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Top Ten by Position Round One: Catchers

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  • Top Ten by Position Round One: Catchers

    As many regulars on here know, Tyrus4189Cobb cranked out this perennial project to see where we stand on the top ten players ranked by order of position. The first eight rounds are designed for the position players. The ninth and tenth rounds concern starting and relief pitchers, respectively, with the former being ranked 1-15. When considering a player, please consider their career accomplishments and not just their performance at their primary position or in only the National & American Leagues.

    Each player is eligible for only one round. Furthermore, there is no DH round, so such players are eligible for the positions in which they've fielded the most frequently. Thus, the following multi-positional players are considered for these listed positions:

    Catcher:
    Cal McVey (1B)
    Gene Tenace (1B)
    Joe Torre (1B/3B)
    Deacon White (3B/RF)


    First Base:
    Miguel Cabrera (3B)
    Harmon Killebrew (3B/LF)
    David Ortiz (DH)
    Frank Thomas (DH)


    Second Base:
    Rod Carew (1B)
    Martín Dihigo (P/SS/OF)
    Home Run Johnson (SS/P)


    Shortstop:
    Ernie Banks (1B)
    Alex Rodriguez (3B)
    John Montgomery Ward (P/2B/CF)
    Robin Yount (CF)


    Third Base:
    Dick Allen (1B)
    John Beckwith (SS/1B)
    Edgar Martinez (DH)
    Paul Molitor (DH/2B)
    Jud Wilson (1B)


    Left Field:
    Lance Berkman (1B/RF)
    Pete Hill (CF)
    Stan Musial (1B/RF)
    Pete Rose (2B/3B/RF/1B)
    Willie Stargell (1B)
    Turkey Stearnes (CF)


    Center Field:
    Oscar Charleston (1B)
    Andre Dawson (RF)
    Cristóbal Torriente (LF)


    Right Field:
    Shoeless Joe Jackson (LF)
    Babe Ruth (LF)


    Round one is dedicated to catchers. Previous results:

    Key to Table:
    Gold- Primarily played in the Negro Leagues.
    Red- Primarily played in the 19th century.
    *- Active the year of the project.

    Code:
    2004 (leecemark)         2006 (538280)         2007 (Bill Burgess)    2008 (leecemark)
    1 Johnny Bench (158)     Johnny Bench (183)    Johnny Bench (141)     Johnny Bench (233)
    2 Yogi Berra (151)       Yogi Berra (131)      Yogi Berra (124)       Yogi Berra (215)
    3 Mickey Cochrane (135)  Josh Gibson (106)     Mickey Cochrane (93)   Mile Piazza (211)
    4 Josh Gibson (93)       Mike Piazza (87)*     Josh Gibson (86)       Mickey Cochrane (192)
    5 Roy Campanella (73)    Mickey Cochrane (84)  Mike Piazza (84)*      Gary Carter (159)
    6 Gabby Hartnett (71)    Roy Campanella (67)   Gary Carter (50)       Roy Campanella (159)
    7 Bill Dickey (67)       Ivan Rodriguez (63)*  Ivan Rodriguez (50)*   Carlton Fisk (158)
    8 Ivan Rodriguez (63)*   Bill Dickey (50)      Carlton Fisk (43)      Bill Dickey (152)
    9 Mike Piazza (56)*      Gary Carter (35)      Bill Dickey (41)       Pudge Rodriguez (148)*
    10 Carlton Fisk (35)     Carlton Fisk (31)     Roy Campanella (31)    Gabby Hartnett (141)
    Tyrus4189Cobb's polls:
    Code:
    2008                2009                  2010
    1 J. Gibson (132)   Y. Berra (107)        Bench (154)
    2 J. Bench (123)    J. Bench (102)        Berra (136)
    3 Y. Berra (105)    J. Gibson (94)        Cochrane (96)
    4 M. Piazza (86)    M. Piazza (59)        Piazza (82)
    5 M. Cochrane (73)  M. Cochrane (55)      Gibson (80)
    6 G. Carter (48)    R.Campanella (44)     Fisk (62)
    7 I-Rod (40)*       C. Fisk (41)          Campanella (54)
    8 B. Ewing (36)     B. Ewing (37)         Hartnett (47)
    9 C. Fisk (33)      G. Carter (34)        Dickey (45)
    10 G. Hartnett (29) B. Dickey (24)        Rodriguez (27)*
    Code:
    2011              2012              2013              
    1 Bench (167)     Bench (139)       Bench (200)    
    2 Berra (149)     Berra (124)       Berra (165)      
    3 Gibson (119)    Piazza (95)       Piazza (150)    
    4 Piazza (103)    Cochrane (90)     Carter (107)    
    5 Cochrane (86)   Campanella (71)   Fisk (90)        
    6 Rodriguez (77)* Rodriguez (68)    Cochrane (88)  
    7 Carter (73)     Carter (66)       Rodriguez (87)  
    8 Fisk (65)       Fisk (56)         Campanella (83)  
    9 Campanella (58) Dickey (56)       Dickey (47)  
    10 Dickey (28)    Hartnett (45)     Ewing (37)
    Code:
    2014              2015            2016              
    1 Bench (224)     Bench (187)     Bench (155)        
    2 Berra (186)     Piazza (154)    Berra (133)        
    3 Piazza (172)    Berra (147)     Piazza (131)      
    4 Carter (152)    Carter (105)    Carter (92)  
    5 Rodriguez (97)  Cochrane (84)   I-Rod (66)  
    6 Cochrane (95)   Fisk (81)       Fisk (64)      
    7 Fisk (94)       Campanella (76) Campanella (62)    
    8 Dickey (77)     Rodriguez (69)  Cochrane (61)      
    9 Campanella (74) Dickey (64)     Dickey (54)    
    10 Hartnett (41)  Hartnett (28)   Hartnett (34)
    Last edited by bluesky5; 10-27-2018, 06:39 AM.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

  • #2
    1. Johnny Bench: Great athlete, closest thing to a 5 tool catcher.
    2. Josh Gibson: Tons of power and hitting from a catcher. Has some intangible issues. Top 3 NeL player.
    3. Mike Piazza: Not the best defensive catcher but his bat blows everyone out of the water.
    4. Roy Campanella: A regular catcher for Baltimore Elite Giants at 17. He was mentored by HoFer Biz Mackey. 3x N.L. MVP
    5. Pudge Rodriguez: Considered one of the best defensive catcher ever. 2844 hits, .296 average, almost 600 doubles, 311 HR, 13x GG, 7x SS, 14x AS.
    6. Yogi Berra: 3x MVP and the leader of the 1950's Yankees. Most consistent offensive catcher, above average glove and a great baseball mind.
    7. Gary Carter: Consistently above average offensive production. Excellent, durable defensive catcher.
    8. Mickey Cochrane: Helluva hitter (good eye), defensive catcher, leader and manager. Beaning cut his career short.
    9. Buck Ewing: What he did as a catcher offensively and in regards to durability in 19th c. conditions is unbelievable. Played the corners too.
    10. Gabby Hartnett: Excellent defensive catcher, did everything well behind the plate and had a big arm. Professional hitter. Did okay in a brief managerial stint. Rallied the Cubs, taking the helm halfway through the season, in '38 and sent them to the World Series with the "homer in the gloamin'".
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

    Comment


    • #3
      1 - Josh Gibson
      2 - Johnny Bench
      3 - Yogi Berra
      4 - Mickey Cochrane
      5 - Mike Piazza
      6 - Roy Campanella
      7 - Buck Ewing
      8 - Bill Dickey
      9 - Gary Carter
      10 - Gabby Hartnett
      .


      19th Century League Champion
      1900s League Champion
      1910s League Champion

      1930s League Division Winner
      1950s League Champion
      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
      1960s League Division Winner
      1970s League Champion
      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
      1980s League Champion
      All Time Greats League Champion

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
        Each player is eligible for only one round. Furthermore, there is no DH round,
        I'm not gonna start the Musial debate again, but why no DH round? The DH has been here now for 45 years, and certain guys (Ortiz, Molitor, Edgar, McRae) are clearly DH's rather than players at other positions.
        .


        19th Century League Champion
        1900s League Champion
        1910s League Champion

        1930s League Division Winner
        1950s League Champion
        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
        1960s League Division Winner
        1970s League Champion
        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
        1980s League Champion
        All Time Greats League Champion

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Bench
          2. Gibson
          3. Piazza
          4. Berra
          5. Carter
          6. Fisk
          7. Rodriguez
          8. Campanella
          9. Cochrane
          10. Dickey

          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

          Comment


          • #6
            1. Johnny Bench
            2. Michey Cochrane
            3. Buck Ewing
            4. Wally Schang
            5. Josh Gibson
            6. Charlie Bennett
            7. Ivan Rodriguez
            8. Gary Carter
            9. Roy Campanella
            10. Yogi Berra

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post
              4. Wally Schang
              6. Charlie Bennett
              Some odd picks, and no Piazza at all.
              .


              19th Century League Champion
              1900s League Champion
              1910s League Champion

              1930s League Division Winner
              1950s League Champion
              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
              1960s League Division Winner
              1970s League Champion
              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
              1980s League Champion
              All Time Greats League Champion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                Some odd picks, and no Piazza at all.
                From 1920 to 1931, Wally Schang threw out 408 would be base stealers out of 913. That is 45%. From 1921 to 1931, he picked off 30 runners. In 32 World Series games there were 21 SB against him, he thew out 21 runners and picked off 1 more. He had a career .393 OBP, 2nd only to Mickey Cochrane among catchers. His contemporaries considered him the best catcher of his time.

                During the 1880's Charlie Bennett was as important to the Detroit club as Buck Ewing was to the New York club.

                Piazza was 11th on my list. The order of my current list will most likely change when I can compare these players data within a neutral league. I don't have a relational data base on my computer so I have to set up Excel spread sheets for my calculations. Unfortunately that takes more time than I seem to have.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post

                  From 1920 to 1931, Wally Schang threw out 408 would be base stealers out of 913. That is 45%.
                  He threw out 814 of 1779 (46%) for this career, but the league average was 44%, so Schang just had a slightly better than average arm. There were a lot of guys running then foolishly so SB percentages league wide were only 56%. Baseball Ref shows him with 13 pickoffs from 1925-1931. Win Shares Fielding has him as a C+. I like Schang as a low level hall of famer, but I think ranking him ahead of Berra, Campanella, Gibson, Carter and Piazza is absurd. He only caught 90+ games in a season 5 times in his career. He only had 350 AB in a season 5 times, and only topped 400 AB twice. He only played in 120+ games in a season 3 times.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1 Yogi Berra
                    2 Johnny Bench
                    3 Mike Piazza
                    4 Mickey Cochrane
                    5 Bill Dickey
                    6 Gary Carter
                    7 Roy Campanella
                    8 Joe Mauer
                    9 Ivan Rodriguez
                    10 Carlton Fisk
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Glad to see the ballots coming in guys.

                      Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post

                      From 1920 to 1931, Wally Schang threw out 408 would be base stealers out of 913. That is 45%. From 1921 to 1931, he picked off 30 runners. In 32 World Series games there were 21 SB against him, he thew out 21 runners and picked off 1 more. He had a career .393 OBP, 2nd only to Mickey Cochrane among catchers. His contemporaries considered him the best catcher of his time.

                      During the 1880's Charlie Bennett was as important to the Detroit club as Buck Ewing was to the New York club.

                      Piazza was 11th on my list. The order of my current list will most likely change when I can compare these players data within a neutral league. I don't have a relational data base on my computer so I have to set up Excel spread sheets for my calculations. Unfortunately that takes more time than I seem to have.
                      Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post
                      1. Johnny Bench
                      2. Michey Cochrane
                      3. Buck Ewing
                      4. Wally Schang
                      5. Josh Gibson
                      6. Charlie Bennett
                      7. Ivan Rodriguez
                      8. Gary Carter
                      9. Roy Campanella
                      10. Yogi Berra
                      Very cool SWCBaseball. Do you make all your rankings based on neutral league environment projections? Are the rankings here what you remember from an old neutral setting you did? Do you factor in player/managers? I always take it into account if applicable.

                      Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                      1 Yogi Berra
                      2 Johnny Bench
                      3 Mike Piazza
                      4 Mickey Cochrane
                      5 Bill Dickey
                      6 Gary Carter
                      7 Roy Campanella
                      8 Joe Mauer
                      9 Ivan Rodriguez
                      10 Carlton Fisk
                      The first Mauer sighting. I have him just outside at the moment at #13 behind Fisk and Dickey respectively and 94th all-time between Biggio and Frisch. Is he in your top 100?
                      Last edited by bluesky5; 10-13-2018, 11:26 PM.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post


                        The first Mauer sighting. I have him just outside at the moment at #13 behind Fisk and Dickey respectively and 94th all-time between Biggio and Frisch. Is he in your top 100?
                        Honestly I'm not sure. I don't have an official top 100 or even a top 10 per position. Just going with my gut at the moment and it can change from year to year. The Mauer vote is obviously based on his peak, which is among the top 3 or 4 ever by a catcher IMHO. I believe that alone makes him worthy of a top-10 spot.
                        Last edited by GiambiJuice; 10-14-2018, 08:45 AM.
                        My top 10 players:

                        1. Babe Ruth
                        2. Barry Bonds
                        3. Ty Cobb
                        4. Ted Williams
                        5. Willie Mays
                        6. Alex Rodriguez
                        7. Hank Aaron
                        8. Honus Wagner
                        9. Lou Gehrig
                        10. Mickey Mantle

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1. Johnny Bench- still the "benchmark".
                          2. Yogi Berra- consistently good to excellent for more than a decade.
                          3. Mike Piazza- I've moved him up. Great hitter, makes up for just adequate defense dominated by his poor throwing.
                          4. Roy Campanella- I give him some NeL, WW2 credit. Didn't make the Majors until he was 26 1/2, probably lost 5 seasons at the front end of his career due to the color line.
                          5. Gary Carter- a lot like Bench.
                          6. Ivan Rodriguez- I didn't dock him for PEDs.
                          7. Mickey Cochrane- a great player- could rank higher if injuries hadn't curtailed his career.
                          8. Carlton Fisk- strange career curve
                          9. Bill Dickey
                          10. Gabby Hartnett

                          I didn't rank any NeLers- I have no doubt that Gibson was among the greatest. I also didn't rank old timers like Ewing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post

                            From 1920 to 1931, Wally Schang threw out 408 would be base stealers out of 913. That is 45%. From 1921 to 1931, he picked off 30 runners. In 32 World Series games there were 21 SB against him, he thew out 21 runners and picked off 1 more. He had a career .393 OBP, 2nd only to Mickey Cochrane among catchers. His contemporaries considered him the best catcher of his time.

                            During the 1880's Charlie Bennett was as important to the Detroit club as Buck Ewing was to the New York club.

                            Piazza was 11th on my list. The order of my current list will most likely change when I can compare these players data within a neutral league. I don't have a relational data base on my computer so I have to set up Excel spread sheets for my calculations. Unfortunately that takes more time than I seem to have.
                            You do realize that throwing out base stealers is a very small part of a catcher's job, right?

                            Piazza not in the top 5 is ridiculous. He is far and away the best offensively, and overall above average defensively.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1. Piazza- more consistent in his prime than the rest
                              2. Bench-great peak years, but kind of hot and cold years
                              3. Cochrane-the best of the old timers
                              4. Rodriguez-amazing longevity and great peak
                              5. Carter-a more consistent version of Bench, but didn't peak nearly as high
                              6. Fisk-both Pudge's had great longevity, Fisk was too inconsistent
                              7. Berra-overrated due to success of his teams
                              8. Dickey-second best of the old timers
                              9. Simmons-more modern version of Berra
                              10. Campanella-can't ignore those peak years.

                              In my view, Piazza was the only one consistently putting up MVP calibre seasons during his prime. Most of the other all time catchers were on great teams and this helped their stats and overrated them a bit.
                              Last edited by willshad; 10-14-2018, 10:52 AM.

                              Comment

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