Art Fletcher was still solid at the bat.
                      3B - Heinie Zimmerman was solid if not spectacular.
                      LF - George J. Burns played 52 games in CF too.
                      CF - Benny Kauff was limited to 67 games but still almost led in doubles and led in rates except OBP.
                      RF - Ross Youngs led in hits, OBP, BB and the N.L. in strikeouts.

                      C - Bill Rariden didn't hit so good.
                      LF - Joe Wilhoit hit good and was traded in January.
                      IF - Ed Sicking got a chance at 2B/3B but didn't hit.
                      OF/PH - Jim Thorpe was barely a league average hitter in 119 PA.
                      2B - Jose Rodriguez played second base in place of Doyle in 50 games and was atrocious at the dish. Traded in January.
                      C - George Gibson

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Pol Perritt was the only regular and went 18-13.
                      LHP - Slim Sallee was solid but 8-8.
                      LHP - Rube Benton was 15-9
                      RHP - Red Causey the rookie Texan went 11-6.
                      RHP - Fred Toney was purchased from the Reds in July and went 6-2 with a 158 ERA+.
                      RHP - Jeff Tesreau was solid in 9 starts during his final year.
                      RHP - Al Demaree was at least average and then was released in the winter. He became something of a Giant killer against his old club.
                      RHP - Jesse Barnes came off a league-leading 21 losses to go 6-1 with a 1.81 ERA.
                      LLR - Bob Steele bought from the Pirates; the youngster didn't do much better than Anderson in 66 IP.
                      LRP - Ferdie Schupp had his arm go dead the first day of spring training. Bonesetter Reese couldn’t cure him. Threw 33 innings and gave up 28 ER.
                      RHP - Waite Hoyt went on to an HoF career. However he got just one inning in and was traded in the offseason.
                      RCL - Fred Anderson topped N.L. with 3 saves in 70 IP before joining army July 9th. Never played again.

                      Cups of coffee (age):
                      OF - Pete Compton (28)
                      1B - Jay Kirke (30)
                      2B - Bert Niehoff (34) claimed in May but was already a shadow of himself.
                      RHP - George Smith (26)
                      RRP - Jack Ogden would play 8 years on the most dominant of Dunn’s Oriole clubs.
                      RRP - George Ross (26)
                      Mathewson was an assistant in spring training. McGraw brought in a whopping ten young pitchers due to the unreliability of his staff but none stuck immediately except Nehf and Douglas. Jess Barnes and Benton stepped up. They finished behind the Reds who were led by Edd Roush, Heinie Groh and Slim Sallee who was lost on waivers in March and went 21-7; all were former Giants within the last 3 years. McGraw was slowly building and debuting another championship caliber infield.

                      1919: 87-53, 2nd place:
                      C - Lew McCarty hit good in 85 games.
                      1B - Hal Chase was aging and acquired from the Reds for Holke and Rariden. Played well but was shrouded in controversy in his last major league year.
                      2B - Larry Doyle was raking again.
                      SS - Art Fletcher
                      3B - Heinie Zimmerman performed below expectations. He was kicked off the team late in the season and blackballed from the majors for game fixing. Hal Chase was soon to follow.
                      LF - George J. Burns topped the N.L. in runs, steals, BB, OBP
                      CF - Benny Kauff played a full year and led club in HR and RBI.
                      RF - Ross Youngs was right there with Burns.

                      C - Mike Gonzalez a Cuban McGraw met down there in a 1911 altercation. The six year proven vet was purchased in May and didn't hit. Barely played the next 2 years.
                      IF - Frankie Frisch was a native New Yorker and lifelong Giants fan signed from Fordham in June playing 54 games.
                      1B - High Pockets Kelly hit .290 in 107 AB.
                      C - Frank Snyder was a proven vet who they got for Schupp in July to pick up for Gonzalez.
                      IF - Al Baird got his only real season in with 89 PA.
                      OF - Jigger Statz the soon to be PCL legend hit .300 in 60 AB.
                      C - Oil Smith was the product of the big January trade. Played ok in 21 games.
                      OF - Jim Thorpe in his final season was traded to Boston after two games and had his best year by far.

                      Pitching staff:
                      RHP - Jesse Barnes went 25-9 to lead the N.L. in wins.
                      LHP - Rube Benton
                      LHP - Art Nehf was outstanding and 9-2. Traded Red Causey and three others and $55,000 to the Braves for him on 8/1.
                      RHP - Fred Toney solidified himself in the rotation.
                      RHP - Red Causey was 9-3 but not pitching so hot and got flipped.
                      LHP - Ferdie Schupp was traded after 32 IP. Saw his arm come back for a year. Spent nine good years in the A.A. after 1922.
                      RHP - Shufflin Phil Douglas was a spitballer that ruined his career with booze from a young age. Pitched well in 8 starts before suspension for a bender. They got him for Dave Robertson who hadn't played since 1917. He had his best years for McGraw the next 3 seasons. “Douglass [sic] would rank among the first five pitchers every year were he to take care of himself,” wrote Sporting Life. “His ability is unquestioned.”
                      RLR - Pol Perritt was burned out.
                      RCL - Jean Dubuc was solid in his last season and led baseball in games finished.

                      Cups of coffee:
                      OF/PH/PR - Lee King (26) bought from Bucs where he hadn't done much in 3 years.
                      SS - Ed Sicking (22) was traded in May. Out of bigs after '20 spending twelve years in the A.A. mostly with Indianapolis.
                      SS - Jimmy Cooney (24)
                      OF - Chick Bowen (21) a fresh Holy Cross graduate.
                      OF - Bob Kinsella (20) son of the Giants legendary scout Dick played 3/4 career games. Their name was borrowed for Field of Dreams.
                      RHP - Pat Ragan (35) a nine year N.L. vet came over for Thorpe. Released after 4 games.
                      RHP - Rosy Ryan (21)
                      RHP - Bill Hubbell (23) looked promising in 2 CG starts.
                      RHP - George Smith (27) traded to Phillies in May. Went 4-20 in 1921.
                      LHP - Colonel Snover (24) got his only big league games in. Spent next six years with Pittsfield in the E.L. before retiring.
                      RHP - Joe Oeschger (27) acquired in May and traded for Nehf on 8/1.
                      RRP - Jesse Winters (25)
                      RRP - Johnny Jones (26)
                      RRP - Bob Steele (25)
                      RRP - Virgil Barnes (22) was recommended by brother Jess.
                      Last edited by bluesky5; 07-14-2021, 12:59 PM.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


                      • #71
                        The live ball era…

                        McGraw was putting the finishing touches on his final dynasty. McGraw offered 4 players and $200,000 to StL for Hornsby but the Cardinals wanted Frankie Frisch. He attempted to acquire Hornsby again mid-season. Ross Youngs was nearly traded for Edd Roush and SS Larry Kopf. He also inquired about Rabbit Maranville in Boston. Four new infielders were tried out with his middle infielders aging but none stuck. They also brought in six young pitchers again. Center field unexpectedly became a weakness. Johnny Evers came on to coach for one season.

                        1920: 86-68, 2nd place:
                        C - Oil Smith hit .294 in 91 games splitting time equally with Snyder.
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly led NY in HR and N.L. in RBI with premier defense.
                        2B - Larry Doyle hit well but without power in final MLB season. Led in G, PA, AB, H (N.L.), SB, least K's, all rate stats and total bases (N.L.).
                        SS - Dave Bancroft was the best SS in the N.L. acquired on 6/7 for Fletcher and $100,000. Smart, hard-nosed, sign-stealer long 'coveted' by McGraw had the best years of his career with NY.
                        3B - Frankie Frisch had a decent rookie year after suffering appendicitis ten games in.
                        LF - George J. Burns led the league in PA, runs and walks.
                        CF - Lee King played 80 games (all CF) with 118 OPS+.
                        RF - Ross Youngs was easily the best hitter leading in hits, doubles and all rate stats.

                        C - Frank Snyder
                        SS - Art Fletcher was 35, not hitting and was traded. Sat out '21 and played his last year in '22.
                        CF - Benny Kauff was under indictment for grand theft auto with his brother in an offseason incident. Played 51 games with 137 OPS+ before being sold to Toronto where he hit .343 and McGraw reacquired him in the winter. The intent was to give him the CF job back but Landis banned him for life.
                        CF - Vern Spencer hit .200 in his only season in the bigs. Acquired for Kauff and then spent his last 7 years mostly with Buffalo in the I.L.
                        IF - Ed Sicking got his final shot with McGraw.
                        IF - Fred Lear
                        C - Lew McCarty was traded to Cardinals in July after not hitting in 42 PA.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Jesse Barnes went 20-15
                        LHP - Art Nehf was 21-12
                        RHP - Fred Toney was 21-11 and nearly as good as Barnes.
                        LHP - Rube Benton was a disappointing 9-16. In late September the former Red was called to testify a couple times about if he knew the fix was in on the 1919 series and gambling in baseball in general.
                        RHP - Shuffling Phil Douglas went 14-10 in 46 games and 21 starts over 226 innings. Suspended just 2 weeks in July this year.
                        RRP - Jesse Winters threw 46 innings in relief.
                        RRP - Bill Hubbell was sent to the Phillies in July after 30 innings.
                        RRP - Pol Perritt didn’t report until the year was nearly over due to business interests and threw 15 innings in relief.
                        LLR - Slim Sallee was reacquired from Cincinnati in August and was the definition of average for both clubs.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        OF - Jigger Statz (22) was lost to Boston on waivers with a .133 BA in 16 games.
                        C - Mike Gonzalez (29)
                        IF - Al Lefevre (21) a native New Yorker and Fordham grad played 17 games and disappears from the baseball records.
                        2B - Roy Grimes (26) played in the minors 12 more years.
                        C - Alex Gaston (27) became the defensively excellent third catcher and often third base coach for the next four years.
                        OF - Curt Walker (23)
                        3B - Doug Baird (28)
                        CF - Eddie Brown (28) became N.L. regular from '24-28. Spent 20 years in the majors and minors mostly the Texas League and A.A.
                        1B/OF - Pug Griffin (23) spent most of his 15 year career in the Western League.
                        RF - Bob Kinsella (21)
                        RHP - Rosy Ryan (22)
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes (23)
                        RHP - Tom Grubbs (26)
                        RHP - Claude Davenport (22)
                        McGraw greatly enlarged his coaching staff with Hughie Jennings becoming his top assistant and Jesse Burkett coming over from Holy Cross partly to watch Douglas. Hans Lobert joined the staff late in the season from his scouting post. Lou Gehrig tried out for McGraw at the Polo Grounds and was assigned to Hartford under a fake name before his Columbia coach coaxed him away. Again he offered 4 players and $200,000 for Hornsby but again the Cardinals wanted Frisch. The Giants had to use Goldie Rapp and Curt Walker regularly at 3B and CF the first third of the year. In the summer a trade was orchestrated for Heinie Groh who was holding out on the Reds. Landis vetoed the deal. McGraw had a consistent young core of position players he could count on capped off with the July acquisition of Irish Meusel.

                        1921: 94-59, World Series winners:
                        C - Frank Snyder became one half of an all-time great catcher platoon since he started to hit with a .320 average in 108 games.
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly led the club in all power stats and OPS+ and the N.L. with 23 HR.
                        2B - Johnny Rawlings came over with Stengel July 1st. Never hit much in his 12 year career except this years World Series.
                        SS - Dave Bancroft became team captain and had the best hitting season of his career.
                        3B - Frankie Frisch broke out as arguably the Giants best hitter and was their best player. Began the season at second base. Led the league with 49 SB.
                        LF - Irish Meusel came over July 25th from the Phillies where he was suspended and continued to rake. Would be a key cog for the 4 year pennant run.
                        CF - George J. Burns was slowing down but still had a good year. Played 90 games in his usual LF. He was traded for Heinie Groh in December.
                        RF - Ross Youngs

                        C - Oil Smith hit .336 in 89 games.
                        CF - Curt Walker was traded for Meusel after 46 games in center with Mike Gonzalez. He was a good regular corner outfielder for the next 9 years.
                        3B - Goldie Rapp was traded for Stengel after hitting .210 as rookie regular third baseman. Flamed out 2 years later.
                        LF - Lee King hit .223 before Stengel trade.
                        OF/PH - Eddie Brown got traded to the Indianapolis in September for Ralph Shinners.
                        OF - Bill Cunningham in the first of 4 N.L. seasons between 10 total years in the PCL.
                        RF - Casey Stengel became a McGraw favorite. Didn’t hit well this season in limited action.
                        C/1B - Mike Gonzalez finally hit .375 before trade.
                        C - Alex Gaston

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Jesse Barnes slipped to 15-9 but led in ERA, HRA, ERA+ and relieved 11 games.
                        LHP - Art Nehf
                        RHP - Fred Toney
                        RHP - Shuffling Phil Douglas was 15-10 and suspended once. Distinguished himself in the World Series.
                        LHP - Rube Benton was really good but cleared waivers in July as he was persona non grata in the majors after his self-damming testimony. Spent 1922 in St. Paul pitching brilliantly.
                        RLR - Rosy Ryan threw 140 innings trying to get in the rotation after cups of coffee the last two years.
                        LRP - Slim Sallee threw 96 innings all in 37 relief appearances.
                        RRP - Red Causey was reacquired 7/10 for Winters and Monroe and threw 14 innings.
                        RRP - Pol Perritt threw 11 innings in relief before his May release.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        IF - Pat Patterson (24) hit .400 in 35 at bats and drops off the record.
                        IF - John Monroe (23) was traded to Philly for Red Causey on July 10th. Spent the next 16 years in the minors. Mostly the PCL.
                        2B - Joe Berry (26) was an All-American fullback at Penn.
                        IF - Hank Schreiber (29) on his 4th cup with 4 teams in 7 years. Would never stick with anyone.
                        LF - Joe Connolly (27)
                        3B - Wally Kopf (21) a switch hitting Dartmouth grad.
                        2B - Bud Heinie (20) graduated from McGraw's alma mater St. Bonaventure.
                        C - Butch Henline (26) was in Meusel deal. Rookie played ten more years with 5 as a regular in Philly.
                        RRP - Red Shea showed promise he’d never show again and was gone after a cup next season.
                        RRP - Claude Jonnard (23)
                        RRP - Walter Zink (22) an Amherst grad in his only 2 games of pro ball.
                        The Burns trade removed the last member of the 3x pennant winners in the teens. Cozy Dolan became an assistant coach. The pitching situation was dicey. McGraw looked into reacquiring Rube Benton but the Reds got him first.

                        1922: 93-61, World Series winners:
                        C - Frank Snyder hit .343
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly
                        2B - Frankie Frisch was finally at second base. Broke his ankle and missed time early.
                        SS - Dave Bancroft led the team in runs, hits, doubles and walks.
                        3B - Heinie Groh was looking like his best years were behind him at age 32. Did hit .474 in the series.
                        LF - Irish Meusel led team in triples, RBI, BA, SLG, OPS, OPS+.
                        CF - Casey Stengel hit .368 with a 1.000 OPS and league leading 9 HBP in 283 PA as the left end of a platoon.
                        RF - Ross Youngs

                        2B - Johnny Rawlings performed capably but was released in the winter and played four more years with the Pirates.
                        C - Oil Smith
                        OF - Bill Cunningham hit .328 as the right half of the CF platoon.
                        CF - Ralph Shinners didn't show much in 30 games in CF.
                        PH - Dave Robertson the former malcontent was decent in the regular season but then hit .500 in 22 series AB.
                        1B/OF - Lee King was bought back from the minors on 8/3 and had a PH-RBI in the fall classic.
                        C - Alex Gaston

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Jesse Barnes was fading.
                        LHP - Art Nehf
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan was brought in July 30th and pitched little better than trade partner Toney.
                        RHP - Fred Toney was traded after 12 starts.
                        RHP - Shuffling Phil Douglas was the best pitcher on the staff by far the first half. He then sent an incriminating letter that made its way to the wrong hands. He wanted to throw games to lose the Giants the pennant out of hatred for McGraw. Landis banned him for life.
                        RHP - Rosy Ryan really picked up the slack from the rotation with a 130 ERA+ in 22 starts and 24 relief outings over 191 IP to top league with 3.01 ERA.
                        RHP - Jack Scott went 8-2 mostly as a starter after coming over on waivers in the summer.
                        RRP - Red Causey had a 127 ERA+ in 70 IP.
                        RRP - Virgil Barnes had reinvented himself before 1921 with the help from Slim Sallee. He was trying to break into the rotation but couldn't after 9 total innings in '19-20 and 56 this year.
                        RCL - Claude Jonnard showed potential as a relief ace in 96 innings.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        SS - Travis Jackson (18) purchased after 2 years with Little Rock.
                        2B - Freddie Maguire (23)
                        OF - Mahlon Higbee (20)
                        3B - Waddy MacPhee (22) fresh out of Princeton.
                        2B - Joe Berry (27)
                        OF - Ike Boone (25) was good regular for Red Sox in '24-25 and was up and down from AAA through age 35.
                        PR - Cozy Dolan (39) ran once 7 years after he last played in the bigs.
                        RHP - Carmen Hill (26) here in between playing the most for both Pittsburgh and Indianapolis before and after.
                        RHP - Fred Johnson (28)
                        RHP - Clint Blume (23)
                        LHP - Mike Cvengros (21)
                        RRP - Red Shea (23)
                        A new rule instituted a June 15th trade deadline. Jesse Burkett was fired for the Douglas debacle. To remedy the pitching situation McGraw sent $65,000 and three players to old Dunn for Jack Bentley a 28 year old SP/1B/OF called the next Babe Ruth by some. After four forgettable years with Washington he dominated the I.L. the last three years to the tune of a 41-5 record and .349 average. It would be much too little for the rotation as the Giants got just 62 complete games. But the consistent offensive horses carried the club.

                        1923: 95-58, pennant winners:
                        C - Frank Snyder had to pick up the slack for the early departed Smith.
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly
                        2B - Frankie Frisch easily the best player. Led in G, PA, AB, SB, all rate stats and the league in hits and TB.
                        SS - Dave Bancroft missed nearly 50 games with injuries and a bout of pneumonia but played well as ever.
                        3B - Heinie Groh had a small return to form but his knees were starting to bother him.
                        LF - Irish Meusel led the team in triples, HR, RBI (league).
                        CF - Casey Stengel hit .339 in another platoon.
                        RF - Ross Youngs led the N.L. with 121 runs.

                        IF - Travis Jackson filled in mostly for Bancroft and then Groh. Just 1 AB in the series.
                        OF - Bill Cunningham hit quite poorly.
                        CF - Jimmy O'Connell was a hot prospect signed by McGraw before '22 and sent to the minors for seasoning. He faltered when given the CF job out of spring training.
                        C - Oil Smith had been on the trading block since spring training. McGraw, tired of his hard drinking, called him " anarchist with no respect for law and order." He and Jess Barnes were flipped to Boston for Watson and Gowdy on June 7th.
                        CF - Ralph Shinners was sent down in '24 and spent one more year in the majors.
                        C - Hank Gowdy provided much needed relief for Snyder hitting .328 in 53 games after Smith trade.
                        C - Alex Gaston would be sent to Toledo with Jack Scott in the winter.
                        2B/PR - Freddy Maguire was sent to Toledo for 4 years before 4 more in the N.L.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Jesse Barnes was shipped out early with drinking buddy Smith.
                        LHP - Art Nehf had a 4.50 ERA in just 196 innings.
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan was the most effective starter at 15-14 and led in GS, CG, SHO, IP.
                        RHP - Jack Scott went 16-7. At one point was suspended for skipping a road trip to Boston in May. He was sent to Toledo for 1924.
                        LHP - Jack Bentley was 13-8, 4.48 ERA, led team with 80 K while hitting .427 with a 167 OPS+ in 94 PA.
                        RHP - Mule Watson pitched well in 15 starts.
                        RRP - Virgil Barnes was average again.
                        RRP - Rosy Ryan was 16-5 in 15 starts and 30 relief outings to lead N.L. in appearances.
                        RCL - Claude Jonnard was excellent leading the league in G, GF and saves with a 117 ERA+.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        OF - Hack Wilson (23)
                        1B - Bill Terry (24)
                        RF - Mose Solomon (22) a NYC native spent most of his career in the E.L.
                        RHP - Red Lucas (21) broke his ankle playing pepper after 3 games pitched. His manager Larry Doyle tipped off McGraw who sent him to the Texas League. Had good 13 year run with Cincinnati and Pittsburgh.
                        RHP - Rube Walberg (26) didn't impress McGraw who put him on waivers. Connie Mack claimed him and he became a mainstay.
                        RHP - Fred Johnson (29)
                        RRP - Clint Blume (24)
                        RRP - Walt Huntzinger (24) was an All-American basketball player at Penn. Known for distinct windup.
                        In another attempt to shore up his pitching McGraw offered $75,000 to Dunn for Lefty Grove. He tried to trade for Hornsby again finally saying "So far as I'm concerned the proposed deal for Hornsby is off for all-time. I wouldn't trade Frisch for Hornsby or any other player in baseball." New Braves owner Christy Mathewson wanted Bancroft to be his player/manager. McGraw sent his CF platoon of Stengel and Cunningham with for Billy Southworth and journeyman pitcher Joe Oeschger. Already McGraw's late twenties infield is taking shape.

                        1924: 93-60, pennant winners:
                        C - Frank Snyder was back above .300 in 120 games.
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly had a career year leading baseball in RBI with career high rate stats and OPS+.
                        2B - Frankie Frisch took over as captain. Led the league in runs and was third for MVP.
                        SS - Travis Jackson acquainted himself quite well at just 20 years old.
                        3B - Heinie Groh hit .281 dragging himself through another year until Lindstrom had to finish the last ten games and the series.
                        LF - Irish Meusel
                        CF - Hack Wilson hit with power in 434 PA.
                        RF - Ross Youngs

                        OF - Billy Southworth didn't hit for the first time in his six year career. McGraw wanted him since '21.
                        1B/PH - Bill Terry hit .239 in 77 games with 44 as a pinch hitter.
                        2B/3B - Freddie Lindstrom was just 18. Made a name for himself in the World Series.
                        OF - Jimmy O'Connell showed progress hitting .317 with a 126 OPS+ before he offered the Phillies SS Heinie Sand (who told his manager Art Fletcher) $500 to throw a game on 9/27. Told Landis that coach Cozy Dolan told him to do it while implicating Frisch, Youngs and Kelly. Dolan and O'Connell were banned for life.
                        C - Hank Gowdy continued to rake.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes finally made it to the rotation. Only pitcher over 200 innings went 16-10.
                        LHP - Art Nehf rebounded at 14-4
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan was 14-8 and led starters with by half a run with a 2.69 ERA.
                        LHP - Jack Bentley was 16-5 and hit good but just good for a pitcher.
                        RHP - Mule Watson was 7-4
                        RHP - Wayland Dean was bought from Louisville for $50,000 in January and absolutely stank in 20 starts.
                        RRP - Rosy Ryan didn't pitch well in his usual role was traded to Boston next April. In minors well into his 40's with ten years in the A.A.
                        RCL - Claude Jonnard pitched better than ever with a 153 ERA+ in 89 innings. Had a sore arm at times during the year so was released and bounced around the minors until WWII.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        C - Grover Hartley (35) returned in Sept. after 4 years in St. Louis (F.L. and A.L.) and 7 in Columbus for his second 3 year stint.
                        C - Eddie Ainsmith the 14 year vet was dropped after ten games for flaunting team rules.
                        CF - Buddy Crump (22) spent 6/8 seasons in the Virginia League mostly with Portsmouth.
                        RRP - Ernie Maun (23)
                        RRP - Harry Baldwin (24)
                        RRP - Walt Huntzinger (24)
                        RRP - Joe Oeschger (32) pitched good for 29 innings before one more year with Brooklyn.
                        LHP - Dinty Gearin (26) spent 12/15 years with Milwaukee.
                        RHP - Leon Cadore (32) got two games in in final year after nine with Brooklyn.
                        RHP - Kent Greenfield (21) came over with Wilson from Portsmouth in 1923.
                        The Giants started off hot but were plagued by injuries in the field. McGraw missed 32 games early due to sinus problems. Jennings managed to the tune of 21-11. Then the pitching faltered in the dog days of summer as Pittsburgh pulled away steadily and increasingly easily throughout August. The catchers were getting old and with Wilson slumping and Youngs illness the once promising OF was in question. Very few young players got tryouts.

                        1925: 86-66, 2nd place:
                        C - Frank Snyder slumped at the plate.
                        1B - Bill Terry had a promising first season as a regular.
                        2B - High Pockets Kelly also played 25 games at first and 17 in the OF with his usual batting ability. Only regular to miss less than 20 games. MVP-3
                        SS - Travis Jackson was held back by knee problems.
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom was average in 104 games at age 19.
                        LF - Irish Meusel
                        CF - Billy Southworth improved his batting with just a 96 OPS+ however he wasn't getting along with McGraw.
                        RF - Ross Youngs hit just .264 due to severe kidney problems.

                        IF - Frankie Frisch played 40+ games at second, third and short. Led in runs, steals, BA and OBP.
                        OF - Hack Wilson slumped badly to .239 and was shipped to Toledo on 8/8.
                        C - Hank Gowdy continued to rake at age 35.
                        C - Grover Hartley actually played as much as Gowdy and hit better than expected at age 36.
                        3B - Heinie Groh hit .231 in 65 AB.
                        OF - Frank Walker had a long career in the Virginia and Sally League. Sent to Indy for Fitzsimmons.
                        IF - Doc Farrell didn't hit in 27 games.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Jack Scott was back and pitched very well but was 14-15.
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes was 15-11
                        LHP - Art Nehf dwas less effective and 11-9.
                        LHP - Jack Bentley had a 5.04 ERA and a .846 OPS. Traded on 12/30 for Ring. Came back on waivers at the end of '26 and AAA in '27 but was done.
                        RHP - Kent Greenfield joined the rotation after a 3 inning start last year. 105 ERA+
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan was bad in eleven starts.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons had a much needed 154 ERA+ in 8 starts. Knuckleballer found by Kinsella pitched the day he showed up. Stayed with the Giants as a reliable starter through 1937.
                        RRP - Wayland Dean started 14 games, relieved 19 and stank at both.
                        RRP - Walt Huntzinger was solid in 25 relief appearances.
                        RRP - Jack Wisner was good in 40 innings and 25 games.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        PH - Earl Webb (27) was acquired for Hack Wilson but was farmed out and resurfaced to set the doubles record in '31.
                        C - Mickey Devine (33) played 21 games after twelve in N.L. total since 1916. Played five more in AAA.
                        C - Hugh McMullen (23)
                        LF - Al Moore (22) came over from St. John's.
                        LF - Otis Carter (22) had an 18 year minor league career mostly in the south.
                        OF/PR - Pip Koehler (23) had an 18 year minor league career.
                        LRP - Chick Davies (33)
                        RRP - Harry Baldwin (25)

                        Hack Wilson was lost shortly after the season due to a clerical error by the club secretary that left him unprotected for the Cubs to scoop up from the minors.
                        This was a tumultuous offseason and season. Something that would become a theme. Hughie Jennings had a nervous breakdown and entered an asylum. Bresnahan replaced him as top assistant. The whole outfield became a weakness. Two of his biggest pitching busts in Bentley and Dean were shipped out to the Phillies for Jimmy Ring. He really toyed with the pitching staff as his top 4 starters relieved 11, 11, 11 and 16 games. They were somehow just five back on August 10th but began to falter. With everyone under pressure McGraw criticized Kelly and Meusel publicly for poor attitudes. Then said Frisch wasn't leading and that he was never satisfied with him as a captain.

                        1926: 74-77, 5th place:
                        C - Paul Florence an excellent minor leaguer with Indy and later Rochester. Hit .229 in his only major league season. Retired as an Astros scout in 1983.
                        1B - High Pockets Kelly saw his power dip a bit but still led in HR and RBI.
                        2B - Frankie Frisch left the club late after McGraw berated him for missing a sign. This was his last year with the Giants.
                        SS - Travis Jackson led NY in BA, SLG, OPS+ in 111 games missing time with knee problems again.
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom
                        LF - Irish Meusel became an average hitter. Released 9/17 and had one more year with Brooklyn.
                        CF - Ty Tyson a 34 year old slick fielding rookie with a 90 OPS+ until he broke his arm.
                        RF - Ross Youngs had a 106 OPS+ in 95 games but ended up hospitalized in August.

                        OF - Heinie Mueller hit badly in regular time after coming over for Southworth.
                        1B - Bill Terry held out and then suffered from nagging injuries.
                        SS - Doc Farrell hit league average.
                        C - Frank Snyder faded and was released in August after he was in at least 3 fights and broke both hands. Had one more year in StL.
                        C - Hugh McMullen hit .187
                        OF - Billy Southworth began the year very hot before he was traded to Boston.
                        OF - Al Moore never saw the bigs again.
                        LF/PH - Mel Ott turned 17 in spring training. Hit .383 in junk time while being mentored by McGraw.
                        OF/PH - Jimmy Johnston a twelve year N.L. vet claimed in June that didn't hit in his swan song.
                        3B - Heinie Groh played 12 games before a may release.
                        IF - Andy Cohen spent most of his career with Minneapolis in the A.A. and spent next year in the minors with Buffalo.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes led in ERA but was 8-13.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons was 0.01 from Barnes in ERA and 14-10.
                        LHP - Art Nehf bought by the Reds May 11th, didn't pitch well again until '28 and was done the next year at 36.
                        RHP - Kent Greenfield was average but a workhorse and was developing a distaste for McGraw.
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan was average as Greenfield.
                        RHP - Jimmy Ring pitched pretty bad and was thrown into offseason trade.
                        RHP - Jack Scott started 22, relieved 28 and wasn't good.
                        RHP - Jack Wisner became a player to be named later in the Fitzimmons deal on May 17th.
                        RCL - Chick Davies led the league in GF and saves but was pretty average overall.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        C - Grover Hartley (37) spent most of the year in Indianapolis.
                        C - Jack Cummings (22)
                        OF - Otis Carter (23)
                        2B - Fresco Thompson (24) started for the Phil's from 1927-30
                        2B - Scottie Slayback (24)
                        LF - Mike Smith (21)
                        OF - Joe Connell (24)
                        IF - Pete Cote (23) out of Holy Cross.
                        C - Jim Boyle (22)
                        C - Jim Hamby (28)
                        RRP - Tim McNamara (27) came over for Rosy Ryan but was finished.
                        RRP - Joe Poetz (26)
                        LRP - Jack Bentley (31)
                        RRP - Al Smith (22)
                        RRP - Ned Porter (20)
                        Rogers Hornsby was finally a Giants after being traded for Ring and Frisch - who he replaced as captain. McGraw would continue to attack Frisch in the press. Jackson and especially Lindstrom quickly disliked Hornsby. Kelly was traded to the Reds for Edd Roush and played six more years as a good player for his ages. Burleigh Grimes was acquired from Brooklyn and George Harper from Philadelphia in a three team trade that saw the Giants give up Jack Scott and Fresco Thompson. The outfield was quickly fixed. They tried out about ten young pitchers. This was the final year they tried out a lot of young players. Hornsby went 22-10 as manager due to McGraw's health problems. Rumors swirled he would retire in favor of the Rajah.

                        1927: 92-62, 3rd place:
                        C - Zack Taylor came over from Boston on 6/12 with staff ace Larry Benton and Herb Thomas for Farrell, Greenfield and McQuillan. Was released in February and played 8 more years as a backup.
                        1B - Bill Terry
                        2B - Rogers Hornsby played great, managed well, gambled poorly and pissed just about everyone off including the owner. He did seem to have McGraw and the fans on his side. MVP-3
                        SS - Travis Jackson missed six weeks with an appendectomy. MVP-5
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom
                        LF - Heinie Mueller bounced back with the stick and was sold to old buddy Stengel in Toledo.
                        CF - Edd Roush was not happy to be with McGraw but handled himself professionally as always.
                        RF - George Harper hit well in 5 N.L. seasons but had a career year this season at 35.

                        3B/OF - Andy Reese
                        OF/PH - Mel Ott hit .282 in 82 games.
                        SS - Doc Farrell had a whopping 161 OPS+ filling in for Jackson before trade.
                        LF - Ty Tyson was ineffective and out of baseball in 2 years.
                        C - Al DeVormer an athletic 35 year old itinerant A.L. vet sold to Toledo in December.
                        C - Jack Cummings raked to the tune of .363 in 80 AB at age 23.
                        C - Mickey O'Neil a Brave of 7 years bought from the Senators in May for a little hit swan song.
                        OF - Les Mann claimed on waivers from Boston 7/18 and raked in 67 AB.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Burleigh Grimes led the team in everything and was traded to Pittsburgh for Vic Aldridge in the offseason in a perplexing move.
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes was 14-11
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons was 17-10 with 11 relief outings too.
                        RHP - Larry Benton went 13-5 in 23 starts.
                        RHP - Hugh McQuillan pitched poorly before being dealt.
                        RHP - Bullet Joe Bush a veteran of 5 WS with Philly, Boston and NY in the A.L. got two starts after signing 6/28 but was washed up at 34.
                        LLR - Dutch Henry was 11-6 in 15 starts and 30 relief appearances.
                        LHS - Don Songer got four cups with Pittsburgh before coming on waivers in May and posting a 137 ERA+ in 21 relief outings. He would be out of baseball by 1931 and never pitch in the majors again.
                        RRP - Kent Greenfield had a 9.45 ERA when traded.
                        RRP - Bill Clarkson a 28 year old rookie that never stuck in the majors.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        UT - Herb Thomas (25) was farmed out to Buffalo and played 12 years in the minors never getting called up again.
                        OF - Tex Jeanes (26) in his 5th and final late call up. Spent 17 years in southern and Texas minor leagues.
                        PH - Buck Jordan (20) would become a regular for the Braves in a ten year career.
                        LF - Joe Klinger (24)
                        C - Red Smith (23) a Notre Dame grad. Played and coached in pro football and baseball.
                        C - Jim Hamby (29)
                        RHP - Ben Cantwell (25)
                        RRP - Fay Thomas (23) a USC grad played mostly out west spending 8 years with Los Angeles.
                        LRP - Jim Faulker (27)
                        LRP - Jack Bentley (32)
                        RRP - Norman Plitt (34)
                        RRP - Virgil Cheeves (26) blew his elbow out in 1923 and was never the same.
                        RRP - Hank Boney (23)
                        LRP - Bill Walker (23)
                        LRP - Art Johnson (30)
                        RRP - Ned Porter (21)
                        RRP - Mul Holland (24)

                        Ross Youngs, one of McGraw's favorites, died in October just 30 years of age. Hornsby, still the best player in the N.L. was quickly traded to the perpetually moribund and willing to deal Boston Braves for youngsters Shanty Hogan and Jimmy Welsh after he criticized ownership after the year. His problems with ownership began when he yelled at a member of management and personal friend of Stoneham during a late season road trip.
                        Hughie Jennings passed in February. Hans Lobert came on to coach for a year. Hornsby's absence at the plate loomed quite large. A controversial late season no call by Bill Klem on Gabby Hartnett for interference on Reese largely cost the Giants the pennant.

                        1928: 93-61, 2nd place:
                        C - Shanty Hogan was a stud in 131 games with a .333 BA, led the team in OBP and hit ten bombs. A large man, McGraw would hound him about his diet always to no avail. After two years of stop gap players he was the most durable and hard hitting catcher since Meyers.
                        1B - Bill Terry
                        2B - Andy Cohen started hot and faded late to be replaced by Reese.
                        SS - Travis Jackson hit average but played a full season in his new role as captain.
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom had a great campaign. Led league in hits and CS. MVP-2
                        LF - Lefty O'Doul a failed pitcher, PCL veteran and soon to be legend had a 117 OPS+ in his first season as a major league hitter. He was let go in the winter dubbed too old, slow and not serious enough.
                        CF - Jimmy Welsh was credited for his excellent all around play in his only full season with NY.
                        RF - Mel Ott led the team in OPS+ as a 19 year old regular since the May trade moved Harper.

                        UT - Andy Reese was at his most versatile and dangerous with the stick.
                        OF - Les Mann didn't hit well.
                        CF - Edd Roush hit .252 in 46 games and was lost with a hernia after fighting with Bresnahan while McGraw was away.
                        C - Bob O'Farrell the 1926 N.L. MVP came over for Harper after not hitting and hit worse here. Never liked playing for McGraw.
                        OF - George Harper was traded to St. Louis in May after losing his RF spot.
                        C - Jack Cummings had a 165 OPS+ in 33 PA.
                        PH - Russ Wrightstone a 1B vet of 9 years all with the Phillies hit just .160 after being claimed 6/8 in his last big league season.

                        Pitching staff:
                        RHP - Larry Benton had a career year with 310 IP, paced the N.L. in W, W%, CG and finished MVP-4.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons went 20-9
                        RHP - Joe Genewich acquired at the deadline for Barnes, Cantwell, Clarkson and Spohrer.
                        LHP - Carl Hubbell was as good as Benton in half the time as a 25 year old rookie purchased from Beaumont for $25,000 in April by Kinsella.
                        RHP - Vic Aldridge held out until May then didn't pitch well in last MLB season.
                        RHP - Virgil Barnes threw 55 innings in 9 starts before Genewich trade in June.
                        RLR - Jack Scott was back after leading baseball in losses and games pitched to go 4-1 in 50 innings.
                        RRP - Ben Cantwell (26) would win and lose 20 games in a year over 8 years with Braves.
                        LLR - Dutch Henry was average starting as much as he relieved.
                        LRP - Bill Walker was decent in 76 innings as a rookie.
                        LCL - Jim Faulkner had a 110 ERA+ in 117 innings through 30 relief outings after a cup last year. Spent surrounding years in I.L.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        OF - Art Jahn (32)
                        C - Al Spohrer (25) became the Braves catcher until her retired at 32.
                        C - Pat Veltman (22)
                        C - Bill Haeffner (33)
                        CF - Joe Price (31)
                        PH - Chick Fullis (27)
                        RHP - Ray Foley (22)
                        RHP - Leo Mangum (32) a 17 year minor league journeyman.
                        RRP - Tiny Chaplin (22)
                        LRP - Garland Buckeye (30)
                        RRP - Chet Nichols (30)
                        Bresnahan stayed in Toledo where he owned part of the club. Ray Schalk became the new right hand man. McGraw spent long stretches of time scouting the Ohio Valley and Midwest.

                        1929: 84-67, 3rd place:
                        C - Shanty Hogan hit ok while splitting nearly half the time with O'Farrell.
                        1B - Bill Terry hit .372 and managed to lead in hits, doubles and average with Ott raking. MVP-3
                        2B - Andy Cohen was sold to Newark after the year.
                        SS - Travis Jackson set a record for HR by a SS with 21.
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom
                        LF - Freddie Leach didn't play much until June and wasn't quite league average at the plate.
                        CF - Edd Roush hit .324 his penultimate season before sitting out '30 over money and returning to the Reds.
                        RF - Mel Ott became a full fledged star with career highs at 42 HR and 151 RBI.

                        OF - Chick Fullis got 311 PA around 2 cups of coffee.
                        2B - Andy Reese didn't hit at all.
                        C - Bob O'Farrell remembered how to hit.
                        IF - Doc Farrell came over for Welsh in June.
                        LF - Jimmy Welsh lost his LF position and was sent back to Boston.
                        1B/PH - Pat Crawford raked after coming over from Toledo.
                        P/OF/PR - Tony Kaufman former pitcher with burnt out arm. Everyone thought it would come around but never did.
                        C - Ray Schalk had his last 10 innings catching.

                        Pitching staff:
                        LHP - Carl Hubbell was beginning his HoF run.
                        RHP - Larry Benton dipped to 12-17 on a 110 ERA+.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons went 15-11
                        LHP - Bill Walker went 14-7
                        LRP - Dutch Henry posted a 120 ERA+ in 100 IP.
                        RRP - Jack Scott was the best reliever in 90 IP.
                        RLR - Joe Genewich didn't pitch good as a swingman.
                        RRP - Ralph Judd had a miracle year with a 173 OPS+ in 50 relief innings in 18/21 career games. He was quickly flipped for a proven vet in '30.
                        RCL - Carl Mays the legendary scalawag was good for age 37 in 123 innings in last MLB campaign.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        2B - Doc Marshall (23) hit .400 in 15 AB.
                        C - Pat Veltman (23)
                        C - Jack Cummings (25)
                        1B - Buck Jordan (22)
                        LF - Sam Leslie (23)
                        RRP - Ray Lucas (20)
                        RRP - Roy Parmelee (22) had speed but lacked control.
                        RRP - Jim Tennant (22)
                        Schalk was fired as McGraw didn't like how he handled the club during his scouting expeditions. Dave Bancroft replaced him. Irish Meusel became a coach for the year. The pitching staff came into their own. The .319 team average was baseball's highest since McGraw's 1897 Orioles. This was the 6th and final year of the HoF Terry-Jackson-Lindstrom infield.

                        1930: 87-67, 3rd place:
                        C - Shanty Hogan put up a 115 OPS+ and took a little more work load.
                        1B - Bill Terry hit .401 and paced the N.L in hits.
                        2B - Hughie Critz the Reds six year veteran fielding ace never did hit much but had his worst year ever after arriving in May for Benton.
                        SS - Travis Jackson hit a career high .339 in 116 games.
                        3B - Freddie Lindstrom had the best year of his career.
                        LF - Freddie Leach got close to his old hitting form back with the Phillies.
                        CF - Wally Roettger didn't hit.
                        RF - Mel Ott

                        C - Bob O'Farrell still hitting at age 33.
                        CF - Ethan Allen showed some athleticism.
                        MIF - Doc Marshall began at second base but didn't hit.
                        UT - Andy Reese didn't hit. Spent 9 of the next 12 years with Memphis.
                        2B - Pat Crawford was ok before being traded to the Reds for Ethan Allen and Pete Donahue in late May.
                        SS - Dave Bancroft played 8 games; all at shortstop, started 4 and played 2 fully in last action of career.

                        Pitching staff:
                        LHP - Carl Hubbell
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons
                        LHP - Bill Walker kept up well with Hubbell.
                        LHP - Clarence Mitchell acquired 5/15 and at age 39 and went 10-3 in 129 innings with a 119 ERA+ after a 3 inning start with Cardinals.
                        RHP - Pete Donahue the former 3x 20 game winner continued to slide.
                        RHP - Larry Benton got flipped with a 7.00+ ERA.
                        LRP - Hub Pruett threw 135 innings in 37 appearances.
                        RRP - Tiny Chaplin threw 73 innings at age 24 starting some and relieving.
                        RLR - Joe Genewich stank
                        RCL - Joe Heving led the league with 22 GF while relieving 39x as a rookie.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        OF - Harry Rosenberg (22)
                        OF - Chick Fullis (29)
                        CF - Jo-Jo Moore (21)
                        C - Francis Healy (19)
                        PH - Sam Leslie (24)
                        RRP - Roy Parmelee (23)
                        RRP - Ray Lucas (21)
                        RRP - Bill Morrell (37)
                        RRP - Ralph Judd (28) was traded to Cardinals for Mitchell after 7 innings.
                        George J. Burns and Chief Bender came on as assistants. He remedied the weak outfield by moving Lindstrom out there after he bought Vergez from San Francisco for $60,000. The backup outfielders came through clutch.

                        1931: 87-65, 2nd place:
                        C - Shanty Hogan was still hitting and ended the year suspended for drunkenness.
                        1B - Bill Terry held out as he always at least threatened to. Led league in triples and runs scored to finish MVP-3.
                        2B - Hughie Critz missed time with a hurt shoulder playing just 66 games.
                        SS - Travis Jackson was MVP-7
                        3B - John Vergez had a good rookie year.
                        LF - Freddie Leach kept the same pace. Sold to Boston after the season for his final year.
                        CF - Mel Ott played half the year in RF after Lindstrom got hurt.
                        RF - Freddie Lindstrom broke his ankle in July.

                        CF - Chick Fullis batted .328, 118 OPS+ in 332 PA.
                        OF/PH - Ethan Allen hit .329, 120 OPS+ in 321 PA.
                        C - Bob O'Farrell caught less and had a light bat.
                        MIF - Doc Marshall hit .201
                        2B - Bill Hunnefield claimed on 6/30 for his third team in his last season.
                        1B/PH - Sam Leslie got a chance after a couple AB the last two years. 129 OPS+ in 54 PA and first time in the field.

                        Pitching staff:
                        LHP - Carl Hubbell didn't get great run support.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons
                        LHP - Bill Walker led the league in ERA and shutouts.
                        LHP - Clarence Mitchell went 13-11 in final full year.
                        LHP - Jim Mooney was 7-1 and dominant in his 8 starts.
                        RHP - Pete Donahue pitched 4 games but was finished.
                        RRP - Joe Heving was bad. He'd be an excellent reliever in the A.L. by the end of the decade and pitch until age 44.
                        RRP - Jack Berly threw 111 innings.
                        RRP - Tiny Chaplin pitched really well in limited time.
                        RLR - Bill Morrell a 38 year old swingman that didn't play in the minors until 31.
                        RLR - Roy Parmelee got his first extended time on the mound with five starts.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        3B - Gil English (21)
                        LF - Jo-Jo Moore (22)
                        C - Francis Healy (20)
                        RRP - Hal Schumacher (20) soon become a mid-rotation stalwart until WWII.
                        RRP - Emil Planeta (22)
                        RRP - Ray Lucas (22)
                        McGraw never did find anyone to replace Frisch or Hornsby. His health deteriorated to the point where he decided to retire on June 3rd and name Terry his successor. This was a surprise since the two hadn't spoken since contract negotiations before spring training. Bancroft resigned.

                        1932: 72-82, 6th place:
                        C - Shanty Hogan caught a career high 140 games with an 89 OPS+ and was sold to the Braves for $25,000 in December.
                        1B - Bill Terry hit .350 and was 55-59 as manager.
                        2B - Hughie Critz rebounded offensively.
                        SS - Travis Jackson played just 52 games.
                        3B - John Vergez had a sophomore slump.
                        LF - Jo-Jo Moore played 83 games with a 94 OPS+.
                        CF - Freddie Lindstrom saw his hitting dip in his last year in the big apple.
                        RF - Mel Ott broke took his game to another level topping the N.L. in HR, BB, OBP, OPS+.

                        OF/PH - Chick Fullis was shipped out in the offseason Lindstrom trade.
                        IF - Gil English never stuck in the majors.
                        SS - Doc Marshall didn’t hit filling in for Jackson.
                        LF - Len Koenecke didn’t live up to expectations after trading Rosenberg, Heving and Berly with $75,000 to Indianapolis.
                        OF/PH - Ethan Allen hit .175 in final year with Giants.
                        IF - Eddie Moore hit well for being 33.
                        C - Bob O’Farrell
                        PH - Sam Leslie had a 93 OPS+ in 79 PA.

                        Pitching staff:
                        LHP - Carl Hubbell led team in ERA by nearly a full run. Led N.L. in WHIP and K/BB ratio.
                        RHP - Freddie Fitzsimmons slipped at age 30 but came back around.
                        LHP - Bill Walker was 8-12
                        LHP - Jim Mooney was 6-10
                        RHP - Waite Hoyt came on waivers in June. Hasn’t been the same since 1928. Was 5-7 with 109 ERA+ And actually had six good years left as a swing man 4+ with Pittsburgh.
                        LHP - Clarence Mitchell was 41, threw 40 innings and retired.
                        RHP - Hal Schumacher was coming into his own splitting time between the pen and rotation equally.
                        RRP - Hi Bell spent 5 of the last 8 years up and down with the Cardinals. Average in ten starts and 24 relief outings.
                        RRP - Sam Gibson was a career starter mostly in the minors that didn’t take well to the bullpen.
                        RCL - Adolpho Luque was solid at 41 and played three more years here.

                        Cups of coffee (age):
                        C - Francis Healy (21)
                        C - Pat Veltman (26)
                        SS - Art McLarney (23)
                        PH - Tip Tobin (25)
                        RRP - Roy Parmelee (25)
                        Last edited by bluesky5; 07-13-2021, 02:15 PM.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


                        • #72
                          I just spent some time running the numbers for McGraw as Manager. I looked at his 31 seasons as full time manager, 1899-1931.

                          During those years, his teams led in:
                          SB: 12 times
                          BA: 13 times
                          OBP: 17 times
                          SLG: 12 times
                          ERA: 8 times

                          Top 2 finishes:
                          SB: 18 times
                          BA: 22 times
                          OBP: 20 times
                          SLG: 19 times
                          ERA: 11 times

                          For one, it appears that McGraw favored hitting and speed over pitching.



                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                            The best possible actor to play John J. McGraw would have been the young James Cagney. Couldn't get a better stereo-type.

                            I wish I could find that list that McGraw made of the black players he wished he could sign up. That would be interesting. Starting with John Lloyd.

                            McGraw was the biggest supporter of bringing black players into baseball. He took his team to Havana, Cuba for many years to play their best players.
                            George Dzundza in the early 90s Law & Order days.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                              George Dzundza in the early 90s Law & Order days.
                              A pretty close resemblance.


                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis


                              • #75
                                Maybe Charles Durning when he was a bit younger.
                                3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47


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