Top Pitchers of All Time Poll-#19

[538280]

This is the 18th installment of the pitcher polls. The rules are simple, submit your top 10 pitcher list (minus already elected pitchers, which I"ll get to in a minute). Lists must be clearly numbered 1-10 and please make it easy to identify who you're voting for. 12 points will be awarded to your #1 selection, 9 to #2, 8 to #3, 7 to #4, and so on. The pitcher with the most points will win the poll. In the event of a tie, the pitcher with the most first place votes will win. In the event that they have the same amount of first place votes as well, we'll have a runoff poll that lasts two days between the two tied pitchers. Also, if you make any really strange decisions, you'll be asked to justify them. If you don't justify them, then your ballot won't be counted. So far we have elected these 10 pitchers:

1.Walter Johnson
2.Roger Clemens
3.Lefty Grove
4.Cy Young
5.Pete Alexander
6.Christy Mathewson
7.Greg Maddux
8.Tom Seaver
9.Warren Spahn
10.Satchel Paige
11.Randy Johnson
12.Bob Feller
13.Kid Nichols
14.Bob Gibson
15.Steve Carlton
16.Pedro Martinez
17.Smokey Joe Williams
18.Juan Marichal

Last poll 17 ballots were submitted. Juan Marichal ended up with a pretty good lead over #2 Sandy Koufax and #3 Carl Hubbell. Here is everyone who received 20 or more points (first place votes in parenthesis):

Juan Marichal-132 (6)
Sandy Koufax-119 (4)
Carl Hubbell-109 (2)
Mordecai Brown-70 (1)
Whitey Ford-69 (1)
Robin Roberts-67 (1)
Nolan Ryan-58
Jim Palmer-42
Ed Walsh-40
John Clarkson-37 (1)
Tim Keefe-33 (1)
Dazzy Vance-25
Eddie Plank-22

[538280]

1.Robin Roberts
2.Carl Hubbell
3.Sandy Koufax
4.Gaylord Perry
5.Dazzy Vance
6.Fergie Jenkins
7.Jim Palmer
8.Whitey Ford
9.Ed Walsh
10.Nolan Ryan

Last poll I was the only member to have Robin Roberts #1 on my ballot. I think he's been really underrated by almost everyone. The probable reason for this is because people aren't quite realizing the magnitude of his peak, 1950-1955. I think that was one of the greatest peaks of all time. For evidence of this, you can look towards his black ink totals. Over that six year period, Roberts cumulated 62 points of Black Ink.

Out of the other players who came ahead of him in the last poll, only Sandy Koufax was able to accumulate that much boldface in his entire career, and obviously Sandy has some longevity concerns (he didn't even pitch half as many innings as Roberts).

Comparing Sandy's six best years to Robin's, it's actually not so clear who was better. Koufax pitched 1632.7 innings, Roberts pitched 1937.7. Koufax was more effective per inning, posting an ERA+ over that period of 161, compared to Roberts' 135. But, Roberts did pitch 305 more innings. I think Koufax's peak was a bit better, but it's not so clear. Koufax was also pitching in a park that helped him big time while Roberts was playing in a basically neutral park, and it's easier to post superhuman ERA+ when you're pitching less innings.

Of course, both men's arms were shot after that time. Koufax quit entirely because of it, while Roberts still continued to pitch 250-275 innings a year at slightly less than average effectiveness. Then he really tailed off to have a horrible year in 1961 (1-10, 70 ERA+). He did have somewhat of a resurrection over the next few years in Baltimore, again posting good ERAs relative to league with winning records.

I think that is the other main reason for Roberts being underrated, he wasn't near the pitcher he used to be after 1955. But, he still was top 5 in innings pitched for the next three years, and complete games for the next four. Despite the ERA, an innings eater like that does have lots of value. He saves the bullpen and other pitchers from overwork, and has a positive effect on the rest of the pitching staff. By pitching so many innings and completing so many games he was boosing the performance of other players.

[Francoeurstein]

I'll go

Carl Hubbell
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Robin Roberts
Whitey Ford
Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Jim Palmer
Ed Plank

[mac195]

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Whitey Ford
3. Jim Palmer
4. Carl Hubbell
5. Robin Roberts
6. Dazzy Vance
7. Nolan Ryan
8. Ed Walsh
9. Mordecai Brown
10. Gaylord Perry

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Koufax
2. Brown
3. Hubbell
4. Walsh
5. Clarkson
6. Roberts
7. Keefe
8. Rogan
9. Plank
10. Vance

[baseballPAP]

1-Mordecai Brown
2-Nolan Ryan
3-Robin Roberts
4-Dazzy Vance
5-Carl Hubbell
6-Ed Walsh
7-Rube Foster
8-Sandy Koufax
9-Masaichi Kaneda (the Japanese Cy Young....over 700 decisions career, 400+ wins)
10-Mariano Rivera (The best closer in history, and a closer is at least as important to a team as a starter these days, and for much of the last 35 years)

[abacab]

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Carl Hubbell
3. Jim Palmer
4. Ed Walsh
5. Whitey Ford
6. Robin Roberts
7. Nolan Ryan
8. Three Finger Brown
9. Gaylord Perry
10. Eddie Plank

[dgarza]

1. Tim Keefe
2. John Clarkson
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Whitey Ford
5. Eddie Plank
6. Carl Hubbell
7. Al Spalding
8. Sandy Koufax
9. Mordecai Brown
10. Jim Palmer

[leecemark]

1) Sandy Koufax
2) Carl Hubbell
3) Robin Roberts
4) Jim Palmer
5) Hal Newhouser
6) Dazzy Vance
7) Whitey Ford
8) Nolan Ryan
9) Gaylord Perry
10) Ed Walsh
--in queue; Clarkson, Walsh, Brown, Jenkins

[abacab]

Rank in this poll....name.....rank in last poll....difference

1... Walter Johnson......1.......0
2....Roger Clemens.......5......+3
3....Lefty Grove.........2......-1
4....Cy Young............4.......0
5....Pete Alexander......6......+1
6....Christy Mathewson...3......-3
7....Greg Maddux.........7.......0
8....Tom Seaver.........10......+2
9....Warren Spahn........8......-1
10...Satchel Paige.......9......-1
11...Randy Johnson......11.......0
12...Bob Feller.........13......+1
13...Kid Nichols........14......+1
14...Bob Gibson.........15......+1
15...Steve Carlton......16(T)...+1
16...Pedro Martinez.....18......+2
17...Joe Williams.......25......+8
18...Juan Marichal......20......+2

[KCGHOST]

1. Clarkson
2. Keefe
3. Rusie
4. Hubbell
5. Ford
6. Newhouser
7. M. Brown
8. Marichal
9. Koufax
10. Palmer

[Blackout]

1 Whitey Ford
2 Sandy Koufax
3 Mordecai Brown
4 Mariano Rivera
5 "Bullet" Joe Rogan
6 Jose Mendez
7 Carl Hubbel
8 Nolan Ryan
9 Rube Waddell
10 Jim Palmer

[baseballPAP]

Rank in this poll....name.....rank in last poll....difference

1... Walter Johnson......1.......0
2....Roger Clemens.......5......+3
3....Lefty Grove.........2......-1
4....Cy Young............4.......0
5....Pete Alexander......6......+1
6....Christy Mathewson...3......-3
7....Greg Maddux.........7.......0
8....Tom Seaver.........10......+2
9....Warren Spahn........8......-1
10...Satchel Paige.......9......-1
11...Randy Johnson......11.......0
12...Bob Feller.........13......+1
13...Kid Nichols........14......+1
14...Bob Gibson.........15......+1
15...Steve Carlton......16(T)...+1
16...Pedro Martinez.....18......+2
17...Joe Williams.......25......+8
18...Juan Marichal......20......+2

So, who was 12th originally that is no better than 19th now?

[abacab]

So, who was 12th originally that is no better than 19th now?

Three Finger

[christian gentleman]

10 again

1. sandy koufax
2. whitey ford
3. nolan ryan
4. amos rusie
5. addie joss
6. mordecai brown
7. luis tiant
8. rube waddell
9. dazzy vance
10. jim palmer