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  • #31
    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
    Wow. It took this long for someone to realize that I was using sarcastic, ironic humor!

    Friends! In #3-4, and the national economy, there WAS NO RESERVE CLAUSE!!! That was my point. Baseball was the only business that was allowed to impose a slave condition on their workers. The ONLY ONE.

    If the fields I mentioned had had a reserve clause, they would not have been able to deveolp as freely, and expanded as they did!! That was my sarcastic point. Sheesh. Took long enough.
    by which type of slave condition de facto or de jure

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    • #32
      Originally posted by philipthegreat View Post
      by which type of slave condition de facto or de jure
      de facto. Baseball was granted a waiver exemption from the national Sherman anti-trust law.

      And that was a disaster for the players, a bonanza for the owners.

      The Federal L. tried to sue the MLs, but a Federal Judge killed the lawsuit by 'pocketing' the case. Which is why the Federal L. finally threw in the towel, after only 2 seasons.
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-13-2007, 07:57 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
        If you were a factory worker whose salary or job was not guarenteed during a bust cycle, then yes, I think they would have liked a reserve clause that would have guarenteed their salary. Do you seriously think these workers could shop their services around for better wages? That was the arguement that political leaders used against the union movement since the 1840s, ie: a worker should be able to negotiate for himself which in the pst was peobably the most one sided negotiation someone could indulge in. The reserve clause gave the players a bit of a sense of secuirty, that unlike industrial workers, they had better than average job security. I agree with Bkmckenna that ballplayers are not really deserving of this sympathy about the reserve clause.

        Have you ever studied how working people were treated in this country prior to WWII?
        the reserve clause did not guarantee wages.....it reserved the right to resign a player without having to fight other teams over an open market. We are not talking about crappy players keeping jobs here, we are talking about good players forced to stay in the minors and great players forced to stay with their team.

        crappy players would be released, so it didn't really affect them. Good players were kept and if there was a better player ahead of them toiled in the minors forever.


        so this is not about a factory worker who is barely holding onto a job, this is like one who has worked for awhile and is qualified to get a raise somewhere else yet his current boss refuses to let him go. This is also about a worker at the top of his profession who wants to go somewhere else and work but his boss will not let him even though there would be offers.
        "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

        -Bill James

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        • #34
          Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
          the reserve clause did not guarantee wages.....it reserved the right to resign a player without having to fight other teams over an open market. We are not talking about crappy players keeping jobs here, we are talking about good players forced to stay in the minors and great players forced to stay with their team.

          crappy players would be released, so it didn't really affect them. Good players were kept and if there was a better player ahead of them toiled in the minors forever.


          so this is not about a factory worker who is barely holding onto a job, this is like one who has worked for awhile and is qualified to get a raise somewhere else yet his current boss refuses to let him go. This is also about a worker at the top of his profession who wants to go somewhere else and work but his boss will not let him even though there would be offers.
          The reserve clause also guarenteed that a players salary would not be cut mid-season which I think was an important consdieration for a lot of players 100 years ago.

          You are using factory workers as the situation is today. I am using factory workers as the situation was in the late 19th century and early 20th century when the reserve clause started. It was an imperfect system, but one in which I could see both sides of it, plus the era in which it was imposed also has to be factored in. It was an era when workingmen had virtually no rights when it came to their employment. As was mentioned before, the star had the option to hold-out, which was an effective bargaining chip.

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          • #35
            so here is a quick question...those in favor of the reserve clause....are you primarily fans of big market teams or small market teams....more specifically are you fans of teams who had gigantic farm systems like the Cardinals and the Yankees?

            aside from the lack of control over their own lives for the players the reserve clause also made baseball less competitive. Where in free agency a team can fill needs during the off-season...when there was the reserve clause a team would have to hope they would discover the next great prospect in High School.

            we always here about how things like game-fixing and steroids hurt the integrity of the game, but there are ways that the owners have and do business that have had the same affect. Reserve clause is one, collusion is another, and today its the way the foreign players are signed.
            "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

            -Bill James

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            • #36
              Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
              The Federal L. tried to sue the MLs, but a Federal Judge killed the lawsuit by 'pocketing' the case. Which is why the Federal L. finally threw in the towel, after only 2 seasons.
              Things are not so cut and dried. The FL did not fail because of Landis. It failed because of typical business reasons - a group of men came together - at first they pumped a good deal of money into the venture - they're eyes got really big and they 1) overextended themselves, 2) believed in their product beyond it's actual potential 3) misjudged the strength of their competition. And, saw that their revenue potential was inadequate.

              The fact that their competition was a de facto monopoly only shows the levels of foresight and planning FL administrators omitted in their zest to declare themselves among the industry's elite.

              It is true that a federal judge, by his delayed ruling, tried to coax the parties to settle the case w/o a ruling that he believed would be injurous to both parties and an entire American business industry. Is this unprecedented? I don't know. Was it a dirty trick as implied? Doubt it.

              The Federal League folded, in essence, because because Phil Ball and Charles Weegham sought to buy into the established major leagues ...and did. Other factors also came into play:
              -financial strains
              -the FL could only fool the public for so long that it was a major before the revenue structure collapsed due to an essentially poor on-the-field product
              -they were trying to usurp an established business structure and only had limited success - mostly in the initial stages. The FL certainly had the right to present their product to consumers; however, there is no God-given right to success.

              In short the FL failed due to:
              -a poor initial plan
              -money
              -two wealthy owners jumping ship
              -lack of lucrative postseason
              -weak position in the industry
              Last edited by Brian McKenna; 10-13-2007, 08:31 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                so here is a quick question...those in favor of the reserve clause....are you primarily fans of big market teams or small market teams....more specifically are you fans of teams who had gigantic farm systems like the Cardinals and the Yankees?
                I believe that ML organizations provide a service for young, untrained talent. Baseball is the most highly-skilled sport to play at the top level. Young men in high school and college have yet to develop these skills and need extensive tiered training levels to hone their craft.

                It would be highly unreasonable to expect a business enterprise to offer such specialized and expensive training w/o offering it something in return.

                MLB in no way can merely accept the level of talent available outside their purview - as the NFL and NBA does. MLB is forced to train young men themselves. As I noted, baseball skills must be thoroughly developed. This is part of the reason why less than 10% of major leaguers actually have college degrees. They have to join an organization as young as possible to gain these skills.

                Young men make this commitment to an organization because of the training they will be given. The minor league system in baseball is not self-sufficient financially. Basketball and football is highly lucrative for the minor league training organizations - the colleges - that's why there is no reserve there.

                The question them becomes - at what point has an individual repaid their training organization for their investment. That issue has been negotiated through the basic agreement - and rightfully should be. At some point athletes should be granted free agency - no doubt.

                For the reasons listed above - the reserve clause still exists today in a negotiated form. The players are in a much better position due to arbitration and free agency today. Unfortunately, they did not ban together earlier to negotiate as one in these matters. And, unfortunately the athletes who have reached the majors and joined that union in no way have ever took up the cause of those who didn't.
                Last edited by Brian McKenna; 10-13-2007, 08:29 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                  Things are not so cut and dried. The FL did not fail because of Landis. It failed because of typical business reasons - a group of men came together - at first they pumped a good deal of money into the venture - they're eyes got really big and they 1) overextended themselves, 2) believed in their product beyond it's actual potential 3) misjudged the strength of their competition.

                  The fact that their competition was a de facto monopoly only shows the levels of foresight and planning FL administrators omitted in their zest to declare themselves among the industry's elite.

                  It is true that a federal judge, by his delayed ruling, tried to coax the parties to settle the case w/o a ruling that he believed would be injurious to both parties and an entire American business industry. Is this unprecedented? I don't know. Was it a dirty trick as implied? Doubt it.

                  The Federal League folded, in essence, because because Phil Ball and Charles Weegham sought to buy into the established major leagues ...and did. Other factors also came into play:
                  -financial strains
                  -the FL could only fool the public for so long that it was a major before the revenue structure collapsed due to an essentially poor on-the-field product
                  -they were trying to usurp an established business structure and only had limited success - mostly in the initial stages. The FL certainly had the right to present their product to consumers; however, there is no God-given right to success.

                  In short the FL failed due to:
                  -a poor initial plan
                  -money
                  -
                  Not a bad analysis, Brian, but I think you left out a few important points.

                  Yes, I agree with you that it takes more than money to challenge something like a sports monopoly, like MLB.

                  The FL failed to draw hardly any major stars to their rosters. The MLs were uncanny in their ability to hold on to their aggrieved, abused stars. Cobb, J.Jackson, Collins, Crawford, Lajoie, Baker, Speaker, Wheat, all chose to remain loyal.

                  The only major stars who acquiesced to the Feds 'seductions' were Hal Chase & Walter Johnson. Johnson signed a 3-year contract, at $17,500/season, and also accepted a $6K signing bonus. Clark Griffith had to dance really fast to turn that around, but he was finally able to convince Johnson that his loyalties belonged in the Washington team.

                  Griffith got Charles Comiskey to return the Feds' $6,000. bonus because he convinced him that if Johnson was pitching for the Chicago Fed competitor, it'd have been ruinous for his White Sox business. Johnson couldn't return the bonus because he had given it to his brother, Leslie, to buy a garage in Coffeyville, Kansas.

                  Griffith was able to persuade Johnson to accept the best offer of Washington President, Benjamin S. Minor, of only $12,500. for 1915, with the promise of a long-term contract at better money after that. And true to his word, in 1916, Johnson signed a 5-year contract at $16,000./season. (An amusing tid-bit was that Senators' President, Minor, who had paid Walter $12,000. for 1914, argued that Walter had slipped from 36 wins in 1913 to only 28 wins in 1914, and thus was not worth the $12,000. he was already receiving! Hardly a convincing negotiating position!)

                  But the Feds failed to see a hard business fact. In their 2 seasons, they had hurt the ML attendance very badly. The ML owners had felt compelled to up their stars salaries. Cobb, Speaker, Collins all got hefty raises.

                  Here is one example how how devastating the reserve clause was on a certain category of player.

                  In 1915, Comiskey gave Eddie Collins a 5 year contract at $15,000./season. That season, he also acquired Joe Jackson, but only offered him $6,000./season.

                  Now, if one knows anything at all about that era, Collins was not worth 2.5 times the value of Jackson, yet got an extended contract like that.

                  Why? Because Comiskey knew that Collins was college educated and could get a good job outside baseball. Comiskey knew Jackson was not schooled, not even in HS, and couldn't read/write, and hence his job prospects outside Baseball were very limited. And so he only offered Jackson a contract of $6,000.

                  If the reserve clause hadn't been in effect, and if Jackson had his freedom to offer his BB services around to the other 15 team owners, he surely wouldn't have been in such a position of weakness, when dealing with a vile abuser of the reserve clause.

                  Joe Jackson is a prime example of how the reserve clause hamstrung even a star player like Joe Jackson. And Jackson didn't have the backbone to mount a truly tough, hard-nosed salary campaign like Cobb/Speaker did.

                  Here is a brief look at how much the FL hurt ML attendance. I will show 3 seasons before and 2 after the FL's existence,
                  ---------------------------------
                  year - total ML att.-games---fans per game in MLs.
                  1911 -- 6,571,282 - 1,237---5,312 fans/game, before the FL challenge
                  1912 -- 5,999,390 - 1,232---4,869
                  1913 -- 6,358,336 - 1,234---5,152

                  1914 -- 4,454,988 - 1,256---3,546 fans/game, during FL challenge
                  1915 -- 4,864,826 - 1,245---3,907

                  1916 -- 6,503,519 - 1,247---5,215 fans/game, after FL challenge
                  1917 -- 5,219,994 - 1,247---4,186

                  So, one can see that ML attendance dipped from the 5,000 fans per game level before the FL, to under 4,000 fans per game, for 1914-15.

                  So, if the Feds had had access to that sensitive information, they would have realized just how hard they were hitting their rivals where it hurt, in the pocketbook.

                  If the Feds had known that, and had the fortitude to hold on for even one more season, or two, they would have gained much better terms of surrender.

                  The way it played out, it indeed seemed like a tactical maneuver by Phil Ball and Charles Weegham to gain favorable entrance terms to the ML structure.

                  Phil Ball ended up becoming a ML owner of the St. Louis Browns, January, 1917 - 1932. http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=406

                  When Ball was allowed into the AL, at one of the early meetings, he told this:

                  "Ball told his new associates that during the first year of the Federal League in St. Louis, he and his partner, Otto Steifel, lost $955,000 and last season they dropped about $14,000. "We danced." said Mr. Ball, *' and let me tell you, we also paid tile, and, what's more, we paid him well. Never mind, we are going to have a c. real ball club in St. Louis. This $ and the lost money may all come back. We took the chance slid. There is no kick coming."

                  Charles Weegham was allowed to to invest as the majority stockholder in the Chicago Cubs. The Cubs were able to abandon wooden West Side Park, for the modern, steel/concrete ballpark that Charles built for his Federal Chicago Whales, - Weegham Park. In 1921, Charles Weegham sold the team to chewing-gum magnate, William Wrigley, who promptly changed the name of the ballpark to one he liked better.
                  http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

                  I'm on a roll here, and in a looking-up, researching mode. So, just for fun, here are the 8 Federal League teams, and their owners.
                  Wikipedia: Baseball's Federal League: 1913-15

                  1. Chicago Whales - Charles A. Weegman (Chicago Restaurateur/fast lunch counters)

                  2. St. Louis Terriers - Philip De Catesby Ball (St. Louis ice king, sold ice manufacturing plants), James A. 'Jim' Gilmore (coal/paper stationer magnate), Otto Steifel (St. Louis brewer/banks/trusts director), Gates

                  3. Brooklyn Tip Tops - Robert/John Ward brothers (bakeries, Tip Top Bread) (Robert Ward dies October 19, 1915)

                  4. Buffalo Buffeds/Blues - Walter Mullen (local real estate-developer), Laurens Enos, Oliver Cabana, William E. Robertson

                  5. Pittsburgh Rebels - Edward Gwynner
                  6. Indianapolis Hoosiers - J. Ed Krause, replaced by Newark Peppers for 1915. In Newark, NJ, their owner was Harry Sinclair (oil baron)
                  7. Kansas City Packers - C.H. Mann
                  8. Baltimore Terrapins - Ned Hanlon

                  MLB sued the FL for raiding their rosters, in defiance of the 'reserve clause' rights. They sought injunctions against their players, 81 in all, who had played in the MLs, but signed with the FL anyway. In January, 1915, the FL retaliated by suing the MLs, in northern Illinois, under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, which prohibited monopolies from operating in interstate commerce. The sitting judge was no other than Judge Kenasaw Mountain Landis, who happened to be a ML partisan. Testimony ended January 22, 1915, but Judge Landis refused to issue a settlement. He believed that by delaying a decision, the parties would be pressured to come together in a private, settled agreement.

                  During their 2 year stint, the FL lost about $2.5m. Their lack of experience hurt them badly.

                  On December 22, 1915, in Cincinnati, OH, the Federal League/Organized Baseball sign the peace treaty, ending the Federal League challenge to the MLs.
                  The terms of the Peace Treaty were as follows.

                  1. The owners of the FL teams agree to go out of business.
                  2. Organized Baseball agrees to pay the 8 FL owners $600,000.
                  3. MLB agrees to take in 2 teams from the FL, one in the AL (St. Louis Browns, with Phil Ball as its owner), and the Chicago Cubs, (with Charles Weegman as its owner.) Thus, 2 FL owners are allowed to buy their way into the ML structure.
                  4. MLB agrees that the former FL players will all be eligible to play in the MLs, and the FL will be allowed to control the auction of its players to the MLs.

                  Thanks to Brian (bkmckenna), he has graciously contributed some of the terms of the Peace Treaty for us. How the $600,000. was divvied up.

                  Newark - Harry Sinclair of the Teapot Dome Scandal and Pat Powers, $100K and rights to players from Newark, KC and Buffalo and Benny Knauff, Lee Magee and George Anderson

                  Pittsburgh - Edward Gwynner - $50K plus sale of players

                  Baltimore - Ned Hanlon and others - offered but rejected $50K

                  Brooklyn - Ward - supposedly to receive $400K over 20 years

                  Buffalo - Stock sold to public

                  Kansas City - C.H. Mann

                  Buffalo and KC franchises were forfeited to the FL

                  The ML team hurt the most by the FL war was the Philadelphia Athletics. Connie Mack was pushed beyond his limit of patience. His team had just finished winning the pennant in 1914, only to lose the WS in 4 straight games to the Boston Braves, under George Stallings.

                  Despite finishing 1 in the pennant race, Connie's team had only finished 5th in attendance. 346,641, compared to 481,359 by attendance leader Boston Red Sox. Connie was hurt by Pennsylvania's blue laws, which prohibited the playing of baseball on Sundays.

                  So, when Mack heard the chronic complaining of his players, their requests for a raise, and knowing they were all receiving secret, illicit communications from the FL owners to jump the A's, and come play for the Feds, Mack panicked. Or acted decisively, depending on if you happen to like Mack, and characterize his actions kindly.
                  Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-19-2007, 12:05 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                    But the Feds failed to see a hard business fact. In their 2 seasons, they had hurt the ML attendance very badly. The ML owners had felt compelled to up their stars salaries. Cobb, Speaker, Collins all got hefty raises.
                    Good points.

                    There is no doubt that MLB was financially injured in the battle. That's why they negotiated with FL owners -- as they did previously with AA, PL and UA owners.

                    The lawsuit was also weighing over MLB's head too. Landis was unpredictable and MLB was right to avoid a ruling and negotiate a settlement.

                    FL administrators surely knew they were hurting MLB through attendance and salary factors. Fortitude is not enough when it comes to crunch time when everyone is hurt financially and backers begin to pull out. Ban Johnson only made it because of Somer's seemingly endless supply of cash at the critical initial phases of development.

                    ---

                    Comiskey had more respect for Collins for sure. And the facts proved him to be right. He didn't sell Comiskey out and lead to the destruction of his franchise like Jackson and the seven others did.

                    Collins was an icon in Philly, highly intelligent, respected throughout the game (especially by Mack) and a more valuable man to have around. Collins attained a 5-year contract through his status within the game. It wasn't by happenstance that he later came to run an organization.

                    Jackson was good but he was just another dumb ballplayer. And Comiskey negotiated with him as such and probably should have. Thruthfully, Jackson didn't command the level of respect that Collins did. Collins may not have been worth 2.5 times Jackson but he was much more established and respected a player than Jackson.

                    I don't think Comiskey believed so much that Collins would get up and leave baseball (he stayed in it for decades) and that's why he gave him a multi-year contract. Having the respect of ML executives and Collins' intelligence and deportment opened more doors for him than being an illiterate bumpkin would for Jackson.
                    Last edited by Brian McKenna; 10-13-2007, 09:04 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                      Good points.

                      There is no doubt that MLB was financially injured in the battle. That's why they negotiated with FL owners -- as they did previously with AA, PL and UA owners.
                      I agree. The FL war was not a sprint but a marathon. In protracted conflicts, it will be the side that is better financed that will be better able to endure in the long haul. This was more like the Peloponnese War than the Gulf War. War of attrition.

                      Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                      The lawsuit was also weighing over MLB's head too. Landis was unpredictable and MLB was right to avoid a ruling and negotiate a settlement.
                      Again, agreed. The MLs were quite right in settling this serious threat to their business, and as soon as possible too. They didn't know it at the time, but WWI was right around the corner for them, and to go through those war-shortened 1917-18 seasons, while still carrying the higher salaries, and lower attendance, might have been seriously ruinous to their profit margin. They might have been operating at a razor-thin profit with the FL war all by itself.

                      Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                      FL administrators surely knew they were hurting MLB through attendance and salary factors. Fortitude is not enough when it comes to crunch time when everyone is hurt financially and backers begin to pull out. Ban Johnson only made it because of Somer's seemingly endless supply of cash at the critical initial phases of development.
                      Agree once more.

                      ---

                      Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                      Comiskey had more respect for Collins for sure. And the facts proved him to be right. He didn't sell Comiskey out and lead to the destruction of his franchise like Jackson and the seven others did.
                      Alas, we must disagree here, Brian, as I'm sure you will understand. I agree with 6 of the 8 men out, but believe Buck Weaver got a raw deal. With respect to Joe Jackson, in my heart, I feel that there is sufficient reasonable doubt, that good people can disagree without compromising either their integrity/intelligence.

                      Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                      Collins was an icon in Philly, highly intelligent, respected throughout the game (especially by Mack) and a more valuable man to have around. Collins attained a 5-year contract through his status within the game. It wasn't by happenstance that he later came to run an organization.

                      Jackson was good but he was just another dumb ballplayer. And Comiskey negotiated with him as such and probably should have. Truthfully, Jackson didn't command the level of respect that Collins did. Collins may not have been worth 2.5 times Jackson but he was much more established and respected a player than Jackson.

                      I don't think Comiskey believed so much that Collins would get up and leave baseball (he stayed in it for decades) and that's why he gave him a multi-year contract. Having the respect of ML executives and Collins' intelligence and deportment opened more doors for him than being an illiterate bumpkin would for Jackson.
                      While I agree with what you say here, since when, in free agency, do owners pay their players according to their off-field intelligence? Were Canseco/Bo Jackson models of either deportment or on-field smarts? I don't think so.

                      I know that neither of us wish to hi-jack this good thread into a Jackson innocence side-track. Let's just say that without that one issue to color the discussion, Jackson wasn't really any worse than many others of his day in his ability to command respect. His illiteracy hurt him badly in the minds of stupid people, but it wasn't his fault that he and all his brothers had to work in the Greenville mills of North Carolina, and miss their education. They paid a high price for family survival.

                      The big winners of the FL war?

                      1. Phil Ball - Was allowed to buy his way into the MLs' owners' picture.
                      2. Charles Weegman - Same thing as above for Ball.
                      3. Eddie Collins - Got a 5-yr. contract at $15K. Great money for that time.
                      4. Cobb - Got 5-yr. contract for $20K.
                      5. W.Johnson - Got 5-yr. contract for $16K.
                      6. Fans of St. Louis/Chicago - Got new ballparks for the Browns/Cubs.

                      Biggest Losers:

                      1. Connie Mack - Couldn't hold on. Owners Shibe and his partner couldn't/wouldn't increase the players salaries, to meet the FL challenge.
                      2. Former owners of Browns/Cubs. Were apparently thrown under the bus.
                      3. All the owners of the MLs/FL, except Ball/Weegman. The ML owners had to pay $600,000.
                      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-19-2007, 12:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        How did MLB pay off their debt from buying off the FL clubs? I know when they bought out the AA - the new league instituted a 10% tax against profits through 1895.

                        I would also say that Landis was a big winner in the FL war. His salary was soon to enjoy a ten-fold increase.

                        Also, the Yankees were eventual winners considering the purchase of the club by Ruppert and Huston in December 1914.

                        Ban Johnson got a strong ally in Ball but eventually a fierce enemy in Ruppert/Huston.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bkmckenna View Post
                          How did MLB pay off their debt from buying off the FL clubs? I know when they bought out the AA - the new league instituted a 10% tax against profits through 1895.
                          Great question. I don't know. But I bet that they didn't pay it, or at least not in full.

                          After such a protracted business conflict, maybe the other 6 FL owners were not in a position to mount a full-blown legal war. I suspect that Ball/Weegman were content just to crack into the ML structure.

                          In fact, I'm not even sure that the other teams all had a figurehead individual to be called team owner. I looked and I looked but couldn't find team owners for the teams of: Pittsburgh Rebels, Indianapolis Hoosiers, Newark Peppers, Kansas City Packers, Baltimore Terrapins.

                          Can anyone find the real, actual owners of any of those teams? I'd be curious to find out.
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-13-2007, 12:21 PM.

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                          • #43
                            The ending teams:

                            Newark - Harry Sinclair of the Teapot Dome Scandal and Pat Powers, $100K and rights to players from Newark, KC and Buffalo and Benny Knauff, Lee Magee and George Anderson

                            Pitts - Edward Gwynner - $50K plus sale of players

                            Bal - Rasin, Ned Hanlon and others - offered but rejected $50K

                            Bkn - Ward - supposedly to receive $400K over 20 years

                            Buffalo - Stock sold to public

                            KC - C.H. Mann

                            Buffalo and KC franchises were forfeited to the FL
                            Last edited by Brian McKenna; 10-13-2007, 02:19 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Wow! Thank you, Brian. I truly appreciate your researching skills. I always like a content guy.

                              I searched all morning through my own library, and googled stuff up too. Couldn't come up with the good information you found. Were did you find it?

                              Nice job! Good going, Brian.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I've read that the final nail in the Federal League's coffin was the death of Robert Ward, who was supposed to have been pumping money into FL franchises that were swimming in red ink. Accorcing to Total Ballclubs, that before his death, Ward had promised to give the FL a million dollars to continue the war against the majors. The war had already cost him around $800,000 and his brothers did not want to continue the fight after his death

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