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  • CTaka
    replied
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    Here we go it is on baseball Almanac (duh)

    Baker beat Collins for most times leading the league in chances

    http://baseball-almanac.com/rb_3bch.shtml

    and I think his other records that now mostly belong to Brooks Robinson

    Baker had 5631 TC
    2154 PO
    3155 Assists
    259 Dp
    .943 F%

    Collins had

    6646 TC
    2434 PO
    3734 A
    229 Dp
    .928 F%

    BUT

    Collins played RF in 1895 and some SS in between

    So taking away those he had 2366 PO and a little less Assists

    Bkaer played in 1548 games
    Collins played in 1725

    So it could be per game
    I don't believe this is correct.

    According to baseball-reference.com, Baker played 1,548 games at 3B with 2,154 putouts and 3,155 assists. Collins played 1,683 games at 3B (along with 28 games in the OF, 6 at SS, and 2 at 2B) and amassed 2,372 putouts and 3,702 assists as a 3B. For what it's worth, Brooks played 2,870 games at 3B with 2697 putouts and 6,205 assists. So on a per game basis:

    Baker: 1.39 putouts/game 2.04 assists/game
    Collins: 1.41 putouts/game 2.20 assists/game
    Brooks: 0.94 putouts/game 2.16 assists/game

    On a per game basis, both Baker and Robinson may have played after Collins but neither has surpassed him in the field using a putout or assists per game metric.

    In terms of Fielding Win Shares per 1000 innings, Baker had 4.71, Brooks had 4.24 (but over a much longer career) and Collins had 5.93.

    On baseball-prospectus, if you go by career fielding Rate 2, it is Baker at 103, Brooks at 106, and Collins at 110.

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  • Imapotato
    replied
    Here we go it is on baseball Almanac (duh)

    Baker beat Collins for most times leading the league in chances

    http://baseball-almanac.com/rb_3bch.shtml

    and I think his other records that now mostly belong to Brooks Robinson

    Baker had 5631 TC
    2154 PO
    3155 Assists
    259 Dp
    .943 F%

    Collins had

    6646 TC
    2434 PO
    3734 A
    229 Dp
    .928 F%

    BUT

    Collins played RF in 1895 and some SS in between

    So taking away those he had 2366 PO and a little less Assists

    Bkaer played in 1548 games
    Collins played in 1725

    So it could be per game
    Last edited by Imapotato; 02-19-2006, 10:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Imapotato
    replied
    Originally posted by yanks0714
    Tell us what you are reading in that Spaulding Guide that shows you Baker surpassed Collins' defense . It seems as though it is at odds with what most of us would think.

    No I think I read it on Baseball Library while doing my historical sims

    So it could be incorrect

    Can anyone find career defensive records by position?

    I will try

    Sorry, for throwing that out there without a link, I swore I read Baker passed Collins, and Traynor passed Baker

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by yanks0714
    Tell us what you are reading in that Spaulding Guide that shows you Baker surpassed Collins' defense . It seems as though it is at odds with what most of us would think.
    It is certainly. From everything I have ever read, Collins was considered to be the far better fielder. Stats have confirmed this.

    Actually, Collins was often named to many people's All Time Teams after Baker's career had alredy ended. Baker was rarely named to anyone's all time team. Baker was obviously a better hitter than Collins and he had a better peak. Clearly those who chose Collins over Baker thought that Jimmy was the far superior fielder.

    And sorry to echo everyone else, but Baker did not surpass Collins in any defensive category that I know of. I have never seen a fielding metric that shows Baker as better, Collins had more PO, and more assists. His fielding percentage was slightly lower, but that has everything to do with the era in which they played (gloves were more advanced when Baker came along). Collins does better in FP compared to league.

    Leave a comment:


  • yanks0714
    replied
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    As for Baker's biography, it is the opposite of what the Spaulding Guide says

    Plus Collins career defensive records were surpassed by Baker
    Tell us what you are reading in that Spaulding Guide that shows you Baker surpassed Collins' defense . It seems as though it is at odds with what most of us would think.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTaka
    replied
    Plus Collins career defensive records were surpassed by Baker

    [/QUOTE]

    This doesn't make any sense to me. Collins had more career putouts and assists than Baker. Collins' career fielding percentage is 22 points above league average compared to 6 points for Baker.

    Which of Collins' career defensive records are you claiming were surpassed by Baker?

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  • baseballPAP
    replied
    I have Collins in at #7 among thirdbasemen, right behind Baker. Baker had more power, while both had bad ends to their careers. If you use RCAP however, Baker just kills Collins. Admittedly it isn't the best stat, but the difference there is staggering, 364 to 148!

    Also an interesting note....Baker took over for Collins, and actually rode the bench behind him for Jimmy's last year in 1908!

    Leave a comment:


  • Wee Willie
    replied
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    Well in Traynor's time, the ball was also wound tighter and never mushy...so that could be a point in his favor
    I wouldn't necessarily call that in Traynor's favor. The ball was more lopsided in Collins' time, plus gloves were a little more crudely constructed.

    Plus Collins career defensive records were surpassed by Baker
    Not sure why you say that. Collins has more career PO and A, and has a higher RF. Baker does have a higher FP, but Collins has a higher FP and RF relative to his league than Baker.

    Leave a comment:


  • Imapotato
    replied
    Well in Traynor's time, the ball was also wound tighter and never mushy...so that could be a point in his favor

    As for Baker's biography, it is the opposite of what the Spaulding Guide says

    Plus Collins career defensive records were surpassed by Baker

    They called it the 100,000 IF because of offense and defense, his Range Factor was well above the norm

    and a sidenote, Baker was the nemisis of Walter Johnson, who called Baker, the most dangerous man I ever faced, Baker was the sole recepient of the only Beanball that Big Train ever threw. Baker also hit the 1st over the wall HR Johnson ever gave up

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    I am going off Al Spaulding's guide and the career records for defense (TC, PO, A)

    You can look up some of the Al Spaulding guides at the Library of COngress, they do have Baker surpassing Collins as the defensive 3rd baseman of all time, these are men that watched these individuals play
    Really? From what I understand Baker wasn't really thought of as that great a third baseman, and that is why people always used to pick Traynor over him on their all time teams. Bill Burgess ranks Baker something like 15th among 3B, because he says he is a "clumsy fielder".

    Using traditional or sabermetric stats, Baker is quite clearly the better hitter than Traynor. You'd think if they believed Baker to be the superior fielder as well they'd put him on their all time teams.

    Collins is really better than Traynor, of course. If just feel the numerous historians who always put him ahead 1.Had never seen Collins play, while they had seen Traynor, and 2.Weren't putting their offensive performance in the correct context. Traynor's raw hitting stats look better but he was playing in and era where home run hitting did exist and the league BA was around .300.

    Leave a comment:


  • yanks0714
    replied
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    I am going off Al Spaulding's guide and the career records for defense (TC, PO, A)

    You can look up some of the Al Spaulding guides at the Library of COngress, they do have Baker surpassing Collins as the defensive 3rd baseman of all time, these are men that watched these individuals play
    Actually in Baker's biography, written by Sparks, states flat out that he was not as good as Jimmy Collins by the men who saw then both play.

    Collins was smooth, outstanding on fielding bunts, and pretty much laid the foundation for how 3B was to be played. Baker was described as "clumsy" although he was very competant in playing the position. Baker was also described as 'spike shy' at 3B ever since Cobb had badly spiked him early in his career.

    Leave a comment:


  • Imapotato
    replied
    I am going off Al Spaulding's guide and the career records for defense (TC, PO, A)

    You can look up some of the Al Spaulding guides at the Library of COngress, they do have Baker surpassing Collins as the defensive 3rd baseman of all time, these are men that watched these individuals play

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by CTaka
    I don't agree with this. Defensively, you could make an argument that Baker, Traynor, or even Brooks ever surpassed Collins in the field.
    They'd be pretty poor arguments for Baker & Traynor
    Baker 103 adjusted production rate, 240 adjusted fielding runs above replacement, 42 adjusteed fielding runs above average

    Traynor 106 APR, 343 AFRAR, 102 AFRAA

    Collins 110 APR, 390 AFRAR, 172 AFRAA

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    One player who I've often heard Collins compared to is Pie Traynor. I think that comparison sells Jimmy way short.

    I understand Traynor's leagues were stronger, but Collins was still the much better hitter. Collins played fully before the spectrum jump when 3B was certainly a defense first position. Traynor played part of his career when the spectrum was starting to jump. So, Collins' offensive numbers deserve a bigger boost. Still, though, even with no boost Collins was better. Relative numbers look like this:

    .............BA......OBP....SLG
    Collins....105.....101.....111
    Traynor..108.....103.....105

    Pretty close. But, Collins had two factors really hurting him. First, he was a player manager in his prime years. When he was supposed to be at his hitting peak his numbers were being suppressed. I sometimes think this is way overblown, but I don't doubt it is a real factor.

    Second, Collins played in a really tough hitting park, especially for home runs, but it still did hurt contact hitting as well. Collins' once league lead in home runs and seven top 10 finishes is VERY impressive really given the park he played in. Traynor's home park, Forbes Field, hurt his power but really helped his BA.

    Plus, Collins had better peak hitting seasons. Look at their top 5 OPS+ years:

    Collins-142*, 140, 126, 126, 123
    Traynor-125, 124, 118, 114, 113

    The asterisked season in Collins' 1901 campaign, when the American league was an expansion league. But, I think it is pretty legitimate, because Collins was a great player before and after that season, and it was his first year of being a player manager, so it may have had a bigger influence on his offense.

    Looking at Collins' 1898 year, it was very impressive. From a defense first position he hit .328 (7th in the league), was 5th in hits, 2nd in slugging percentage, led the league in total bases and home runs, and was 2nd in RBI. Altogether, he created more runs than any other hitter in the league, from a defensive position (not to mention he fielded it better than anyone in history according to Win Shares). How many other players have done that? Joe Morgan did, I don't know of anyone else.

    In the field, Traynor did have the great rep, but Collins' was just as good. Collins also had the innovation of charging bunts. Statistical measures have shown Traynor to be more solid than great, while stats have shown Collins to be one of the true greats from his position. He rates highest I believe (him or Lave Cross) in Defensive Win Shares per 1000 innings among 3B.

    Leave a comment:


  • SABR Matt
    replied
    I have Collins behind only Brooks Robinson defensively...and Collins scores wins at a higher rate than Robinson does...he just didn't last as long.

    Leave a comment:

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