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  • Early Shortstops

    Jack Glasscock was clearly the best SS of the 1871-1892 period. Let's see who else shows up.

    B-REF WAR for SS - 1871-1892
    .
    1 Jack Glasscock 1879 - 1892 14 SS 6435 7.0 56.8 36.6 10.9 -0.4 9.7
    2 Jack Rowe 1879 - 1890 12 SS 4626 28.4 23.3 -1.0 0.0 6.1
    3 George Wright 1871 - 1882 12 SS 2942 5.0 23.3 14.3 5.6 0.0 3.3
    4 Frank Fennelly 1884 - 1890 7 SS 3451 19.2 14.0 0.7 0.0 4.5
    5 Ed McKean 1887 - 1892 6 SS 3600 19.1 18.4 -3.6 0.0 4.3
    6 Sam Wise 1881 - 1891 11 SS 4566 17.8 19.2 -6.0 0.0 4.6
    7 Germany Smith 1884 - 1892 9 SS 4261 1.0 17.3 2.1 9.2 -0.1 6.1
    8 Wee Davy Force 1871 - 1886 15 SS 4407 25.0 17.1 6.9 5.1 -0.5 5.6
    9 Candy Nelson 1872 - 1890 13 SS 3673 16.0 12.9 -0.3 0.0 3.4
    10 Arthur Irwin 1880 - 1891 12 SS 4190 4.0 15.2 6.2 2.4 -0.1 6.6
    11 Herman Long 1889 - 1892 4 SS 2486 13.9 9.8 0.9 0.0 3.1
    12 John Peters 1874 - 1884 11 SS 2719 1.0 13.7 8.0 1.8 -0.0 3.9
    13 Bill Gleason 1882 - 1889 8 SS 3624 10.3 5.5 -0.1 0.0 4.9
    .


    19th Century League Champion
    1900s League Champion
    1910s League Champion

    1930s League Division Winner
    1950s League Champion
    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
    1960s League Division Winner
    1970s League Champion
    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
    1980s League Champion
    All Time Greats League Champion

  • #2
    I've never seen Davy Force referred to as 'Wee' Davy.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
      I've never seen Davy Force referred to as 'Wee' Davy.
      I added that in, that's how he was known in his day. His other nickname was "Tom Thumb." He's listed at 5-4, 130.
      Last edited by SavoyBG; 10-13-2018, 03:24 PM.
      .


      19th Century League Champion
      1900s League Champion
      1910s League Champion

      1930s League Division Winner
      1950s League Champion
      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
      1960s League Division Winner
      1970s League Champion
      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
      1980s League Champion
      All Time Greats League Champion

      Comment


      • #4
        This thread has me thinking. When we talk about the early days it is almost exclusively about hall of fame level guys. We rarely discuss players who were very good, but were clearly not hall of famers. So I'm gonna do that here. For shortstops we have Jack Rowe. A unique career, as he was mainly a catcher for the first half of his career, and then he switched to SS.

        He played mainly for Buffalo in the NL, but also for the championship 1887 Detroit Wolverines (NL), for the Pirates in 1889 and Buffalo in the Player's League in 1890, his last season. He led the NL in triples with 11 in 1881. He also may be the only player ever to lead his league in FLD% both as a catcher (1884) and a SS (1890). He was a player-manager in 1890.

        Rowe may have been the Jeter of his day, as he had a career OPS+ of 115, but gets a F at SS in Win Shares Fielding.





        .


        19th Century League Champion
        1900s League Champion
        1910s League Champion

        1930s League Division Winner
        1950s League Champion
        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
        1960s League Division Winner
        1970s League Champion
        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
        1980s League Champion
        All Time Greats League Champion

        Comment


        • #5
          Let's look at the catchers. Again, the 50 foot mound days, 1871-1892.
          .
          1 Buck Ewing 1880 - 1892 13 C 4229 47.0 41.2 32.0 4.4 -0.1 4.9
          2 Charlie Bennett 1878 - 1892 14 C 4077 38.8 21.4 11.6 0.0 5.9
          3 Fred Carroll 1884 - 1891 8 C 3290 22.5 22.2 -0.5 0.0 0.8
          4 Jocko Milligan 1884 - 1892 9 C 2939 20.6 13.8 3.5 0.0 3.2
          5 Cal McVey 1871 - 1879 9 C 2543 176.1 19.2 20.3 -1.1 -0.9 0.9
          6 John Clapp 1872 - 1883 11 C 2635 19.1 14.6 2.0 0.0 2.5
          7 Jack Clements 1884 - 1892 9 C 2889 17.6 11.2 2.3 0.0 4.1
          8 Doggie Miller 1884 - 1892 9 C 4086 15.5 15.8 -2.8 0.0 2.5
          9 Jim Keenan 1875 - 1891 11 C 2084 19.0 10.4 3.8 3.6 0.5 2.5
          10 Jack O'Brien 1882 - 1890 8 C 2380 9.6 9.1 -1.2 0.0 1.7
          11 Deacon McGuire 1884 - 1892 8 C 2009 4.0 8.7 7.5 -1.3 -0.2 2.7
          12 Chief Zimmer 1884 - 1892 8 C 2076 8.2 4.6 0.5 0.0 3.2
          13 Emil Gross 1879 - 1884 5 C 1038 8.0 8.3 -1.9 0.0 1.6
          .
          Ewing and Bennett are clearly HOF level guys, so let's go with Fred Carroll.

          Carroll played just 8 seasons, from 1884 to 1891. He started with Columbus in the AA, and then played with the Pittsburgh team in 3 different leagues, the AA, the NL and the PL. He led the NL in OBP (.486) and OPS+ (190) in 1889. A tremendous hitter with a career5 OPS+ of 135, he played almost as many games in the OF (319) as he did at C (377).

          He is not even listed in Win Shares Fielding, but seems to have been below average as a defensive catcher. Drew a ton of walks for his day.



          .


          19th Century League Champion
          1900s League Champion
          1910s League Champion

          1930s League Division Winner
          1950s League Champion
          1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
          1960s League Division Winner
          1970s League Champion
          1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
          1980s League Champion
          All Time Greats League Champion

          Comment


          • #6
            So far we have:

            C - Fred Carroll
            1B -
            2B -
            SS - Jack Rowe
            3B -
            LF -
            CF -
            RF -
            P -

            Time for the 1Bmen, 1871-1892. The top 4 are HOF level guys, and Orr and Reilly have been talked about as great short career hitters. So let's go with John Morrill.
            .
            1 Cap Anson 1871 - 1892 22 1B 8968 4.0 83.7 78.0 3.8 -0.1 2.0
            2 Roger Connor 1880 - 1892 13 1B 6606 69.9 64.9 3.8 0.0 1.3
            3 Dan Brouthers 1879 - 1892 14 1B 6316 23.0 68.7 71.1 -2.2 -1.1 0.9
            4 Joe Start 1871 - 1886 16 1B 4911 32.5 29.6 2.2 0.0 0.6
            5 Dave Orr 1883 - 1890 8 1B 3411 10.0 27.3 26.7 1.1 -0.5 0.1
            6 John Reilly 1880 - 1891 10 1B 4935 23.4 24.6 -1.1 0.0 -0.2
            7 John Morrill 1876 - 1890 15 1B 5274 58.2 23.0 22.0 -0.4 -0.4 1.8
            8 Tommy Tucker 1887 - 1892 6 1B 3585 3.1 18.3 18.5 -0.3 -0.1 0.1
            9 Jake Beckley 1888 - 1892 5 1B 2678 17.8 15.8 1.6 0.0 0.3
            10 Bill Phillips 1879 - 1888 10 1B 4458 12.5 15.0 -3.0 0.0 0.4
            11 Perry Werden 1884 - 1892 5 1B 1954 141.1 12.5 9.6 1.9 1.0 0.1
            12 Sid Farrar 1883 - 1890 8 1B 3840 10.7 9.2 0.8 0.0 0.7
            13 Charlie Comiskey 1882 - 1892 11 1B 5535 12.1 10.4 5.2 5.0 -0.0 0.2
            .


            19th Century League Champion
            1900s League Champion
            1910s League Champion

            1930s League Division Winner
            1950s League Champion
            1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
            1960s League Division Winner
            1970s League Champion
            1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
            1980s League Champion
            All Time Greats League Champion

            Comment


            • #7
              Honest John Morrill played from 1876 to 1890. and seems to have been a forerunner of Lou Gehrig, as he led his league in games played in 4 consecutive seasons from 1877 to 1880. He played most of his career with the Beaneaters, one year with Washington and then finished up with Boston in the PL in 1890. He was a player-manager from 1882-1889.

              A career OPS+ of 111, Win Shares Fielding has him as a B at 1B.



              .


              19th Century League Champion
              1900s League Champion
              1910s League Champion

              1930s League Division Winner
              1950s League Champion
              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
              1960s League Division Winner
              1970s League Champion
              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
              1980s League Champion
              All Time Greats League Champion

              Comment


              • #8
                C - Fred Carroll
                1B - John Morrill
                2B -
                SS - Jack Rowe
                3B -
                LF -
                CF -
                RF -
                P -

                The 2Bmen now, 1871-1892. The top 5 here have all been discussed, so let's go with Jack Farrell at 2B.
                .
                1 Hardy Richardson 1879 - 1892 14 2B 6029 16.0 41.0 38.0 3.0 0.1 0.0
                2 Fred Dunlap 1880 - 1891 12 2B 4264 2.2 37.0 28.2 6.5 -0.1 2.5
                3 Bid McPhee 1882 - 1892 11 2B 5899 34.3 22.5 9.2 0.0 2.6
                4 Ross Barnes 1871 - 1881 9 2B 2506 1.1 27.7 22.8 3.5 -0.4 1.7
                5 Fred Pfeffer 1882 - 1892 11 2B 5524 37.2 24.4 16.7 3.7 0.4 3.6
                6 Jack Farrell 1879 - 1889 11 2B 3815 18.7 11.7 4.2 0.0 2.7
                7 Danny Richardson 1884 - 1892 9 2B 4059 100.0 17.6 7.9 7.2 0.5 2.1
                8 Cupid Childs 1888 - 1892 4 2B 1914 16.8 16.3 -0.5 0.0 1.0
                9 Hub Collins 1886 - 1892 7 2B 3130 15.1 15.6 -0.0 0.0 -0.6
                10 Jack Burdock 1872 - 1891 18 2B 5065 15.0 9.3 2.8 0.0 2.9
                11 Pop Smith 1880 - 1891 12 2B 4623 5.2 13.1 7.5 1.9 -0.3 3.9
                12 Yank Robinson 1882 - 1892 10 2B 4167 89.0 11.9 14.4 -3.5 -0.9 1.8
                13 Mike McGeary 1871 - 1882 11 2B 2507 10.9 6.0 2.9 0.0 2.0
                14 Charley Bassett 1884 - 1892 9 2B 3759 10.4 3.0 4.3 0.0 3.0
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
                1910s League Champion

                1930s League Division Winner
                1950s League Champion
                1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                1960s League Division Winner
                1970s League Champion
                1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                1980s League Champion
                All Time Greats League Champion

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jack Farrell played 11 seasons, 1879-1889. A rare player for those days in that he almost exclusively only played one position for his first 12 seasons before playing a good number of games at SS his last 3 years. He started with Syracuse and then played with Providence in the Radbourn days. Also Philly and Washington before finishing up with Baltimore in the AA. A career OPS+ of 94, Win Shares Fielding has him as a B minus at 2B.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ..C - Fred Carroll
                    1B - John Morrill
                    2B - Jack Farrell
                    SS - Jack Rowe
                    3B -
                    LF -
                    CF -
                    RF -
                    P -

                    The 3Bmen now, 1871-1892
                    .
                    1 Deacon White 1871 - 1890 20 3B 6972 10.0 45.5 44.1 -3.5 -0.2 5.2
                    2 Ned Williamson 1878 - 1890 13 3B 5082 35.0 35.7 23.1 6.9 -0.4 6.1
                    3 Ezra Sutton 1871 - 1888 18 3B 5536 6.0 32.4 30.4 -2.1 -0.5 4.7
                    4 Arlie Latham 1880 - 1892 11 3B 5744 25.6 12.9 8.8 0.0 3.9
                    5 Denny Lyons 1885 - 1892 8 3B 3288 25.5 24.8 -1.5 0.0 2.2
                    6 Billy Nash 1884 - 1892 9 3B 4185 1.1 24.1 18.5 2.0 0.1 3.5
                    7 Tom Burns 1880 - 1892 13 3B 5198 1.1 22.2 14.7 1.7 -0.3 6.0
                    8 Jerry Denny 1881 - 1891 11 3B 4713 4.0 20.8 14.1 2.6 -0.2 4.2
                    9 George Pinkney 1884 - 1892 9 3B 4685 2.0 20.2 17.7 -0.7 0.0 3.1
                    10 Bob Ferguson 1871 - 1884 14 3B 3596 57.1 14.5 11.7 1.6 -1.3 2.5
                    11 Levi Meyerle 1871 - 1884 8 3B 1453 19.0 10.9 12.8 -2.2 -0.4 0.7
                    12 Billy Shindle 1886 - 1892 7 3B 3019 10.4 6.8 1.2 0.0 2.5
                    .
                    The top 6 guys here are all well known, so let's go with Tom Burns.

                    Burns played almost his entire career with Cap Anson's Chicago White Stockings, also known at times as the Colts. He was their SS for several years before switching over to 3B. Led the NL in games played several times. A career OPS+ of 97, he also managed later, including t5he Cubs in the late 1890s, when they were known as the Chicago Orphans. Win Shares Fielding shows him as an A at 3B.





                    .


                    19th Century League Champion
                    1900s League Champion
                    1910s League Champion

                    1930s League Division Winner
                    1950s League Champion
                    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                    1960s League Division Winner
                    1970s League Champion
                    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                    1980s League Champion
                    All Time Greats League Champion

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ..C - Fred Carroll
                      1B - John Morrill
                      2B - Jack Farrell
                      SS - Jack Rowe
                      3B - Tom Burns
                      LF -
                      CF -
                      RF -
                      P -

                      Let's see what we have in LF. 1871-1892.
                      .
                      1 Jim O'Rourke 1872 - 1892 21 LF 8443 19.2 51.0 60.3 -5.3 0.1 -4.2
                      2 Harry Stovey 1880 - 1892 13 LF 6579 9.1 43.8 46.7 1.7 -0.2 -4.4
                      3 Henry Larkin 1884 - 1892 9 LF 4925 26.9 32.0 -2.9 0.0 -2.2
                      4 Charley Jones 1875 - 1888 12 LF 4009 3.0 26.5 29.1 1.8 0.0 -4.4
                      5 Tip O'Neill 1883 - 1892 10 LF 4720 289.0 25.4 29.6 3.4 -2.2 -5.4
                      6 Billy Hamilton 1888 - 1892 5 LF 2639 20.2 22.9 0.3 0.0 -3.0
                      7 Tom York 1871 - 1885 15 LF 4211 19.6 21.5 2.9 0.0 -4.9
                      8 George Wood 1880 - 1892 13 LF 5821 12.0 19.2 25.7 -0.1 -0.5 -5.9
                      9 Abner Dalrymple 1878 - 1891 12 LF 4384 18.5 23.5 -0.1 0.0 -4.9
                      10 Darby O'Brien 1887 - 1892 6 LF 3128 1.0 13.4 15.1 2.0 0.1 -3.8
                      11 George Van Haltren 1887 - 1892 6 LF 2908 667.1 13.1 16.7 -3.3 1.6 -2.0
                      12 Walt Wilmot 1888 - 1892 5 LF 2602 12.7 13.5 2.1 0.0 -2.9
                      13 Emmett Seery 1884 - 1892 9 LF 4051 7.0 10.7 14.7 0.8 -0.2 -4.6
                      14 George Hall 1871 - 1877 7 LF 1708 10.5 12.1 -0.0 0.0 -1.6
                      .
                      I don't remember much talk about Henry Larkin, but he was mainly a 1Bman. Hamilton of course went on to be a CFer. The other top guys all have HOF support, so let's go with Tom York. York was there when the NA started in 1871, and played until 1885. He started with Troy, played with Baltimore (NA), Philly (NA) and Hartford (NA & NL). Then he was with Providence, the the Spiders, finishing up with Baltimore in the AA.

                      York led his league in games played 6 times. He played a bit of CF and RF, but played over 90% of his games in LF. He never played anywhere other than the outfield. A career OPS+ of 119, Win Shares Fielding has him as an A minus outfielder. He managed Providence from 1878-1881.









                      .


                      19th Century League Champion
                      1900s League Champion
                      1910s League Champion

                      1930s League Division Winner
                      1950s League Champion
                      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                      1960s League Division Winner
                      1970s League Champion
                      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                      1980s League Champion
                      All Time Greats League Champion

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We've got:

                        ..C - Fred Carroll
                        1B - John Morrill
                        2B - Jack Farrell
                        SS - Jack Rowe
                        3B - Tom Burns
                        LF - Tom York
                        CF -
                        RF -
                        P -

                        Be back later to finish up.
                        .


                        19th Century League Champion
                        1900s League Champion
                        1910s League Champion

                        1930s League Division Winner
                        1950s League Champion
                        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                        1960s League Division Winner
                        1970s League Champion
                        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                        1980s League Champion
                        All Time Greats League Champion

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ..C - Fred Carroll
                          1B - John Morrill
                          2B - Jack Farrell
                          SS - Jack Rowe
                          3B - Tom Burns
                          LF - Tom York
                          CF -
                          RF -
                          P -

                          Let's check the CFers now, 1871-1892:
                          .
                          1 Paul Hines 1872 - 1891 20 CF 7470 1.0 44.9 50.5 -0.2 -0.0 -5.4
                          2 George Gore 1879 - 1892 14 CF 6104 39.9 43.9 1.4 0.0 -5.4
                          3 Pete Browning 1882 - 1892 11 CF 5039 0.1 38.3 43.9 -1.6 -0.2 -3.8
                          4 Jimmy Ryan 1885 - 1892 8 CF 3848 112.1 22.3 27.1 -1.7 -0.2 -2.9
                          5 Curt Welch 1884 - 1892 9 CF 4874 1.0 20.1 18.6 6.7 -0.3 -4.8
                          6 Ned Hanlon 1880 - 1892 13 CF 5563 18.1 24.6 -1.4 0.0 -5.2
                          7 Mike Griffin 1887 - 1892 6 CF 3485 17.2 18.6 1.9 0.0 -3.2
                          8 Dummy Hoy 1888 - 1892 5 CF 3147 14.8 19.7 -2.0 0.0 -2.9
                          9 Lip Pike 1871 - 1887 10 CF 2032 14.3 17.0 -1.6 0.0 -1.1
                          10 Jim McTamany 1885 - 1891 7 CF 3682 13.6 16.3 1.0 0.0 -3.8
                          11 Bug Holliday 1889 - 1892 4 CF 2324 4.0 12.3 15.6 -0.6 -0.2 -2.5
                          .
                          The top 4 guys are all hall of fame level. We'll go with Curt Welch.

                          Welch was the Terry Moore or Curt Flood of his day. Tremendous fielder who was an average right handed hitter. For 3 years he was with the Championship St. Louis club in the AA, and he scored the most famous run of the 19th century to clinch the 1886 world series for the Browns. Another one who led his league in games played a few times, he had a career OPS+ of 107 and he gets an A+ in Win Shares Fielding.
                          .


                          19th Century League Champion
                          1900s League Champion
                          1910s League Champion

                          1930s League Division Winner
                          1950s League Champion
                          1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                          1960s League Division Winner
                          1970s League Champion
                          1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                          1980s League Champion
                          All Time Greats League Champion

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ..C - Fred Carroll
                            1B - John Morrill
                            2B - Jack Farrell
                            SS - Jack Rowe
                            3B - Tom Burns
                            LF - Tom York
                            CF - Curt Welch
                            RF -
                            P -

                            Let's do RF now, 1871-1892:
                            .
                            1 King Kelly 1878 - 1892 15 RF 6382 45.2 43.6 48.7 -5.2 -1.0 1.2
                            2 Sam Thompson 1885 - 1892 8 RF 4125 26.4 31.1 -0.5 0.0 -4.3
                            3 Mike Tiernan 1887 - 1892 6 RF 3283 19.2 23.7 28.4 -0.5 -0.8 -3.4
                            4 Oyster Burns 1884 - 1892 8 RF 3921 138.2 22.1 27.5 -3.4 -0.3 -1.8
                            5 Orator Shafer 1874 - 1890 13 RF 3784 19.4 19.0 5.1 0.0 -4.7
                            6 Chicken Wolf 1882 - 1892 11 RF 5239 10.0 17.5 20.6 2.3 -0.8 -4.5
                            7 Ed Swartwood 1881 - 1892 9 RF 3244 5.1 17.2 21.7 -1.3 -0.1 -3.1
                            8 Hugh Duffy 1888 - 1892 5 RF 2871 16.1 17.4 1.3 0.0 -2.7
                            9 Jim Fogarty 1884 - 1890 7 RF 3264 14.0 14.8 12.4 5.4 -0.4 -2.7
                            10 Tom Brown 1882 - 1892 11 RF 5335 49.1 14.4 21.8 -0.1 -1.6 -5.6
                            11 Paul Radford 1883 - 1892 10 RF 4843 42.1 12.0 15.5 -0.0 -2.1 -1.4
                            .


                            19th Century League Champion
                            1900s League Champion
                            1910s League Champion

                            1930s League Division Winner
                            1950s League Champion
                            1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                            1960s League Division Winner
                            1970s League Champion
                            1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                            1980s League Champion
                            All Time Greats League Champion

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Kelly and Thompson are hall of famers, and Tiernan is a well known great hitter, so we'll go with Oyster Burns.

                              Tommy "Oyster" Burns played from 1884 to 1895. In 1890 in his first year in the NL he led the league in HRs (13) and RBIs (128), although many of the best players were in the PL that year. He played a couple of games in the UA in 1884, but was then in the AA with Baltimore and Brooklyn for 5 years. He went to the Brooklyn Bridegrooms in the NL for the next 6 years before finishing up with the Giants. A career OPS+ of 135, and Win Shares fielding has him as a D+ outfielder.. He also played a lot of games (200) at SS, and was a regular there one season early on.

                              .


                              19th Century League Champion
                              1900s League Champion
                              1910s League Champion

                              1930s League Division Winner
                              1950s League Champion
                              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                              1960s League Division Winner
                              1970s League Champion
                              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                              1980s League Champion
                              All Time Greats League Champion

                              Comment

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