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2017 BBF Top 100 Position Players #46-50

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  • #31
    46. Pete Rose
    47. Chipper Jones
    48. Ed Delahanty- my only vote for a 19th c. player because he played most of his career with "modern" rules
    49. Duke Snider- had an argument as best NL player 4 consecutive years
    50. Gary Carter- really good for more than a decade

    Coming up in no particular order- Cabrera, Greenberg, Campanella, ....

    Comment


    • #32
      1 Thomas
      2 C Jones
      3 Rose
      4 Cabrera
      5 Carew
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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      • #33
        1. Mike Trout
        2. Cristobel Torriente
        3. Chipper Jones
        4. Robin Yount
        5. Rod Carew
        ''A sport without black people ain't a sport. That's just a game!... That's like me saying, 'Ooh, I got the highest SAT score in the whole world, but no Asians took the test.' What kind of crap is that? 'I just won the marathon. No Kenyans could run, though!'''
        Chris Rock

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        • #34
          Mid-Week update

          Chipper - 37
          Rose - 28
          Carew - 20
          Carter - 20
          Delehanty - 17
          Connor-16
          Beltre - 16
          Miggy - 15
          Jeter -11
          Thomas - 10
          Trout - 10
          Manny - 9
          Joe Jackson -9
          Greenberg -8
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          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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          • #35
            I see Trout climbing to the low 60s. Over Manny, Jackson and Greenberg. I've seen everything.
            "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
            George Brett

            Comment


            • #36
              Carew was a fine player and a no brainer HOFer, but I don't see him being above some others who are garnering far fewer votes. He had limited power, didn't walk a lot. Extremely high BA created very good, not exceptional OBPs. He was a really good baserunner, but a mediocre second baseman. He did a pretty god job at first but I don't think he was exceptional there, plus he robbed the team of a potential power bat position. I put him with Gwyn, who I see around 60.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                Carew was a fine player and a no brainer HOFer, but I don't see him being above some others who are garnering far fewer votes. He had limited power, didn't walk a lot. Extremely high BA created very good, not exceptional OBPs. He was a really good baserunner, but a mediocre second baseman. He did a pretty god job at first but I don't think he was exceptional there, plus he robbed the team of a potential power bat position. I put him with Gwyn, who I see around 60.
                On the other hand Carew's OPS+ was almost identical to Morgan's, and he is very similar to Gehringer, Rose, and C. Jones in WAR. (depending on what site you use) Plus he was an 18 time all-star and 9 time MVP vote getter. IMO his career looks very impressive whether you're an advanced stats fan or traditional stats fan.
                Last edited by layson27; 07-19-2017, 07:16 AM.

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                • #38
                  Man, about this Trout fella much will be written by the time he retires in 2030 with many accolades to boot. This is his best case scenario. But many other players were sure things in the position but flamed. Three of those were Cesar Cedeno (Trout's 5 tool comp), Fred Lynn (accolades) and Andruw Jones (the phenom). Each had a drop off, Cedeno at his age 27, Lynn at his age 28 (kinda) and Jones at age 30. One was off field issues (Cedeno), other had injuries (Lynn) and the last one just forgot how to play (Jones). I took Trout's stats thru this season and added those players from their drop off and came up with 3 players:

                  1. Mike Cedeno: 61.5 WAR, 248 HRs, 330 Sbs, 1031 R, 1818 H, 915 RBis, .377 OBP, .490 SLG, 142 OPS+ (16 seasons)

                  2. Mike Lynn: 68.9 WAR, 366 HRs, 183 Sbs, 1176 R, 1992 H, 1123 RBis, .373 OBP, .505 SLG, 143 OPS+ (17 seasons)

                  3. Mike Jones: 55.3 WAR, 276 HRs, 173 Sbs, 878 R, 1353 H, 799 RBis, .375 OBP, .514 SLG, 141 OPS+ (13 seasons)

                  When compared to my CFs, all of those except for Mike Jones make the top 20, on the strength of WAR and rate stats. But nothing more. That's not an All Time great career in none of those cases. Question then, why should we give him due when he's not geven gotten there yet?
                  "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                  George Brett

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
                    Man, about this Trout fella much will be written by the time he retires in 2030 with many accolades to boot. This is his best case scenario. But many other players were sure things in the position but flamed. Three of those were Cesar Cedeno (Trout's 5 tool comp), Fred Lynn (accolades) and Andruw Jones (the phenom). Each had a drop off, Cedeno at his age 27, Lynn at his age 28 (kinda) and Jones at age 30. One was off field issues (Cedeno), other had injuries (Lynn) and the last one just forgot how to play (Jones). I took Trout's stats thru this season and added those players from their drop off and came up with 3 players:

                    1. Mike Cedeno: 61.5 WAR, 248 HRs, 330 Sbs, 1031 R, 1818 H, 915 RBis, .377 OBP, .490 SLG, 142 OPS+ (16 seasons)

                    2. Mike Lynn: 68.9 WAR, 366 HRs, 183 Sbs, 1176 R, 1992 H, 1123 RBis, .373 OBP, .505 SLG, 143 OPS+ (17 seasons)

                    3. Mike Jones: 55.3 WAR, 276 HRs, 173 Sbs, 878 R, 1353 H, 799 RBis, .375 OBP, .514 SLG, 141 OPS+ (13 seasons)

                    When compared to my CFs, all of those except for Mike Jones make the top 20, on the strength of WAR and rate stats. But nothing more. That's not an All Time great career in none of those cases. Question then, why should we give him due when he's not geven gotten there yet?
                    Cedeno 's early decline was mostly due to injuries. He missed a good part of 1978 and was really never the same player after that, except for a bounce back season in 1980.

                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by layson27 View Post

                      On the other hand Carew's OPS+ was almost identical to Morgan's, and he is very similar to Gehringer, Rose, and C. Jones in WAR. (depending on what site you use) Plus he was an 18 time all-star and 9 time MVP vote getter. IMO his career looks very impressive whether you're an advanced stats fan or traditional stats fan.
                      Rod was a solid baserunner, Morgan an all-time great, so raw OPS+ overstates the offensive gap some.

                      The hesitation I have with Carew is related to a point from Tom Thress website, under the section with Adam Dunn vs Mickey Rivers.
                      http://baseball.tomthress.com/Articles/eWORL_v_WAR.php

                      Carew's skills are concentrated in contact ability, which may or is overvalued by B-R, which has him at at 83 offensive wins, B-G at 74.
                      B-R, B-G, and T-T agree that Carew was a neutral fielder.

                      To offset, Rod was an excellent RE24/clutch guy, and is a bit of a rrOPS+ plus.
                      Last edited by Jar of Flies; 07-19-2017, 11:39 AM.
                      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                      http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                        Cedeno 's early decline was mostly due to injuries. He missed a good part of 1978 and was really never the same player after that, except for a bounce back season in 1980.
                        He had off-field issues, the accusation of manslaughter haunted his whole career and never allowed him to develop to the 1972-1973 levels.
                        "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                        George Brett

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          1) Frank Thomas
                          2) Chipper Jones
                          3) Mike Trout
                          4) Gary Carter
                          5) Sadaharu Oh

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                            Rod was a solid baserunner, Morgan an all-time great, so raw OPS+ overstates the offensive gap some.

                            The hesitation I have with Carew is related to a point from Tom Thress website, under the section with Adam Dunn vs Mickey Rivers.
                            http://baseball.tomthress.com/Articles/eWORL_v_WAR.php

                            Carew's skills are concentrated in contact ability, which may or is overvalued by B-R, which has him at at 83 offensive wins, B-G at 74.
                            B-R, B-G, and T-T agree that Carew was a neutral fielder.

                            To offset, Rod was an excellent RE24/clutch guy, and is a bit of a rrOPS+ plus.
                            While contact hitting may get overrated, Carew has better than normal splits with regard to situational hitting (similarly to Gwynn). Kind of odd considering that they didn't seem to produce a lot in the RS or RBI departments. Morgan has really bad situational splits, not with regard to leverage or clutch, but run opportunity. Basically Carew produced better rates in higher run opportunity situations (whether they were high leverage or close and late or not) and Morgan did worse. That's a big part of the reason why I have moved Morgan down to the 20-25 range from the teens over the years. Not sure where that leaves me with Carew, though I tend to feel that Alomar and Sandberg were better players. Carew, I think would have suffered in a higher offensive era, but most hitters were not taking optimal advantage of driving the ball and being pitch selective during that period.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by layson27 View Post

                              On the other hand Carew's OPS+ was almost identical to Morgan's, .
                              Yes, but Carew only played 1130 games at 2B. He played more at 1B, where he would not be a particularly great player with an OPS+ of 131. Morgan played over 2500 games at 2B.
                              .


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by brett View Post
                                1) Frank Thomas
                                2) Chipper Jones
                                3) Mike Trout
                                4) Gary Carter
                                5) Sadaharu Oh
                                You know -I have been coming down on Thomas.

                                He is at 74 WAR (or close in the other systems). okay - 50th or so seems somewhat reasonable. Most of the guys this high are higher than that, though just on the surface. So okay. I need to see that WAR is underrating him for me to feel comfortable putting him that high. But

                                1. Thomas benefited more than anyone with the DH rule. Because of the DH - he was able to "cap out" at -1.5 dWAR per season. If he had to field like most all of the 1B he is compared to - he would have lost another 8-10 WAR EASILY. Thomas looks better in WAR a DH than he would if he wasn't a DH - he was that abysmal defensively. That may be right in terms of correlating real runs to real teams - but it doesn't jive when using it to rank players.

                                2. Thomas under-performed in the postseason. I mean, he walked a lot, but that is about it.

                                3. Thomas as -90 runs according to WPA high vs. low leveraging. That is historically bad.

                                I'm just not seeing top-50 player. I have mega-amounts of respect for your opinions and would love to hear where you are coming from here. Maybe you are noticing something that I am not.
                                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

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                                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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