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  • bluesky5
    replied
    McGraw had cut ties with all the vestiges of the early world series except for the incomparable Mathewson and soon to be sold Devlin. He built a new powerhouse that all came together this year. but they would run into the $100,000 Infield and particularly Home Run Baker after finishing 7.5 up on the Cubs.

    1911 - 99-54, pennant winners:
    C - Chief Meyers caught 117 games and hit .285.
    1B - Fred Merkle led in RBI and was MVP-7.
    2B - Larry Doyle finished 3rd for MVP. Team leading 102 runs, 163 hits, 25 doubles, 25 triples, 13 HR and BA/OBP/SLG/OPS+, TB, second on sacrifices.
    SS - Art Fletcher finally takes over for good.
    3B - Art Devlin was sold to Boston just before the 1912 season.
    LF - Josh Davore hit leadoff and led the team in steals, second in runs and hits.
    CF - Fred Snodgrass was awesome all-around.
    RF - Red Murray had been surpassed in talent but his numbers stayed the same.

    OF - Beals Becker didn't hit real well. Ran well and played decent OF.
    3B - Buck Herzog was acquired for Hank Gowdy and Birdwell.
    SS - Al Birdwell was traded to Boston in July.
    C - Art Wilson hit really well again.
    OF - Turkey Mike Donlin showed up for 12 games and of course he raked before getting sold to the Braves in August for being a dick.
    C - Grover Hartley would see two 3 year stints with the club getting 35+ PA once.
    OF - George J. Burns got 6 PA and would become the leadoff man and one of the best and most consistent Giants of the decade.

    P - Christy Mathewson was MVP-2.
    P - Rube Marquard stepped up and went 24-7 and led the N.L. in K's after being extensively reinvented by McGraw and Wilbert Robinson. MVP-7
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Louis Drucke went 4-4 in his last ten starts ever.
    RP - Doc Crandall was made one of the first near true relievers by McGraw before jumping to the F.L. and barely seeing the majors after.
    RP - Bugs Raymond started in 9 relieved in 8 as a junk time pitcher in his last major league season.
    Victory Faust pitched this season.

    1912 - 103-48, pennant winners:
    C - Chief Meyers led the team with .358/.441/.477/147 OPS+ and finished MVP-3.
    1B - Fred Merkle
    2B - Larry Doyle led the team in TB, RBI, doubles, hits, and runs and was second to Meyers in all rate stats. Won the MVP.
    SS - Art Fletcher
    3B - Buck Herzog
    LF - Josh Davore saw less time than last year.
    CF - Fred Snodgrass dropped off slightly at the plate. Famously misjudged a ball in the World Series loss to Boston.
    RF - Red Murray had been surpassed in talent but his numbers stayed the same.

    OF - Beals Becker saw a good bit of time and didn't embarrass himself.
    C - Art Wilson hit pretty good.
    IF - Tillie Walker came back and hit .288 in 204 PA's.
    1B/OF - Moose McCormick came back with a 144 OPS+ in 45 PA's.
    IF - Heinie Groh would soon find fame in Cincinnati with his bottle bat and later return to the Giants.
    C - Grover Hartley
    OF - George J. Burns saw action in 29 games.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Rube Marquard had his famous winning streak this season. MVP-8
    P - Jeff Tesreau was made a success by Robinson instantly leading the N.L. in ERA and would be a solid #2 quality guy for the next six years.
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    RP - Doc Crandall

    In May of this season McGraw traded Devore, Ames and Groh for Art Fromme of the Reds. Devore was out of the majors after '14 and played around the midwest monors until age 36. Ames had 6 more seasons as a barely average pitcher. Groh was really good for quite a while.

    1913 - 101-51, pennant winners:
    C - Chief Meyers led the team with .312/.387/.410/126 OPS+ and finished MVP-5.
    1B - Fred Merkle's batting dropped to .261.
    2B - Larry Doyle had a real good year.
    SS - Art Fletcher rebounded with the stick.
    3B - Buck Herzog hit well in 96 games.
    LF - George J. Burns won the leadoff spot and led in doubles, steals, hits and runs.
    CF - Fred Snodgrass rebounded for a really good year.
    RF - Red Murray's numbers are slipping.

    3B/UT - Tillie Shafer played 81 games at third base in his only full season and had a 117 OPS+. He retired because he didn't want to play anymore. McGraw refused to release his rights to the minors through 1926 and straight offered him the 3B job every offseason through the rest of the teens.
    C - Art Wilson didn't hit good.
    OF - Moose McCormick hit ok in 86 PA's.
    C - Larry McLean was acquired for Crandall after being a solid regular for the Reds for 6-7 years. Played every game of the WS and hit 6-12 (.500).
    IF - Eddie Grant was bought in June for more infield depth.
    C - Grover Hartley
    OF - Jim Thorpe was the best athlete on the planet at the time and got in 19 games.
    OF - Claude Cooper saw little time but raked and threw away his career jumping to the F.L.
    SS - Milt Stock was traded for in September and got in 7 games. Would have a good career with the Cards and Phil's.

    P - Christy Mathewson was MVP-4.
    P - Rube Marquard
    P - Jeff Tesreau
    P - Al Demaree was bought last season and went 13-4 in 25 starts.
    P - Hooks Wiltse was limited to 50 innings.
    P - Art Fromme got 12 starts, 15 relief appearances and wasn't too good.
    RP - Doc Crandall was traded to the Cards for McLean and then bought back by NY 16 days later.

    The Giants were first most of the summer but blew the season by finishing 10.5 behind the miracle Braves who were in last place on Independence Day. The pitching staff was in serious trouble.

    1914 - 84-70, 2nd place:
    C - Chief Meyers is still one of the better hitters on the club.
    1B - Fred Merkle's a bit better.
    2B - Larry Doyle
    SS - Art Fletcher
    3B - Milt Stock was 20 and serviceable with the bat.
    LF - George J. Burns led the team in runs (N.L.), hits, doubles, steals (N.L.), TB, BA/OBP/SLG/OPS+ and was MVP-4.
    CF - Bob Bescher had a darn good year and was traded to the Cardinals for Pol Perritt in March.
    RF - Fred Snodgrass was an average hitter and played CF, RF and 14 games at first.

    IF - Eddie Grant was bought from the Reds in June for more infield depth.
    OF - Dave Robertson had a 99 OPS+ after a cup of coffee in '12.
    OF - Red Murray hit just .223 in 156 PA's.
    C - Larry McClean caught 74 games.
    PH - Turkey Mike Donlin never saw the field and didn't rake in 35 PA in his last season in the bigs.
    OF - Jim Thorpe didn't hit in 31 AB's.
    PR - Sandy Piez hit .375 in 8 AB and pinch ran 33x in his only major league season.

    P - Christy Mathewson was 24-14 but starting to fade.
    P - Rube Marquard went 12-22.
    P - Jeff Tesreau was easily their best pitcher.
    P - Al Demaree went 10-17 and would be traded in the offseason.
    RP - Art Fromme wasn't nearly as good as Crandall who was in the F.L. now.
    RP - Hooks Wiltse was limited to 38 innings and no starts.

    It all fell apart in '15. McGraw brought in 6 pitchers 25 and under. The new pitchers didn't produce. Mathewson was a shadow of himself. His catchers were aging and the youngsters there were no good. Almost no one hit and worst of all they were slow on the bases now. This downturn wouldn't last long.

    1915 - 69-83, last place:
    C - Chief Meyers was 34 and not hitting.
    1B - Fred Merkle had a really good rebound year and is easily the second best hitter.
    2B - Larry Doyle raked and led the team in everything but triples and steals and the N.L. in hits, doubles and average.
    SS - Art Fletcher didn't hit.
    3B - Hans Lobert came in for Stock, Demaree and Bert Adams in the winter from the Phillies. Didn't hit well.
    LF - George J. Burns was damn solid but not 1914 good.
    CF - Fred Snodgrass was released in August with a .215 BA and was signed by the Braves where he played one more year at 28.
    RF - Dave Robertson had a 117 OPS+ as a regular.

    IF - Eddie Grant hit really bad and never played again.
    OF - Red Murray hit just .220 in 134 PA's in his last season.
    IF - Fred Brainard saw 2 games in each season around this 274 PA, .201 BA effort and never saw the bigs again.
    C - Red Dooin longtime Phil's stalwart was claimed off waivers from CIN in July and didn't hit in his last real season. The other back up catchers - Harry Smith was 25 and jumped to the Feds mid-season and Lew Wendell was just 23 and not hitting, never stuck in the bigs.
    OF - Jim Thorpe wasn't panning out with his best yet 80 OPS+ in 54 PA's.
    CF - Marry Becker was bought from Lewiston in the NewE.L. in August for his only 59 PA in the majors.
    C - Larry McClean went 5-33 in his last season.
    OF - Charlie Babington got a shot to play in CF at 20 and hit .242 in his only season in the bigs.
    1B - High Pockets Kelly got his first 41 PA at age 19.

    P - Christy Mathewson went 8-14 in just 24 starts.
    P - Jeff Tesreau was easily their best pitcher.
    P - Rube Marquard went 9-8 in just 21 starts.
    P - Pol Perritt wasn't quite average.
    P - Sailor Stroud wasn't too good in only full season besides 1910 with the Tigers.
    P - Rube Benton was bought from CIN in August and would have 3 real solid years here.
    P - Emilio Palmero an early Cuban went 0-2 at 20 in two starts.
    RP - Rube Schauer was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
    RP - Hank Ritter was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
    RP - Ferdie Schupp was real bad trying to fill the relief spot.
    RP - Art Fromme threw 12 innings and was gone.

    McGraw tried to fill gaps with F.L. players - Rariden, Kauff, Roush, McKechnie, Anderson who were all good moves. Christy Mathewson was traded to the Reds with young Edd Roush and Bill McKechnie so Mathewson could manage them. Best trade in Reds history as Roush and McKechnie were huge for the Reds up until WWII. The pitching was still not up to par. They still finished just 7 back of Brooklyn.

    1916 - 86-66, 4th place:
    C - Bill Rariden was 29 and bought from Newark (F.L.) in December and was serviceable the next 3 years.
    1B - Fred Merkle was traded to Brooklyn in late August for Lew McCarty.
    2B - Larry Doyle hit pretty good and got flipped for Zimmerman in August.
    SS - Art Fletcher raked again.
    3B - Bill McKechnie came in with Rariden and was shipped out in the big August trade to the Reds.
    LF - George J. Burns improved and led the N.L. in runs.
    CF - Benny Kauff the 'Ty Cobb of the F.L. wasn't that good but led them in triples, RBI, OBP, OPS+ filling a gaping hole from last year.
    RF - Dave Robertson led the league in HR with 12 and the team in hits, BA, SLG and TB.

    IF - Buck Herzog was back again from the big Reds trade as the top infield reserve.
    3B - Heinie Zimmerman the Cubs stalwart hit ok as a regular.
    1B - Walter Holke took over first base after Merkle and hit .351 in 111 AB to earn the job next year.
    3B - Hans Lobert didn't hit in 84 PA.
    C - Lew McCarty had a .397 average in 68 AB's.
    C - Brad Kocher got in 34 games at catcher and was terrible.
    IF - Mickey Doolin the Phil's SS for a decade was signed in June and got 18 games
    CF - Edd Roush was bought from Newark (F.L.) and promptly traded to win 2 of the next 3 N.L. batting titles.
    C - Red Dooin got 17 PA and was done.
    1B - High Pockets Kelly had 84 PA and didn't hit.

    P - Christy Mathewson threw 65 innings before being traded. He would pitch one more game, a CG, W over Mordecai Brown.
    P - Jeff Tesreau was 18-14.
    P - Rube Benton was 16-8.
    P - Pol Perritt was 18-11.
    P - Slim Sallee bought from the Cards in July and improved his ERA by 2.10 and went 9-4.
    P - Fred Anderson was bought from Buffalo (F.L.) and pitched real bad.
    P - Hank Ritter was was poor in limited action.
    P - Emilio Palmero got his last chance and went 0-3.
    RP - Ferdie Schupp was unhittable with a 0.90 ERA in 140 IP.
    RP - Rube Schauer was poor in limited action.

    McGraw was trying to find a youngster to replace Doyle to no avail. The pitching staff solidified and the outfield raked while Zimmerman picked up for Doyle's loss. Solid defensively all-around as usual. McGraw pieced together this pennant winner real quick.

    1917 - 98-56, pennant winner:
    C - Bill Rariden hit real good in 101 games.
    1B - Walter Holke didn't live up to expectations but was average.
    2B - Buck Herzog was never going to be Doyle but he did a good job.
    SS - Art Fletcher
    3B - Heinie Zimmerman was really good. Old pro led the team in RBI.
    LF - George J. Burns led the N.L. in runs and walks. Led the team in runs, hits, doubles, steals, OBP/SLG/OPS+ and TB.
    CF - Benny Kauff was among the team leaders in about everything.
    RF - Dave Robertson led the league in HR with 12 but slumped otherwise.

    C - Lew McCarty hit ok.
    3B - Hans Lobert didn't hit in 59 PA and retired.
    LF - Joe Wilhoit came in off waivers in August and raked at .340 in 50 AB's.
    MIF - Jimmy Smith claimed from PIT in the winter was a solid defender in 36 games.
    C - George Gibson was the Bucs catcher for 12 years before he came over on waivers on 8/15 for 91 PA's.
    OF - Jim Thorpe was back from Milwaukee and quickly sold to the Reds on 4/23 and returned in August.
    2B - Pete Kilduff was traded for Demaree in August after 31 lackluster games for the youngster.
    OF - Red Murray was brought back to hit .045 in a 22 PA swan song.
    OF - Ross Youngs hit .346 in his first 7 games at 20.
    1B - High Pockets Kelly had just 7 AB and no hits.
    1B - Jose Rodriguez a 23 year old Cuban who didn't hit in 20 AB's.

    P - Ferdie Schupp became a 20 win ace.
    P - Slim Sallee was 18-7
    P - Rube Benton was 15-9.
    P - Pol Perritt was almost better than Schupp.
    P - Jeff Tesreau was barely ok.
    P - Al Demaree was meh upon his return.
    RP - Fred Anderson led the league with a 1.44 ERA in 160 innings.

    1918 was shortened due to our involvement in WWI. Traded for Buck Herzog, again, to Boston for Larry Doyle and soon to be 2x 20 game winner Jesse Barnes. The pitching staff still lacked a consistent dominant ace. Holke and Schupp weren't panning out and the rest of the infield was aging.

    1918 - 71-53, 2nd place:
    C - Lew McCarty hit ok.
    1B - Walter Holke was showing the holes in his game now.
    2B - Larry Doyle was ill and played just 75 games in his return.
    SS - Art Fletcher was ok at bat.
    3B - Heinie Zimmerman was solid if not spectacular.
    LF - George J. Burns
    CF - Benny Kauff was limited to 67 games but still almost led in doubles and led in rates except OBP.
    RF - Ross Youngs led in hits, OBP, BB and the N.L. in strikeouts.

    C - Bill Rariden didn't hit so good.
    LF - Joe Wilhoit hit good and was traded in January.
    IF - Ed Sicking got a chance at 2B/3B but didn't hit.
    OF - Jim Thorpe was barely a league average hitter in 119 PA's.
    2B - Jose Rodriguez played second base in place of Doyle in 50 games and was atrocious at the dish. Traded in January.

    P - Pol Perritt was the only regular and went 18-13.
    P - Slim Sallee was solid but 8-8.
    P - Rube Benton was 15-9.
    P - Red Causey the rookie Texan went 11-6.
    P - Fred Toney bought from CIN in July and went 6-2 with a 158 OPS+.
    P - Jeff Tesreau was solid in 9 starts.
    P - Al Demaree was at least average and then was released in the winter.
    P - Jesse Barnes came off a league-leading 21 losses to go 6-1 with a 1.81 ERA.
    RP - Fred Anderson was ok in 70 IP.
    RP - Bob Steele bought from the Pirates; the youngster didn't much better than Anderson in 66 IP.
    RP - Ferdie Schupp threw 33 innings and gave up 28 ER.
    RP - Waite Hoyt went on to an HoF career but got one inning in and was traded in the offseason.

    McGraw brought in 5 young pitchers due to the unreliablility of his staff but none stuck except Nehf. Barnes and Benton stepped up. They finished behind the Reds who were led by Edd Roush, Heinie Groh and Slim Sallee who was lost on waivers in March and went 21-7 - all former Giants within 3 years. McGraw was slowly building another championship caliber infield.

    1919 - 87-53, 2nd place:
    C - Lew McCarty hit good in 85 games.
    1B - Hal Chase was aging and acquired from the Reds for Holke and Rariden. Played well but was shrouded in controversy in his last major league year.
    2B - Larry Doyle was raking again.
    SS - Art Fletcher
    3B - Heinie Zimmerman was solid if not spectacular.
    LF - George J. Burns led the N.L. in runs, steals, BB, OBP
    CF - Benny Kauff played a full year and led in HR and RBI.
    RF - Ross Youngs was right there with Burns.

    C - Mike Gonzalez a 6 year Cuban vet purchased in May didn't hit. Barely played the next 2 years.
    IF - Frankie Frisch was signed from college in June and played 54 games.
    1B - High Pockets Kelly hit .290 in 107 AB's.
    C - Frank Snyder was a proven vet who they got for Schupp in July to pick up for Gonzalez.
    IF - Al Baird got his only real season in with 89 PA's.
    OF - Jigger Statz the soon to be P.C.L. legend hit .300 in 60 AB's.
    C - Oil Smith was the product of the big January trade. Played ok in 21 games.
    Bob Kinsella, whose name was borrowed for Field of Dreams played his only 3 games.

    P - Jesse Barnes went 25-9.
    P - Rube Benton
    P - Art Nehf was outstanding and 9-2. Traded Red Causey and 3 others to the Braves for him on 8/1.
    P - Fred Toney was really good again.
    P - Red Causey was 9-3 but not pitching so hot and got flipped.
    P - Pol Perritt was burned out.
    RP - Jean Dubuc was solid in his last season and led baseball in games finished.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 09-17-2019, 04:41 PM.

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    When McGraw was run out of Baltimore and jumped from the A.L. back to the Giants on July 7th as de facto general manager, manager and player he immediately released 9 players (mostly on the 17th) even though owner Andrew Freedman protested. The Giants club was so terrible. He brought 6 players with him and nearly totally gutted the pitching staff. McGraw mostly played SS in his last extended time in the field:

    Jumped with McGraw:
    1B - Dan McGann was a solid first baseman and very good hitter.
    UT - Roger Bresnahan the flamed out pitching prodigy turned catcher and utility man. Future catching equipment innovator and manager/coach.
    P - Joe McGinnity was already renowned for his stamina, wildness and effectiveness in the majors and minors.
    UT - Jack Dunn flamed out as a pitcher and became a utility infielder. Future owner of the I.L. Baltimore Orioles that was a pipeline of major league talent through the 1930's.
    CF - Steve Brodie was a long time solid CF for Baltimore and retired after the season.
    P - Jack Cronin never materialized and was traded for Bill Dahlen after 1903.

    When McGraw got there around July 7th he had...

    1902 Giants upon arrival were 23-50:
    C - Frank Bowerman was a former Oriole teammate already on the Giants and a stalwart behind the plate for McGraw.
    1B - Hal O'Hagan was a career minor leaguer and was released.
    2B - Heinie Smith managed the Giants to the tune of 5-27 before McGraw and was shipped out after the season.
    SS - Joe Bean was released and never played in the majors again. Stuck with Jersey City in the Eastern League for 6 years.
    3B - Billy Lauder was released after 1903 and played in the minors sparsely afterward.
    OF - George Browne was bought from Philly on 6/21 and had some good years for McGraw through 1907.
    OF - Jim Jones was released and caught on with Newark and Montreal of the E.L. for years.
    OF - George Van Haltren was 36 and played one more season.

    C - George Yeager was released and signed with Baltimore.
    OF - Roy Clark was released. Little record of him exists.
    SS - Heinie Wagner was released. He caught on as a regular for Boston from 1907-13 and got MVP votes in 2 seasons.
    OF - Joe Wall was released in August.

    P - Christy Mathewson hung around, I think.
    P - Dummy Taylor led baseball with 27 losses in '01 and was a solid 3rd starter through 1908.
    P - Roy Evans was an itinerant major leaguer since 1897. Released and out of the majors after 1903.
    P - Tully Sparks jumped to NY from StL before the year. He was released and was solid for Philly for 6 years.
    P - John Burke made his only career start before McGraw released him.
    P/OF - Libe Washburn was released.

    In 1903 the Giants finished second at 84-55 and 6.5 games behind Pittsburgh. McGraw was slowly revamping his infield. George Davis tried to jump back to the Giants after a year away with the White Sox. Which caused a huge and I mean huge controversy after the N.L. and A.L. had made peace and led to Davis sitting out the entire season after just 4 games. He went forward with...

    1903 - 84-55, 2nd place:
    C - Jack Warner was a long time former Giant sold after 1904.
    1B - Dan McGann
    2B - Billy Gilbert came from Baltimore after the 1902 season before a stop with the Browns whom he never played for.
    SS - Charlie Babb was 30 and had had a long career in the Interstate League. Traded for Dahlen after 1903.
    3B - Billy Lauder was released after 1903 and played in the minors sparsely afterward.
    LF - Sam Mertes was outstanding in the field and jumped over and led the league in RBI and doubles.
    CF - Roger Bresnahan hit .350 this year.
    RF - George Browne

    OF - George Van Haltren in his final season.
    IF - Jack Dunn
    C - Frank Bowerman
    John McGraw had 15 PA's.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Joe McGinnity
    P - Dummy Taylor
    P - Jack Cronin
    P - Roscoe Miller jumped from Detroit on 7/21 in '02 and was released in August '03.
    P - Red Ames got two starts at age 20 and was a solid starter for NY through 1912.

    This was to be the year McGraw solidified the infield with Dahlen and astute scouting of Devlin along with Wiltse and Ames who anchored down the back end of the rotation for years.

    1904 'World Champion' Giants:
    C - Frank Bowerman
    1B - Dan McGann
    2B - Billy Gilbert
    SS - Bill Dahlen was acquired in a lopsided trade for Charlie Babb and Jack Cronin.
    3B - Art Devlin was scouted by McGraw and bought from Newark to become a NY regular through 1911.
    LF - Sam Mertes
    CF - Roger Bresnahan
    RF - George Browne

    C - Jack Warner
    IF - Jack Dunn played a lot of third base.
    OF - Turkey Mike Donlin was a former Oriole brought in from Cincinnati in a nice 3 way trade. He raked the next year then basically lost his career to off field interests and/or problems.
    OF - Moose McCormick was signed late in '03 then traded for Donlin in August.
    C - Doc Marshall was experienced and hit .353 in 17 AB's.
    Long retired Jim O'Rourke and Dan Brouthers played a game at the end of the season. McGraw played 41 innings at 2B/SS in 4 games.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Joe McGinnity
    P - Dummy Taylor
    P - Hooks Wiltse was signed by McGraw out of Troy, NY. Lefty went 12-0 in his first 12 starts. Regular through 1912.
    P - Red Ames

    1905 World Series winners:
    C - Roger Bresnahan
    1B - Dan McGann
    2B - Billy Gilbert
    SS - Bill Dahlen
    3B - Art Devlin
    LF - Turkey Mike Donlin
    CF - Sam Mertes
    RF - George Browne

    C - Frank Bowerman
    UT - Sammy Strang was mostly a 2B/CF bought from Brooklyn in January and sold to the minors after '08.
    C/1B - Boileryard Clarke was picked up on 4/6 for his final season before being sold to the minors.
    Moonlight Graham had his legendary to be moment this season.

    P - Christy Mathewson threw his famous 3 CG, SHO in the World Series this year.
    P - Joe McGinnity
    P - Dummy Taylor
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Claude Elliot was the only other pitcher to see action besides the rotation.

    Then the Giants ran into the Tinker-Evers-Chance Cubs teams. McGraw was trying to find a consistent slugger the last couple years with Donlin and now Cy Seymour who played well but not as expected as he was getting old.

    1906 - 96-56, second to 116 win Cubs:
    C - Roger Bresnahan
    1B - Dan McGann
    2B - Billy Gilbert was sold to Tri-State League Trenton after the year before resurfacing with the Cardinals in '08-09.
    SS - Bill Dahlen
    3B - Art Devlin
    LF - Sammy Strang led baseball with a .423 OBP in 376 PA's.
    CF - Spike Shannon was the Cards field captain acquired for Mertes. Would go on to be solid player and mentor to young players like Fred Snodgrass.
    RF - George Browne

    C - Frank Bowerman
    OF - Cy Seymour flamed out for NY as a pitcher in the 1890's. Bought in July as after being the best hitter in the league in '05. Played well for them through 1910.
    CF - Sam Mertes was traded for Shannon after hitting .237 through 71 games.
    OF - Mike Donlin played just 37 games.
    C - Doc Marshall was also traded for Shannon after seeing action in 38 games.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Joe McGinnity
    P - Dummy Taylor
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    19-year-old Henry Mathewson got a start this season too.

    Age was now catching up to Dahlen, McGann, Bowerman and McGinnity. We start to see more players seeing action in games and slowly more young players debuting.

    1907 - 82-71, 4th place:
    C - Roger Bresnahan
    1B - Dan McGann was 35 and the second best hitter on the team.
    2B - Larry Doyle was signed on July at 20 to replace Cork and Gilbert. 1912 MVP started through 1920.
    SS - Bill Dahlen hit .207 at age 37.
    3B - Art Devlin
    LF - Cy Seymour led the team in RBI at age 34.
    CF - Spike Shannon hit leadoff and led the league in runs.
    RF - George Browne

    C - Frank Bowerman is now 38.
    OF - Sammy Strang
    2B - Tommy Corcoran the excellent old Reds SS was released in July after he couldn't fill Billy Gilbert's shoes at age 38.
    1B - Fred Merkle got his first 15 game cup of coffee at 18.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Joe McGinnity was 36 and winding down with an 18-18 record. Still a workhorse though.
    P - Dummy Taylor
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Mike Lynch was signed from Pittsburgh in June and didn't pitch well in 10 starts. Never saw the majors again.

    Things began to change this offseason. McGraw was slowly adding pieces to the club that would win 3 straight pennants from '11-13 while winning now. He traded Dahlen, McGann, Bowerman and Browne to the Braves for Fred Tenney (36), Tom Needham (29) and Al Bridwell (24). They tied for second with Pittsburgh one game behind the Cubs in an exciting pennant race. This is the 'Merkle's Boner' season.

    1908 - 98-57, 2nd place:
    C - Roger Bresnahan
    1B - Fred Tenney a veteran of excellent and poor Boston infields led the league in runs this year.
    2B - Larry Doyle was signed in July at 20 and replacing Cork and Gilbert. 1912 MVP started through 1920.
    SS - Al Bridwell played very well.
    3B - Art Devlin
    LF - Turkey Mike Donlin decided to show up this year and be easily the best hitter on the team.
    CF - Cy Seymour
    RF - Moose McCormick was bought back from the Phillies now after being traded for Donlin back in '04. Best PH of the day.

    2B - Buck Herzog would see 3 stints and 4 World Series in NY.
    OF - Spike Shannon was claimed by Pittsburgh off waivers in July.
    C - Tom Needham played his only season here before 6 more with the Cubs.
    OF - Shad Barry was bought in August and seeing his last major league action at 29.
    2B - Sammy Strang hit .094 and was sold to Dunn's Orioles in the summer.
    1B - Fred Merkle got in 38 games at age 19.
    OF - Josh Devore got in 5 games at 20.
    C - Fred Snodgrass the future CF got in 4 games at 20.
    OF - Steve Evans was in 2 games and left to play 5 years as a regular for the Cardinals and tore up the F.L. before heading to the minors.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Joe McGinnity in his final season.
    P - Dummy Taylor went to the minors after '08 where he played until age 40.
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Rube Marquard got his first little cup of coffee as Freedman signed the $11,000 beauty i.e. the most ever paid for a player.
    RP - Doc Crandall was made one of the first near true relievers by McGraw before jumping to the F.L. and barely seeing the majors after.

    McGraw traded Roger Bresnahan for Admiral Schlei, Red Murray (StL best hitter) and Bugs Raymond (StL best P). Bresnahan was a hot managerial prospect and wanted the opportunity to be a player/manager and the Cardinals wanted him. The infielders really carried this team offensively and defensively that again lacked a great hitter to make them a pennant contender. Pittsburgh finished first and 18.5 ahead of the Giants.

    1909 - 92-61, third place:
    C - Admiral Schlei was ok offensively and above average defensively as he always was.
    1B - Fred Tenney was winding down in his last year with the club before one last go with the Braves.
    2B - Larry Doyle
    SS - Al Bridwell
    3B - Art Devlin
    LF - Red Murray led the team in triples, steals and RBI and the league in HR with 7.
    CF - Bill O'Hara in his only full season in the majors outside 3 PA. Was the worst hitting regular. McGraw got him from old buddy Jack Dunn in Baltimore. O'Hara then went home to Toronto for 6 years to wind down his minor league career.
    RF - Moose McCormick hit well but couldn't run real well anymore. Left the club to become a salesman for 2 years and then returned in '12.

    OF - Cy Seymour could still hit. But didn't play as much as O'Hara. He must have been injured.
    C - Chief Meyers was an indian about to become the best hitting catcher of the decade.
    LF/UT - Buck Herzog hit just .185 in 148 PA and was traded after the year.
    1B - Fred Merkle hit just .191 in 79 games but was still taking over the first base job.
    SS - Art Fletcher got purchased from Dallas after he started arguments with Giants players in game and routinely tried to spike them on the bases. McGraw said "...he's my kind of player." and signed him on the spot. A year younger than Bridwell. He was about to become the SS through mid-1920.
    OF - Josh Devore got 33 PA's.
    OF - Fred Snodgrass got 81 PA mostly in the OF.
    C - Art Wilson caught 19 games.
    UT - Tillie Shafer hung around the club playing solid through '13.
    49 year old coach Arlie Latham saw action in 4 games.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Bugs Raymond was the 3rd best pitcher at 18-12.
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Rube Marquard went 5-13.
    RP - Doc Crandall
    Jake Weimer was bought from the Reds in July to see if he still had it and got a 3 inning shot before being released.

    Davore, Meyers, Snodgrass and Merkle break through into the starting lineup and finish 13 back to the final pennant for the Tinker-Evers-Chance Cubs. The pitching staff is looking potentially weak. McGraw wasn't going to get his big slugger. Just had a group of fundamentally sound, all-star caliber, possible MVP candidate guys. Doyle was the best player. In his classic Pitching in a Pinch, Christy Mathewson wrote about the impact of Devore and the other Giants runners, Fred Snodgrass, Red Murray, Fred Merkle, and Larry Doyle. He said, “Once they get on the bases they were like loose mercury. They couldn’t be caught. McGraw stole his way to a pennant with this quintet of runners.”

    1910 - 91-63, 2nd place:
    C - Chief Meyers caught 117 games and hit .285.
    1B - Fred Merkle led NY in doubles and slugging.
    2B - Larry Doyle played damn good.
    SS - Al Bridwell played damn good.
    3B - Art Devlin played damn good.
    LF - Josh Davore hit leadoff and was among the team leaders in all but RBI and slugging.
    CF - Fred Snodgrass paced the club in BA, OBP and OPS+
    RF - Red Murray led in RBI and steals again.

    CF - Cy Seymour playing in his last season in NY before a 38 game stint in '13 with the Braves.
    OF - Beals Becker was acquired for Herzog and put up a 130 OPS+ the year after leading baseball in strikeouts.
    IF - Art Fletcher played 51 games.
    C - Admiral Schlei hit really bad.
    C - Art Wilson
    IF - Tillie Shafer was in 29 games.
    1B - Hank Gowdy was signed out of Dallas like Fletcher and would have a long career as a catcher with the Braves.
    OF - Wee Willie Keeler signed in May and went 3-10 with 10 walks and 5 runs in his final 19 games.

    P - Christy Mathewson
    P - Bugs Raymond was easily the worst pitcher on the team at 4-11 the only one with a losing record.
    P - Hooks Wiltse
    P - Red Ames
    P - Louis Drucke had a cup the year before. He pitched well but flamed out after this year.
    P - Rube Marquard only got 70 innings and went 4-4 in 8 starts.
    RP - Doc Crandall
    Last edited by bluesky5; 03-28-2020, 08:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Great info and pictures on this thread. Love me some John McGraw

    George Bernard Shaw described John McGraw as "the most typically American man that he ever met."

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    I have just published "Young John McGraw Of Truxton" and it is available on Amazon. It covers the first 17 years of McGraw's life in Truxton, NY. I try to resolve various errors found in his previous biographies. You might find it very interesting to read what his friends and local reporters thought of him when he was a teenager.

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    ^^ that was a fantastic piece of info on the great John McGraw, Floyd. Nice post!

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Any more coments on the Bill James James breakdown on McGraw's managing skills. Agree? Disagree? I was hoping it would generate some lively discussion.
    James does not sound quite accurate in his evaluation of McGraw's progressiveism on relief pitching, and other issues:

    --He reportedly made Sandy Piez the first pinch runner in MLB History

    --He was the earliest big proponent of relief pitching. From 1903-1909 the Giants had 104 saves. The second place team in that category, the Cubs, had only 54.

    --He made Doc Crandell one of the first relief specialists. Maybe the first.

    More from the book I'm reading:

    Capture.PNG

    Capture 2.PNG

    Capture 4.PNG

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    The best possible actor to play John J. McGraw would have been the young James Cagney. Couldn't get a better stereo-type.

    I wish I could find that list that McGraw made of the black players he wished he could sign up. That would be interesting. Starting with John Lloyd.

    McGraw was the biggest supporter of bringing black players into baseball. He took his team to Havana, Cuba for many years to play their best players.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Seems strange that McGraw's teams walked more in the deadball era than the liveball era. Of course McGraw was one of the first to utilize high OBP, but the team's success was more intermittent as he got away from the approach. I wonder why he allowed that to happen?

    NY-BB-OBP:
    '02 - 16 - 16 with no McGraw until July 17th
    '03 - 5 - 5
    '04 - 1 - 1 pennant (World's Champions though)
    '05 - 1 - 1 World Series
    '06 - 1 - 1
    '07 - 1 - 1
    '08 - 1 - 1
    '09 - 2 - 1
    '10 - 2 - 1
    '11 - 5 - 1 pennant
    '12 - 4 - 1 pennant
    '13 - 10 - 2 pennant
    '14 - 10 - 3
    '15 - 15 - 15
    '16 - 14 - 11
    '17 - 13 - 4 pennant
    '18 - 15 - 11
    '19 - 12 - 9
    '20 - 7 - 10
    '21 - 4 - 4 World Series
    '22 - 9 - 4 World Series
    '23 - 6 - 4 pennant
    '24 - 8 - 5 pennant
    '25 - 13 - 13
    '26 - 16 - 15
    '27 - 8 - 5
    '28 - 12 - 5
    '29 - 11 - 7
    '30 - 13 - 6
    '31 - 15 - 7
    '32 - 15 - 13
    Last edited by bluesky5; 09-30-2019, 11:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Too bad McGraw messed up his knee for good in 1903. He likely would have ended up the best player/manager ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Victory Faust
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Ah...That's the guy that Arnold Rothstein told was a "former" champion.

    Abe Atell: Yeah, but I was champ. Featherweight champeen of the world!
    Arnold Rothstein: Yesterday. That was yesterday.
    Abe Atell: No A.R. you're wrong. I was champ, and can't nothin take that away.

    Abe was 100 percent right, by the way. But he sullied that legacy by becoming Abe Attell, Black Sox conspirator. And can't nothing take that away, either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
    Yeah...the one who told Sleepy Bill Burns and Billy Maharg the money was "All out on bets."
    Ah...That's the guy that Arnold Rothstein told was a "former" champion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Victory Faust
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Was he the former boxer guy in the film?

    Yeah...the one who told Sleepy Bill Burns and Billy Maharg the money was "All out on bets."

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
    Every time I see "Eight Men Out" I think the actor who played Abe Attell is the spitting image of a young Muggsie
    Was he the former boxer guy in the film?

    Leave a comment:


  • Victory Faust
    replied
    Every time I see "Eight Men Out" I think the actor who played Abe Attell is the spitting image of a young Muggsie

    Leave a comment:


  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    How bout who'd play Wilbert Robinson?
    John Candy (in his prime)

    Leave a comment:

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