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Roberto Clemente General Thread

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  • Roberto Clemente General Thread

    I couldn't find a Roberto Clemente general thread so here it is. Today Google honors Clemente!


    Clemente Google.jpg
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    I saw this and I couldn't figure out what significance Oct 12 had for Clemente

    Comment


    • #3
      I was wondering the same thing. October 12 is not his date of birth nor the date of his death nor the date of his major league debut nor the date of his final game. October 12 is the date of the Pirates World Series game 3 victory in 1971. But Clemente only went 1 for 4 with 1 RBI in that game.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • #4
        Despite the reverence for Roberto, I think that he's a bit overrated. He didn't have great power, didn't have a high OBP, his counting numbers aren't great, and his durability was average. He is not in the Mays/Aaron/ F Robinson class of player and those were his contemporaries. Certainly he was a great talent and had a marvelous 1971 World Series.

        btw, I was at the game, when his line drive broke Bob Gibson's leg in 1967.
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
          Despite the reverence for Roberto, I think that he's a bit overrated. He didn't have great power, didn't have a high OBP, his counting numbers aren't great, and his durability was average. He is not in the Mays/Aaron/ F Robinson class of player and those were his contemporaries. Certainly he was a great talent and had a marvelous 1971 World Series.

          btw, I was at the game, when his line drive broke Bob Gibson's leg in 1967.
          I haven't seen anyone here put Clemente in the Mays/Aaron/Robinson class of player.

          That said, an all-time great defensive player with 4 batting titles and 3,000 hits is a pretty special and unique player.

          A 130 OPS+ with over 10,000 PA's is very strong, though obviously not in the same class as the three aforementioned sluggers, and he's 25th all time in WAA.

          He's a top 5 Right Fielder IMO.
          Last edited by GiambiJuice; 10-12-2018, 12:48 PM.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
            his counting numbers aren't great,
            "Aren't great" is subjective, I suppose.

            At the time of his death, he was :

            6th in IBB
            11th in Hits
            15th in Singles
            18th in WAR
            ------------------
            25th in Total Bases
            27th in Triples
            28th on oWAR

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dgarza View Post
              "Aren't great" is subjective, I suppose.

              At the time of his death, he was :

              18th in WAR
              Sounded a little high to me so I checked it.

              He was 18th among position players in Baseball Gauge WAR and in B-Ref WAR when he died.
              .
              Here's B-Ref:
              .
              .
              1 Babe Ruth 1914 - 1935 22 RF 10616 1221.1 182.5 164.3 7.8 20.4 -10.1
              2 Willie Mays 1951 - 1972 21 CF 12254 156.4 138.2 19.5 0.0 -1.3
              3 Ty Cobb 1905 - 1928 24 CF 13072 5.0 151.1 161.8 -0.2 0.1 -10.6
              4 Hank Aaron 1954 - 1972 19 RF 12242 135.8 137.2 11.0 0.0 -12.4
              5 Tris Speaker 1907 - 1928 22 CF 11988 1.0 134.1 131.6 9.9 -0.1 -7.4
              6 Honus Wagner 1897 - 1917 21 SS 11739 8.1 130.8 109.6 7.6 -0.0 13.7
              7 Stan Musial 1941 - 1963 22 LF 12712 0.0 128.2 137.4 3.3 0.0 -12.5
              8 Rogers Hornsby 1915 - 1937 23 2B 9475 127.0 113.1 5.2 0.0 8.7
              9 Eddie Collins 1906 - 1930 25 2B 12037 124.0 115.8 4.1 0.0 4.1
              10 Ted Williams 1939 - 1960 19 LF 9791 2.0 123.1 136.4 -3.4 0.0 -10.0
              11 Lou Gehrig 1923 - 1939 17 1B 9660 112.4 121.4 0.1 0.0 -9.1
              12 Mickey Mantle 1951 - 1968 18 CF 9909 110.3 119.9 -6.1 0.0 -3.6
              13 Mel Ott 1926 - 1947 22 RF 11337 107.8 113.8 4.1 0.0 -10.1
              14 Nap Lajoie 1896 - 1916 21 2B 10460 107.4 97.3 9.1 0.0 1.0
              15 Frank Robinson 1956 - 1972 17 RF 10306 98.2 109.7 0.4 0.0 -11.9
              16 Jimmie Foxx 1925 - 1945 20 1B 9670 23.2 97.0 101.6 2.0 0.9 -7.5
              17 Eddie Mathews 1952 - 1968 17 3B 10101 96.6 91.0 2.4 0.0 3.2
              18 Roberto Clemente 1955 - 1972 18 RF 10212 94.5 82.3 23.3 0.0 -11.1
              19 Cap Anson 1871 - 1897 27 1B 11319 4.0 94.1 89.3 2.6 -0.1 2.3
              20 Al Kaline 1953 - 1972 20 RF 10620 91.3 86.7 14.5 0.0 -9.9
              21 George Davis 1890 - 1909 20 SS 10151 4.0 84.3 60.7 13.9 -0.4 10.1
              22 Roger Connor 1880 - 1897 18 1B 8837 84.3 78.0 4.9 0.0 1.4
              23 Charlie Gehringer 1924 - 1942 19 2B 10237 80.7 70.0 3.0 0.0 7.7
              24 Dan Brouthers 1879 - 1904 19 1B 7658 23.0 78.7 81.5 -2.7 -1.1 0.9
              25 Joe DiMaggio 1936 - 1951 13 CF 7671 78.1 74.9 4.7 0.0 -1.5
              .


              19th Century League Champion
              1900s League Champion
              1910s League Champion

              1930s League Division Winner
              1950s League Champion
              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
              1960s League Division Winner
              1970s League Champion
              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
              1980s League Champion
              All Time Greats League Champion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                Despite the reverence for Roberto, I think that he's a bit overrated. He didn't have great power, didn't have a high OBP, his counting numbers aren't great, and his durability was average. He is not in the Mays/Aaron/ F Robinson class of player and those were his contemporaries. Certainly he was a great talent and had a marvelous 1971 World Series.

                btw, I was at the game, when his line drive broke Bob Gibson's leg in 1967.
                I see him as a Vlad Guerrero minus the home run power. A great player, but idk if he makes my top 10 right fielders.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would rate Kaline over Clemente
                  This week's Giant

                  #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                    "Aren't great" is subjective, I suppose.

                    At the time of his death, he was :

                    6th in IBB
                    11th in Hits
                    15th in Singles
                    18th in WAR
                    ------------------
                    25th in Total Bases
                    27th in Triples
                    28th on oWAR
                    Yes, but he is revered , like he is an super all time great. His status as a god doesn't watch his performance
                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                      Yes, but he is revered , like he is an super all time great. His status as a god doesn't watch his performance
                      The Janis Joplin Syndrome. People tend to get overrated when they die young.
                      .


                      19th Century League Champion
                      1900s League Champion
                      1910s League Champion

                      1930s League Division Winner
                      1950s League Champion
                      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                      1960s League Division Winner
                      1970s League Champion
                      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                      1980s League Champion
                      All Time Greats League Champion

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                        Yes, but he is revered , like he is an super all time great. His status as a god doesn't watch his performance
                        Any reverence is referring to his total package as a human being. If people want to see him that way as a person, fine, so be it. But I have not really seen anybody refer to his baseball performance overall in isolation as god like. Maybe his defense, yes, I have seen people refer to that as all time great. (Perhaps your experience is different. )

                        It's easy to confuse what people are seeing when they talk about someone like Clemente. And it's easy to confuse what one is saying when one talks about someone like Clemente. It's best to understand it and/or talk about it in context.

                        His status "as a god", as you put it, doesn't have to match his baseball performance because it's not all about his baseball performance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dgarza View Post

                          Any reverence is referring to his total package as a human being. If people want to see him that way as a person, fine, so be it. But I have not really seen anybody refer to his baseball performance overall in isolation as god like. Maybe his defense, yes, I have seen people refer to that as all time great. (Perhaps your experience is different. )

                          It's easy to confuse what people are seeing when they talk about someone like Clemente. And it's easy to confuse what one is saying when one talks about someone like Clemente. It's best to understand it and/or talk about it in context.

                          His status "as a god", as you put it, doesn't have to match his baseball performance because it's not all about his baseball performance.
                          You posted what I was about to say. Clemente's "god" status is due to:

                          1) Being the first Latino super star. Latino ballplayers view Clemente as their Jackie Robinson.
                          2) How he died, flying emergency supplies to earthquake victims.
                          3) His 1971 World Series performance
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've always found it utterly amazing that he got EXACTLY 3000 hits, and then died, so that he could never get one single more. Its almost like something you'd see in a movie. I think that has added to his myth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The yellow bridge behind PNC Park is the Roberto Clemente Bridge. Not too many ball players with such a landmark named after them. It's a very prominent landmark. More so than any building in Pittsburgh in my opinion.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment

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