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Renewed Top Ten by Position Project

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  • #16
    It really isn't a controversial position imo. There are just too many unknown variables.

    How many games they played per season, against whom, and were accurate records even kept. All the stats and write-ups in the world won't get us an inch closer to accurately being able to compare them with big leaguers, because the baseline is flawed.

    They can only be compared to eachother imo and even THAT has issues and unknown factors to consider.

    It is no knock on them.
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
      It really isn't a controversial position imo. There are just too many unknown variables.

      How many games they played per season, against whom, and were accurate records even kept. All the stats and write-ups in the world won't get us an inch closer to accurately being able to compare them with big leaguers, because the baseline is flawed.

      They can only be compared to each other imo and even THAT has issues and unknown factors to consider.

      It is no knock on them.
      Do you feel you can more accurately assess guys who played in the 1870s and 1880s?

      .


      19th Century League Champion
      1900s League Champion
      1910s League Champion

      1930s League Division Winner
      1950s League Champion
      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
      1960s League Division Winner
      1970s League Champion
      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
      1980s League Champion
      All Time Greats League Champion

      Comment


      • #18
        Well, what I like about BBF is this is a place where I am finding a lot of information, facts and opinions of people who I consider experts in baseball history. I may not agree with everything I see posted but I respect everything I read here because it gives me an opportunity to see how others perceive the different aspects of baseball history. I like researching many aspects of the game albeit mostly from a statistical perspective. I have focused my latest energies on baseball's Major League pre-history and finding my own methods while utilizing some or many of the Sabermetric tools. I also have been studying some of the Negro League and pre-Negro League history but consider myself a novice compared to several of the other posters. I have done some research into the Cuban Baseball history but even though I have collected some statistics of the Japan and Korea baseball history, I am very weak in this area. My weakest knowledge would be any other International baseball other than what I have mentioned above.

        The data that has been compiled for the Negro and Cuban baseball at Seamheads is phenominal. They have included data from games they have found against Major League players, High Minor League players, etc., I use much of the information to assist me with evaluating the Negro and Cuban baseball play comparing to Major League play. I don't know what the best way to evaluate players from different eras, or segregation ball or international ball but I have my own methodology and I am constantly evaluating my methods and improving on them for my satisfaction.

        What I haven't done a lot over the years but have wanted to only to find myself slipping off into another path of research, is sit down and rank the players historically using my methodology. Time tends to be my issue. Occasionally I will start by taking a handful of players and seeing how they compare to each other but have yet to sit down and decide who I truly would consider the greatest of all-time overall or even by position.

        What I am trying to say is that I am open to including all that is mentioned so I can selfishly learn from all of you.
        Last edited by SWCBaseball; 10-09-2018, 06:05 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          If someone doesn't want to vote for non-N.L./A.L. players they don't have to.
          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

            Do you feel you can more accurately assess guys who played in the 1870s and 1880s?
            Well all things record keeping was stil miles beyond what we have of NGlers.

            Comparing them.to eachother, easier. Comparing to more modern day, not so much. Issues sy
            till exist.
            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

              Well all things record keeping was stil miles beyond what we have of NGlers.

              Comparing them.to eachother, easier. Comparing to more modern day, not so much. Issues sy
              till exist.
              Have you gone through the Seamheads Negro League stats?

              .


              19th Century League Champion
              1900s League Champion
              1910s League Champion

              1930s League Division Winner
              1950s League Champion
              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
              1960s League Division Winner
              1970s League Champion
              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
              1980s League Champion
              All Time Greats League Champion

              Comment


              • #22
                I would love to see some site the has Negro League leader boards.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                  I would love to see some site the has Negro League leader boards.
                  Here you go.

                  http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/hi...=100&sort=HR_a

                  Click on the stat that you want to see the leaders for.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                    I'm in Bluesky. Perhaps a top 20 or 30 for starting pitchers?
                    I'd do 10-15 righty and lefty separately
                    27 World Championships
                    22 retired numbers
                    Isn't it great to be a Yankee fan?
                    Baseball was, is, and always will be to me the best sport-Babe Ruth

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                      Here you go.

                      http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/hi...=100&sort=HR_a

                      Click on the stat that you want to see the leaders for.
                      Thanks! If individual player's pages could show when they led the league or were in the Top 10 in stats, that would be even more helpful.

                      I wish BBG and BBR could be more comparable with their Negro League stats. BBG seems to have fuller seasons and stats. Can I assume that BBG has more historically reliable stats? Years ago, I had used BBR to compare Negro Leaguers to MLB players, but now I wonder in BBG would be the way to go.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        For you guys who don't want to rate Negro Leaguers. There are only a small number of players who would be in the running for top 10 at a position.

                        C - Josh Gibson
                        1B - Mule Suttles, Buck Leonard
                        SS - Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
                        CF - Oscar Charleston, Turkey Stearns, Cristobal Torriente
                        P - Satchel Paige, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Rogan, Martin Dihigo


                        .


                        19th Century League Champion
                        1900s League Champion
                        1910s League Champion

                        1930s League Division Winner
                        1950s League Champion
                        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                        1960s League Division Winner
                        1970s League Champion
                        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                        1980s League Champion
                        All Time Greats League Champion

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                          For you guys who don't want to rate Negro Leaguers. There are only a small number of players who would be in the running for top 10 at a position.

                          C - Josh Gibson
                          1B - Mule Suttles, Buck Leonard
                          SS - Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
                          CF - Oscar Charleston, Turkey Stearns, Cristobal Torriente
                          P - Satchel Paige, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Rogan, Martin Dihigo

                          There's an argument for Jud Wilson at 3B, depending on how you see his glove.
                          Since its that time of year
                          Do they still play the blues in Chicago, when baseball season rolls around?
                          When the snow melts away, do the Chi-Sox still play, in horribly named burial ground?


                          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                          Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                          Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'll do it, but I won't rank any current guys under age 30. You just don't know how they will end up historically speaking.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'll try to put together and post the first round tonight.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You could have people who list Negro Leaguers to also post a list of MLB only players as well. Hopefully that wouldn't be too much of a burden on people. We'd get a more accurate ranking for the Negro Leaguers in one of the total rankings that way.

                                Comment

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