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This document was based on a similar policy used by SABR.

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Players overrated for their counting stats + BA?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post

    Well he was born there.
    Literally that made me laugh. Of course you are correct - but if I wanted to be a Sumo wrestler, I assume I'd have to move to Japan. Similarly, Ichiro if he wanted to be a legendary American baseball player, he could have moved here after high school/college.
    Billy Martin won division titles with 4 different franchises and has a higher w% than 19 managers that are in the HOF. But he ought to be there simply because he had to put up with the shenanigans of George Steinbrenner and Charlie Finley.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

      Why should that matter at all - it hasn't been used to help guys in the past like Sam Rice? It is the "National Baseball Hall of Fame." It makes no provisions for people of their own free will playing elsewhere. In my opinion, there should be no boost for beginning his MLB career at age 27.
      That's just silly. Ichiro had no path to the majors before 2001. Anyway, a smart voter would obviously see that Ichiro had major league talent years before 2001. My initial post was more about responding to the fact Ichiro only had 59.3 WAR. Well, duh, he had a short career. His WAR total is outstanding for someone with a short career.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

        That's just silly. Ichiro had no path to the majors before 2001. Anyway, a smart voter would obviously see that Ichiro had major league talent years before 2001. My initial post was more about responding to the fact Ichiro only had 59.3 WAR. Well, duh, he had a short career. His WAR total is outstanding for someone with a short career.
        Was he forced to play baseball in Japan after graduating High School? He could have tried to come over here and sign as a free agent. Highly unlikely, sure, but his choice. If his only goal in life was to make the United States National Baseball Hall of Fame, he could have taken that risk. If I wanted to be a yokozuna, I'd go to Japan.

        My buddy after his stint in the US Army Rangers wanted to go into Mixed Martial Arts in the 1990's. He felt that the USA wasn't the best scene at the time - so he went to Russia in the mid-1990's to learn fight better. That was a wild and wooly time to go to Russia - literally he compared it to the American West in the 1870's. If there is a will, there often is a way.

        Agree with the portion in red, that is a lot of WAR from 27 onwards.
        Billy Martin won division titles with 4 different franchises and has a higher w% than 19 managers that are in the HOF. But he ought to be there simply because he had to put up with the shenanigans of George Steinbrenner and Charlie Finley.

        Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for three days (baseball signatures only!)


        Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

          Was he forced to play baseball in Japan after graduating High School? He could have tried to come over here and sign as a free agent. Highly unlikely, sure, but his choice. If his only goal in life was to make the United States National Baseball Hall of Fame, he could have taken that risk. If I wanted to be a yokozuna, I'd go to Japan.

          My buddy after his stint in the US Army Rangers wanted to go into Mixed Martial Arts in the 1990's. He felt that the USA wasn't the best scene at the time - so he went to Russia in the mid-1990's to learn fight better. That was a wild and wooly time to go to Russia - literally he compared it to the American West in the 1870's. If there is a will, there often is a way.

          Agree with the portion in red, that is a lot of WAR from 27 onwards.
          Yes, he was. Through mutual agreement with the NPB, Major League teams are not allowed to scout or sign Japanese players. Have you never wondered why Japanese high schoolers are never signed by major league teams? If I were a HOF voter I would definitely take int account Ichiro's unusual background into consideration.
          Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 08-11-2017, 02:54 PM.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

            That's just silly. Ichiro had no path to the majors before 2001. Anyway, a smart voter would obviously see that Ichiro had major league talent years before 2001. My initial post was more about responding to the fact Ichiro only had 59.3 WAR. Well, duh, he had a short career. His WAR total is outstanding for someone with a short career.
            Ichiro started late in the major leagues he has not had a short career, he is in his 17th major league season. His WAR is decent, but his Wins Above Average(WAA) baseball-reference, is only 24.2
            Jackie Robinson, who did have a short career, 10 years, has a 61.5WAR and a 39.3WAA Larry Doby who played in parts of 13 seasons but only 10 full sesons had a 49.5WAR but a 30.6WAA
            Last edited by NJRob65; 08-11-2017, 03:34 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by NJRob65 View Post

              Ichiro started late in the major leagues he has not had a short career, he is in his 17th major league season. His WAR is decent, but his Wins Above Average(WAA) baseball-reference, is only 24.2
              Jackie Robinson, who did have a short career, 10 years, has a 61.5WAR and a 39.3WAA Larry Doby who played in parts of 13 seasons but only 10 full sesons had a 49.5WAR but a 30.6WAA
              Clearly Ichiro is overrated, but he's also going to easily get elected to the HOF.
              .


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              • #52
                Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                Clearly Ichiro is overrated, but he's also going to easily get elected to the HOF.
                On the first ballot IMO. And I'm not going to get too hot and bothered about it. This is a cliche but sometimes it fits ... it is what it is, you deal with it and move on.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by PRW View Post

                  On the first ballot IMO. And I'm not going to get too hot and bothered about it. This is a cliche but sometimes it fits ... it is what it is, you deal with it and move on.
                  Ichiro had 54 WAR and 30.5 WAA in his first 10 years. That is a clear and obvious HOF peak. And that includes zero credit at all for any play in Japan. He got old, played too long and lost 5-6 WAA. Don't really see how that does too much to take away from his qualifications.

                  He also has spectacular postseason numbers AND is +60 runs in high-leverage situations.

                  Not only is Ichiro going into the HOF - he deserves it.
                  Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-12-2017, 03:00 PM.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                    Clearly Ichiro is overrated, but he's also going to easily get elected to the HOF.
                    Absolutely, agree on both points.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                      Ichiro had 54 WAR and 30.5 WAA in his first 10 years. That is a clear and obvious HOF peak. And that includes zero credit at all for any play in Japan. He got old, played too long and lost 5-6 WAA. Don't really see how that does too much to take away from his qualifications.

                      He also has spectacular postseason numbers AND is +60 runs in high-leverage situations.

                      Not only is Ichiro going into the HOF - he deserves it.
                      YES he does!!
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                      • #56
                        I think Ichiro deserves it. He's also somewhat overrated. I don't think him being overrated and being a deserving Hall of Famer are mutually exclusive concepts. I wouldn't make him a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but my point was he's going to be one, so why worry about it?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by PRW View Post
                          I think Ichiro deserves it. He's also somewhat overrated. I don't think him being overrated and being a deserving Hall of Famer are mutually exclusive concepts. I wouldn't make him a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but my point was he's going to be one, so why worry about it?
                          Agreed on all points.
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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by NJRob65 View Post

                            Ichiro started late in the major leagues he has not had a short career, he is in his 17th major league season. His WAR is decent, but his Wins Above Average(WAA) baseball-reference, is only 24.2
                            Jackie Robinson, who did have a short career, 10 years, has a 61.5WAR and a 39.3WAA Larry Doby who played in parts of 13 seasons but only 10 full sesons had a 49.5WAR but a 30.6WAA
                            Kind of a silly comparison, since not many guys are going to put up much WAR or WAA after age 37. In fact, WAA often goes down in those years. Having the shorter careers are retiring young helps Jackie and Doby in this regard.

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                            • #59
                              I believe that someone who would pick a Bobby Abreu or a Bobby Gich for the HOF over guys like Ichiro or Vlad Guerrero kind of don't really get what the HOF is all about.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by willshad View Post

                                Kind of a silly comparison, since not many guys are going to put up much WAR or WAA after age 37. In fact, WAA often goes down in those years. Having the shorter careers are retiring young helps Jackie and Doby in this regard.
                                The reason I stated that was that a previous poster claimed that Ichiro had a relative low WAR total because he had a short career, Robinson had a shorter career and both more WAR & WAA, Doby had a shower career and more WAA.

                                I am well aware of the fact that as players they often post negative WAR & WAA, that doesn't negate the fact that the decline should be acknowledged and not ignored, as it too often is, espcially if a milestone is reached, 3000 hits, in the case of Ichiro & Craig Biggio for example, or the all time times record by Pete Rose.

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