Derek Jeter and the All Star Game

[Brooklyn]

The comparison between Jeter and Larkin thread started me thinking about the all-star team. Jeter has played 10 full seasons and made 6 all-star teams. Sounds like a good run, but lets look at it a different way.

The Yankees made the WS 6 times during Jeter's 10 full years (1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003), meaning Torre managed the AL allstars and picked the back ups each of the following years.

When Torre was the manager of the AL all star team, Jeter made 5 of 6 all-star teams (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004), missing only in 1997

When Torre was not the manager of the AL all star team, Jeter only made 1 of 4 all-star teams (1998).

Does this sound to anyone else similar to kids in little league whose fathers are the coaches and pick them for the all-star teams?

I haven't done the analysis of what years Jeter deserved it vs. what years he didn't (and I think he was voted in once, which Torre obviously had nothing to do with), but I find it interesting that Torre took 4 SS's every year (except 2001, he took three). Seems like a disproportional amount of SS's just to make room for Jeter

[DoubleX]

Yet more evidence how polarizing Jeter is....Geez. People either overrate him or they overcompensate in the other direction and go out of their way to bring him down. This seems like the latter.

I think I'm going to start a thread now on exactly how many times Jeter really deserved to bat .300.

Seriously, the need to bring Jeter down is becoming an obsession for many.

Why can't there just be a middle ground that says "Jeter is very good ballplayer that was a major component of a number of championships teams, but is overrated from playing on championship teams in New York and having a pretty face."? Some people make it sound like the guy is just an average player that doesn't deserve any of the accolades he receives. It's really ridiculous.

[csh19792001]

Some people make it sound like the guy is just an average player that doesn't deserve any of the accolades he receives. It's really ridiculous.

That pretty much sums it up. Very nice post, XX.

Blame the stat mongers for this kind of sentiment.

[Tigerfan1974]

I grew up just north of Kalamazoo where Jeter is from.
He is a very good player on a very good team. He has done Michigan proud.

But I will still take Larkin or a healthy Garciaparra over Jeter.
Michael Young is proving to be an excellent SS after making the switch from 2d. I would take Young at least on a par with Jeter.
I think he is somewhat over rated.

[DoubleX]

That pretty much sums it up. Very nice post, XX.

Blame the stat mongers for this kind of sentiment.

Thanks. I really do think there is a large group of people out there who are on some witch-hunt to bring Jeter down whenever possible, and in doing so, vastly understate his ability and value.

Jeter is a very, very good baseball player, who is not as good as his New York and championship hype, but is much better than the witch-hunters portray him to be. I think part of the problem in evaluating Jeter is that he is part of this generation of monster SS, so while Jeter gets all of this attention, everyone likes to point out that he's not as good as some of his peers. But his peers are part of an unprecedent group at SS and that skews perspective a little.

[Myankee4life]

Jeter was robbed by the D##m Fans last year.....there's no way he wasn't an all star last year. It was a complete and utter DISGRACE.

[KCGHOST]

Michael Young is proving to be an excellent SS after making the switch from 2d. I would take Young at least on a par with Jeter.

Young has certainly developed a hitter he really has only had two good seasons at the plate (last year was tremendous). Young is an absolutely awful SS. By comparison Jeter is Ozzie Smith.

[digglahhh]

Agreed KC,

It would certainly benefit Texas to move Young back to 2B with Soriano gone and field a SS who is at least competent at the position. With their high powered offense and phone booth stadium, they could certainly withstand a "good field, no hit" guy plugging up the hole. Hit him 8th, they have offense to spare and virtually no defense to speak of.

[dl4060]

Yet more evidence how polarizing Jeter is....Geez. People either overrate him or they overcompensate in the other direction and go out of their way to bring him down. This seems like the latter.

I think I'm going to start a thread now on exactly how many times Jeter really deserved to bat .300.

Seriously, the need to bring Jeter down is becoming an obsession for many.

Why can't there just be a middle ground that says "Jeter is very good ballplayer that was a major component of a number of championships teams, but is overrated from playing on championship teams in New York and having a pretty face."? Some people make it sound like the guy is just an average player that doesn't deserve any of the accolades he receives. It's really ridiculous.

I do not think anyone thinks Jeter is just an average player. He is very good to outstanding, but he gets so much press, and is so overrated by the general public that people feel the need to bring him back to earth. If he were not overhyped by the press, and those who wax endlessly about his intangibles, then there would be fewer people who felt the need to present the other side. I do not think there is any logical way to show that DJ is one of the top 3 players in the game, but because he is now the "face" of baseball casual fans look at him that way. There is another problem too. It is much easier to quantify players in baseball than in football or basketball, sports where statistics are more of a function of the team and the style it plays. Stats in basketball are more dependant on the team around you than in baseball. In many cases on the court, the team would rather not have one player carry the scoring load. But in baseball is there ever an advantage in not getting on base? I cannot think of one. Basketball players are measured in championships much more so than baseball players. In baseball it is very hard for one player to have a truly huge impact on a team, whereas in basketball this is much more plausible. Because of this, the media overrates the value of world series rings. Think about Joe Montana, all the media talks about is his 4 rings, not the fact that he is the highest(or second highest) rated passer of alltime. They talk about Marino and say "but he never won a super bowl" as if that has anything to do with his greatness. In baseball, more so than any other sport, teams win championships, not players. The Yankees would have been a great team without DJ, but the lakers would not have won 3 straight without shaq, not even close. If you put Jeter on the brewers he would not have ever been in the playoffs, let alone the world series. But he would still be a terrific player, and that is what he is. I almost think it is too bad he does not play for a bad team, then this debate would not even be taking place.

[Brooklyn]

I think dl4060 said it very well. I consider Jeter a good player, but he is way overblown by the Media and being in NY. People that have him as a HOFer if his career ended right now are really overstating his acheivements.

Look at these two players, both stats through age 31. while Torre played more games through age 31, they had similar number of at-bats, so I think this comparison is meaningful:

H / R / HR / RBI

Jeter 1936 / 1159 / 169 / 763
Torre 1851 / 799 / 216 / 971

BA / OBP / Slug / OPS+

Jeter .314 / .386 / .461 / 121
Torre .303 / .368 / .470 / 134

Now Jeter is a SS and Torre was primarily a Catcher during his 20's, with some 1B and 3B as well, so they essentially both played the most important 2 positions on the field.


Torre had a fairly sharp decline after that, but that is part of my point. Through age 31, Torre put up better numbers than Jeter, yes no one thought of him as a HOFer. Jeter just hasn't done enough yet. If he declines sharply, I don't see him as a HOFer. I personally think he'll put up enough good years to be deserving, but he's not there yet.

Here's another comparison through age 31:

H / R / HR / RBI

Jeter 1936 / 1159 / 169 / 763
Vern Stephens 1663 / 930 / 231 / 1090

BA / OBP / Slug / OPS+

Jeter .314 / .386 / .461 / 121
Vern Stephens .288 / .359 / .469 / 122

This one is pretty close, and they both played SS. Jeter had 400 more AB's through age 31, which gives him a slight edge on the counting totals. I might give Jeter the edge in this matchup, but it is close. And Stephens is not a HOFer, either. He also only played a few more years after this, but again illustrates my point that Jeter is on the path to the HOF but not there yet

[DoubleX]

I think Torre should be in the Hall because he provided tremendous offense as a C than won an MVP at 3B, all mostly during an era that heavily favored pitching.

Stephens is very underrated. I think what hurt Stephens' candidacy is that he had most of his good years buried with St. Louis Browns, and in general the peak period may have been just a little too short. However, he did have three pretty monstrous seasons with Boston, and had he done that today, no doubt he'd be hailed as a superstar and probably overrated in many ways as well.

[GiambiJuice]

Jeter went on to make 8 more All Star teams, only one of which was managed by a Yankees manager.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Jeter went on to make 8 more All Star teams, only one of which was managed by a Yankees manager.

When you're voted in as a starter, managers are irrelevant. I like how you always avoid telling the full story with these tidbits.

[GiambiJuice]

When you're voted in as a starter, managers are irrelevant. I like how you always avoid telling the full story with these tidbits.

Jeez, what's with the personal attacks?

I overlooked that aspect and it was not intentional.

[TonyK]

I read this assuming it was another new thread bashing Jeter. Then I wondered, "Who are these guys?" as I recognized none of the posters.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. C'est la vie.