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All-time best single seasons in one lineup

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  • #46
    Originally posted by ElHalo
    Schmidt's 1981 certainly was extremely impressive (probably the only season of his career I'll say that about). You can't knock Al Rosen. Baker in 1912 was pretty solid. Boggs was better in 87 and 88 than 86 (like, clearly, across the board, in every way; not quite sure why you'd pick 86). ARod last year was, as has always been the case with him, horrifically overrated (don't get me started on the ten RBI game). I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why Heinie Groh's 1917 season is worth mentioning.

    But, let's be reasonable here. 117 games, obviously, is a HUGE problem. It cuts into the guy's value dramatically. But we're talking about a guy who hit .390 in a neutral era! Who led his league in BA, OBP, and SLG. Who, despite his relatively few games, finished in the top 10 in 2B, 3B, and HR. Who led the league in RC despite having 36 fewer games than the #2 guy. How often does somebody get more than an RBI a game in the modern game?

    Yes, it was a very, very short season, but Brett's dominating quality in 1980 just has to give an edge over most everybody. Forget 3B; it was the single most impressive season anyone had in the 70's or 80's. .390 with power? You kidding me? Quantity kills it a lot, of course, but come on now. If a guy pitches 160 innings, he's not as valuable as a guy who pitches 240. But if the 160 guy doesn't allow a single baserunner that whole time, you kind of have to give the edge to him.

    I do, of course, have to use that qualifier "most." Gotta go with Rosen overall. .336/43/145 is just so disgusting that there's not much to be said about it.
    Wow! I agree totally 100% with ElHalo!

    Actually I had originally chosen Rosen's 1953 near Triple Crown season. But I grew up in the time of Brett ( I was only 12 years old in 1980) and I still have fond memories of his run at .400. I looked forward to every Saturday Game of the Week as they gave updates on Brett's progress. But You can't go wrong with Rosen either.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-18-2006, 03:06 PM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #47
      [QUOTE=blackout805]A team:

      SS - A-rod 02
      3B - A-rod 05

      I am not knocking ARod because I agree that he had fabulous seasons in '02 and '05, among others. ARod's OPS+ of 152 in 2002 is very impressive (2 points higher than Honus' career total!), but I'd be inclined to take Honus' 1908 season as the "A" season among shortstops. An OPS+ of 205 for a shortstop, despite the differences in league strength, would still tip the scales offensively for me. Wagner's OBP that year was 107 points above league average while his slugging percentage was 224 points above league average. And despite ARod successfully stealing 9 bases out of 13 attempts, I'd still lean towards a league leading figure of 53 stolen bases (one of 5 stolen base crowns for Honus) as having the baserunning edge.

      As a 3B, I'd be inclined to take Mike Schmidt's 1981 season (if you allow strike-shortened seasons; I won't hold that against Mike) over ARod last year. Schmidt's OPS+ of 199 was a bit higher than ARod's 167. ARod had a basestealing advantage swiping 21 out of 27 bases compared to 12 out of 16 for Schmidt. But in the field, ARod's range factor was 1 point above league average (hey, at least that's better than being below average, right??) while Schmidt picked up one of his 10 Gold Gloves while posting a range factor that was 73 points above league average.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by blackout805




        1B - Foxx 38
        Foxx's 32 was his best season.
        "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

        "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by 538280
          Schmidt in '81 was better if you expand for the strike, and Al Rosen in 1953, Ron Santo in 1966, Frank Baker in 1912, Heinie Groh in 1917, Wade Boggs in 1986, Alex Rodriguez in 2005, and Brett himself in 1985 were probably better too.
          How is Schmidt's '81 better than Brett's '80 if you "expand for the strike"??? Schmidt only played 102 games in '81, and had a 195 OPS+, 8 points lower than Brett's 203 OPS+ in '80. Why should we give Schmidt more credit for a season that was even shorter than Brett's?

          You guys are saying Brett was less valuable that season because he missed alot of games due to injuries. I can't buy that, because he was VERY valuable in the games he did play, and the Royals likely wouldn't have gotten to the Series that year without him. Does anyone have the Royals' record in '80 in the games that Brett did not play?

          And he only missed 37 games. It's not like he missed most of the season.

          I don't see any of the seasons listed above being able to compete with Brett's '80 except maybe for Rosen's '53. Boggs '87 was much better than '86.
          Last edited by torez77; 02-18-2006, 04:07 PM.
          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by CTaka
            Wagner's 59 Win Shares in 1908 is the highest of any player at any position (other than 19th century pitchers) ever.

            The other minor point is that Wagner never played a game at SS in 1900.
            I already made the switch. Originally I was just blown away by his '00 stats being so much better on the surface.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by torez77
              How is Schmidt's '81 better than Brett's '80 if you "expand for the strike"??? Schmidt only played 102 games in '81, and had a 195 OPS+, 8 points lower than Brett's 203 OPS+ in '80. Why should we give Schmidt more credit for a season that was even shorter than Brett's?
              It was shorter because there was a strike in 1981. Expanding out for the full season, Schmidt would be more valuable. Schmidt would have played out the schedule in 1981, but he was prevented by labor disputes. He deserves credit for that IMO. It's just like war credit really. Brett didn't play as many games in 1980 because of injury. I don't give injury credit, and you shouldn't either.

              Plus, Schmidt was a much better fielder.

              You guys are saying Brett was less valuable that season because he missed alot of games due to injuries. I can't buy that, because he was VERY valuable in the games he did play, and the Royals likely wouldn't have gotten to the Series that year without him. Does anyone have the Royals' record in '80 in the games that Brett did not play?
              He was very valuable when he played, but he didn't get the total value because he missed the games. If the Royals were indeed horrible without Brett (don't know), then that is actually evidence Brett that year wasn't as valuable as you say he was, because if he was healthy they would have done well.

              And he only missed 37 games. It's not like he missed most of the season.
              37 games is 23% of the year. That's a big chunk.

              I don't see any of the seasons listed above being able to compete with Brett's '80 except maybe for Rosen's '53. Boggs '87 was much better than '86.
              If you're going by just how they did while playing then Boggs, A-Rod, Brett in '85 and Santo would drop out.

              Rosen's '53 certainly can compete, Schmidt's '81, Groh's '17 and Baker's '12 don't look so great but the spectrum jump is a huge thing. Particularly Groh was a much better fielder.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by 538280
                It was shorter because there was a strike in 1981. Expanding out for the full season, Schmidt would be more valuable. Schmidt would have played out the schedule in 1981, but he was prevented by labor disputes. He deserves credit for that IMO. It's just like war credit really. Brett didn't play as many games in 1980 because of injury. I don't give injury credit, and you shouldn't either.

                Plus, Schmidt was a much better fielder.
                Yes, I know there was a strike in '81. I put "expand for the strike" in quotes earlier because that logic doesn't seem fair - to expand Schmidt's season and assume he would've done just as well or better than Brett in '80. Labor disputes and injury, to me, are two things beyond a player's control. Injury is more geared to the player himself, of course, but still is a case of bad luck.

                He was very valuable when he played, but he didn't get the total value because he missed the games. If the Royals were indeed horrible without Brett (don't know), then that is actually evidence Brett that year wasn't as valuable as you say he was, because if he was healthy they would have done well.
                Well, looking it at that way, OK.....




                Rosen's '53 certainly can compete, Schmidt's '81, Groh's '17 and Baker's '12 don't look so great but the spectrum jump is a huge thing. Particularly Groh was a much better fielder.
                I'm not recognizing defense in these single seasons. This is really an offensive single season thread.
                Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Sam's Legends

                  1. Ty Cobb, 1915, CF
                  2. Rogers Hornsby, 1922, 2B
                  3. Barry Bonds, 2001, LF
                  4. Babe Ruth, 1921, RF
                  5. Lou Gehrig, 1927, 1B
                  6. Eddie Mathews, 1953, 3B
                  7. Mark McGwire, 1998, DH
                  8. Yogi Berra, 1950, C
                  9. Honus Wagner, 1900, SS

                  I1 Mike Schmidt, 1980, 3B
                  I2 Alex Rodriguez, 2001, SS
                  I3 Joe Morgan, 1976, 2B
                  I4 George Sisler, 1920 1B
                  O1 Hugh Duffy, 1894
                  O2 Hank Aaron, 1959
                  O3 Willie Mays, 1957
                  O4 Frank Robinson, 1966
                  C1 Mike Piazza, 1997
                  C2 Johnny Bench, 1970

                  SP1 Walter Johnson, 1913
                  SP2 Bob Gibson, 1968
                  SP3 Pedro Martinez, 2000
                  SP4 Tom Seaver, 1971
                  SP5 Greg Maddux, 1995
                  RP1 Rich Gossage, 1977
                  RP2 Bruce Sutter, 1977
                  RP3 Dennis Eckersley, 1990
                  RP4 Mariano Rivera, 2005
                  RP5 Eric Gagne, 2003
                  RP6 John Smoltz, 2003

                  Boy, this took me a while
                  46 wins to match last year's total

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan
                    Sam's Legends

                    1. Ty Cobb, 1915, CF
                    2. Rogers Hornsby, 1922, 2B
                    3. Barry Bonds, 2001, LF
                    4. Babe Ruth, 1921, RF
                    5. Lou Gehrig, 1927, 1B
                    6. Eddie Mathews, 1953, 3B
                    7. Mark McGwire, 1998, DH
                    8. Yogi Berra, 1950, C
                    9. Honus Wagner, 1900, SS

                    I1 Mike Schmidt, 1980, 3B
                    I2 Alex Rodriguez, 2001, SS
                    I3 Joe Morgan, 1976, 2B
                    I4 George Sisler, 1920 1B
                    O1 Hugh Duffy, 1894
                    O2 Hank Aaron, 1959
                    O3 Willie Mays, 1957
                    O4 Frank Robinson, 1966
                    C1 Mike Piazza, 1997
                    C2 Johnny Bench, 1970

                    SP1 Walter Johnson, 1913
                    SP2 Bob Gibson, 1968
                    SP3 Pedro Martinez, 2000
                    SP4 Tom Seaver, 1971
                    SP5 Greg Maddux, 1995
                    RP1 Rich Gossage, 1977
                    RP2 Bruce Sutter, 1977
                    RP3 Dennis Eckersley, 1990
                    RP4 Mariano Rivera, 2005
                    RP5 Eric Gagne, 2003
                    RP6 John Smoltz, 2003

                    Boy, this took me a while
                    I like it Braves Fan! Well thought out and nicely organized!
                    Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Deleted post
                      Last edited by torez77; 11-21-2006, 09:12 AM.
                      Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Deleted post
                        Last edited by torez77; 02-23-2006, 05:23 PM.
                        Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan
                          Sam's Legends


                          SP1 Walter Johnson, 1913
                          SP2 Bob Gibson, 1968
                          SP3 Pedro Martinez, 2000
                          SP4 Tom Seaver, 1971
                          SP5 Greg Maddux, 1995
                          RP1 Rich Gossage, 1977
                          RP2 Bruce Sutter, 1977
                          RP3 Dennis Eckersley, 1990
                          RP4 Mariano Rivera, 2005
                          RP5 Eric Gagne, 2003
                          RP6 John Smoltz, 2003

                          Boy, this took me a while
                          Nice list except Lefty Grove's 1931 has to be on that list.
                          "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                          "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            1b- Lou Gehrig, 1927 (his best year, even if overshadowed by the Sultan)
                            2b- Ross Barnes, 1876
                            ss- Honus Wagner 1908
                            3b- John McGraw, 1899 (one of the most underrated seasons ever- .391 average with a .547 OBP. In 117 games he walked 124 times and scored 140 runs with 73 steals. Arguably a better lead off man than Hamilton, may as well have them both.)
                            c- Mike Piazza, 1997
                            of- Ted Williams 1941, Babe Ruth 1920, Billy Hamilton 1894
                            dh- Pete Browning, 1882- best rookie season at the plate ever- forget Shoeless, the Louisville slugger blew them all away at 21.
                            sp- Hoss Radbourne 1884 (not so much for 59 wins, but for the two month stretch after his suspension when he went 30-2 with only two heartbreaking losses to Hall of Famers Tim Keefe and Mickey Welch- nobody's ever had a pitching streak like that, under any baseball rules, and Radbourne did it all out of spite for Charlie Sweeney. I love it)
                            sp- Pedro, 1999 (but he had several years it coulda been)
                            sp- Walter Johnson, 1913 (ditto)
                            sp- Lefty Grove, 1931
                            sp- Lefty Carlton, 1972
                            rp- Dick Radatz, 1963 or Jim Konstanty, 1950. (Radatz got his nickname "the Monster" that year after striking out Mantle, Maris, and Howard on 10 pitches. Mantle gave it to him. 63 was the first of his three straight years winning or saving over half of hopeless Boston's games. Konstanty well-deserved to be the first RP to win the MVP in '50, he pretty much forced the Phils to win the pennant, and his only start that year was the series opener versus the Yanks.)
                            "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
                              1b- Lou Gehrig, 1927 (his best year, even if overshadowed by the Sultan)
                              2b- Ross Barnes, 1876
                              ss- Honus Wagner 1908
                              3b- John McGraw, 1899 (one of the most underrated seasons ever- .391 average with a .547 OBP. In 117 games he walked 124 times and scored 140 runs with 73 steals. Arguably a better lead off man than Hamilton, may as well have them both.)
                              c- Mike Piazza, 1997
                              of- Ted Williams 1941, Babe Ruth 1920, Billy Hamilton 1894
                              dh- Pete Browning, 1882- best rookie season at the plate ever- forget Shoeless, the Louisville slugger blew them all away at 21.
                              sp- Hoss Radbourne 1884 (not so much for 59 wins, but for the two month stretch after his suspension when he went 30-2 with only two heartbreaking losses to Hall of Famers Tim Keefe and Mickey Welch- nobody's ever had a pitching streak like that, under any baseball rules, and Radbourne did it all out of spite for Charlie Sweeney. I love it)
                              sp- Pedro, 1999 (but he had several years it coulda been)
                              sp- Walter Johnson, 1913 (ditto)
                              sp- Lefty Grove, 1931
                              sp- Lefty Carlton, 1972
                              rp- Dick Radatz, 1963 or Jim Konstanty, 1950. (Radatz got his nickname "the Monster" that year after striking out Mantle, Maris, and Howard on 10 pitches. Mantle gave it to him. 63 was the first of his three straight years winning or saving over half of hopeless Boston's games. Konstanty well-deserved to be the first RP to win the MVP in '50, he pretty much forced the Phils to win the pennant, and his only start that year was the series opener versus the Yanks.)
                              You only have 5 of 12 players who played after 1931!!! You are skipping 70+ years of baseball, and I'm not so sure about the inclusion of 19th century players. If you want to use them, they probably should have their own list, due to the differences in the games.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by torez77
                                And he only missed 37 games. It's not like he missed most of the season.
                                Are you sure he didn't miss 45 games, and not 37? He played with a 162 game schedule, not 154, an easy mistake to make, but those 8 games are big, so he missed over a quarter of his season (28%), and you'd have to be crazy to say that's not a lot. Schmidt on the other hand, only missed 5 games in '81, playing in 95% of his teams games. If Brett had done what he did over a full season, then yes, that would be the best ever, but he didn't, he got injured. Schmidt on the other hand didn't get injured, and he would have continued to play wonderfully the whole season, and that's why he is ahead of Brett.


                                On a different note, I'd just like to say that Boggs has a few seasons that should at least be mentioned (they have a couple times, but they deserve more than that).

                                1988 - .366/.476/.490, 214 hits, 128 runs, 45 doubles, 125 BB, only 34 SO
                                1987 - .363/.461/.588, 200 hits, 40 doubles, 89 RBI (he hit leadoff!!!), 24 HR
                                1985 - .366/.450/.478, 240 hits, 42 doubles

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