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Ty Cobb General Thread

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  • Ill do the numbers, both league wise and team wise, from 06-28 (05' wasn't a full season for Ty), and from 18' to 34' for Ruth (it would be unfair to him to add in an entire season of great offense, when he hardly played.) Lo mismo, not right to add in seasons where a guy had 92, 132, and 136 at bats. Not enough sampling size. (the weighting, internal consistency, and validity of the metric would be thrown off). Hence leaving 05' out also.

    But it might be a few days.


    Actually, Roy-
    In the meantime (speaking of indexing) here are a few links I think you'll find interesting. Quite germane.

    http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/1921_TC.html

    Put Ty starting his offensive career in 1920, and see what happens.....

    http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/1905_BR.html
    Last edited by csh19792001; 05-21-2004, 03:25 PM.

    Comment


    • Bill-
      Much simpler than SO/AB seems to be just averaging things. I figured out that (given the strikeout numbers we have), Cobb would have K'd about 560 times for his career (if the numbers had been kept from 1905-12). Still not bad for a guy who batted 11,429 times and led in slugging 8 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      So of course Jackson, Speaker, and Collins K'd less per at bat. Not one of them was the slugger Ty Cobb was, or near the hitter.
      Last edited by csh19792001; 03-26-2005, 08:22 PM.

      Comment


      • In my baseball simulation replay...Ty Cobb K's about 30 times a year...not bad at all.

        Oh yeah...he was drafted by the St. Louis Browns...lol

        Cobb's first year in the league

        123 games
        478 ABS
        93 runs
        184 hits
        20 doubles
        14 triples
        4 hrs
        69 rbis
        73 sbs
        19 Caught stealing
        49 walks
        29 k's
        .385 avg
        .444 obp
        31.7 offensive win shares
        3.6 defensive win shares

        Won AL MVP award
        Won AL ROY award
        Won AL CF Gold Glove Award

        Too bad that Ty will probably never win a World Series unless the Browns let him go...

        Comment


        • Hi Guys,

          Illigtimi non carborundum is good, but the ones we say it to may think that we qualify from their perspective. That's why I choose the other comments, an open mind is more important than the perspective of who's a %*&$#*!

          Bill, I'm glad you appreciated my comments. That just shows the joy of this forum, a Ty Guy and a Ruth Rooter can agree to disagree and still support each other.

          Mark aka four tool

          Comment


          • When I got here, I was arrogant, insufferable, condescending and too proud. I thought I was the smartest person in the room.


            Being arrogant etc.has nothing to do with whether you are the smartest guy or not Look at Ty's and Babe's approaches to the game, opposite yet one or the other is the best ever.

            Comment


            • Yep, a baseball ball. there's a book out by Louisville Slugger that uses bases to determine the best hitter. they basically take total bases and see how much over the league TB a given player was in his time. Yes Ruth is #1 and Ted is #2. Cobb is 9th. BUTTTTT.....

              Ruth's bases are about 3150 Cobbs about 1950. If Cobb has even 1200 baserunning bases, guress who wins? If it's the 1500 you once claculated, even if Ruth also gets more, it's so close that the numbers are not enough, or possibly Cobb wins outright.

              Here's something statistical which gives Cobb a real chance once all the numbers are counted.

              Yes guys I still need to do the home/road splits, had a sick puppy for a few days, they are coming.

              Comment


              • UPDATE on TY COBB in my Historic Replay

                Ok, 1st Ty almost single handed brought the Browns to the WS...with help from Bobby Wallace and Larry Schafly (Larry didn't last long in real life, but his limited time showed a walking defensive player)

                Ty hit this in 1907

                149 games
                618 ABs
                102 runs
                251 hits (New AL and MLB record besting Nap Lajoie's 237 in 1901)
                34 doubles
                10 triples
                5 hrs
                109 rbis
                83 SBs (beating his ML record 73)
                19 CS
                47 bbs
                29 K's
                45.7 OWS!!!!!
                3.5 DWS

                Won his 2nd MVP Award
                2nd GG
                and made the All Star team this year, unlike last year when he had a slow start
                Lost the Triple Crown by just hitting 5 HRs behind Dusty Miller (8) of the Red Sox and Harry Davis (7) and Tommy leach (7) of the A's

                Ty doesn't exactly have a 'terrible' team around him

                C Branch Rickey---.255 1st GG at C
                1b Tom Jones-----.279 27 sbs
                2b-Larry Schlafly---72 bbs 56 sbs .289 2 time GG in 1904 and 1905 All Star in 1907
                3B-Bill Coughlin---.283 lost his HR power after hitting 7 HRs last 3 years
                SS-Bobby Wallace---only played 95 games, unable to get his 5th GG award at SS
                LF-George Stone---.317 64 rbis
                RF Charlie Hemphill and Dave Fultz (need an upgrade)

                Again it's pitching and that's why St. Louis was only good for 3rd behind the Red Sox AWESOME staff of
                40 yr old Cy Young 32-16 2.24 184 ks 31.6 PWS
                Bob Wicker 26-17 2.33 226 ks (1st in AL)
                Chief Bender 25-13 1.82 (1st)

                and the White Sox have
                Doc White 31-16 2.09
                Ed Walsh Sr 25-20 2.48
                and the surprising
                Bob Rhoads 27-18 2.18

                I hope you enjoy this Bill, I know Ty being on the Browns is a stretch but Cy Young HAS to retire someday and then I think the Browns might give Ty a World Series!

                and bad news since I know you love Rube Waddell as much as I...

                Poor Rube with the invariables that I have suffered a Career Ending Injury at 27 with a torn back muscle (probably from carrying that stove out of the burning building)

                He still has the ML record with 337 ks but jis final career is
                67-64
                3.51 ERA
                98 CGS
                5 SHO
                303 bbs
                1195 ks (13th all time in only 4 seasons!)
                69.5 PWS

                Comment


                • Bill, if you haven't already seen today's new "best offensive player of all time" thread, check it out. It will make your day.

                  Comment


                  • I read an interesting article in a sportscard publication today.

                    It was about a elderly man in Cobb County GA and how he had a 36 oz sterling silver baseball bat that was given to Ty Cobb in 1922 by a local business as a salute for what Cobb had done for the local community.

                    The elderly man said as a small boy in the 1930's his father took the bat in exchange for some car and truck repair Cobb needed.
                    The man's father never sold it saying one day anything that belonged to the greatest baseball player ever would be worth a fortune.

                    The old timer was right!


                    I thought this was interesting.I wonder if many of Cobb's awards he won over his long career have since been destroyed after using them as trade bait.

                    How many tangible awards did Cobb win?

                    How many of these are in museums?

                    Just was an interesting topic I thought and worthy of placing and asking on the Ty Cobb thread.


                    Have a good day friends - Jeremy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by julusnc
                      I read an interesting article in a sportscard publication today.

                      It was about a elderly man in Cobb County GA and how he had a 36 oz sterling silver baseball bat that was given to Ty Cobb in 1922 by a local business as a salute for what Cobb had done for the local community.

                      The elderly man said as a small boy in the 1930's his father took the bat in exchange for some car and truck repair Cobb needed.
                      The man's father never sold it saying one day anything that belonged to the greatest baseball player ever would be worth a fortune.

                      The old timer was right!


                      I thought this was interesting.I wonder if many of Cobb's awards he won over his long career have since been destroyed after using them as trade bait.

                      How many tangible awards did Cobb win?
                      At least one Chalmers automobile, right?
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • Yes I have heard of the automobile he won and also a crown that was made for him by the Tiffany Company and presented by Ford Motors back in the 1920's to Mr Cobb......

                        I just thought it would be interesting to hear from people that might have seen his displays in museums around the country.

                        Comment


                        • Ok-
                          We we're comparing the run scoring of the TEAMS of Cobb vs. Ruth, in order to show how much their stats are bolstered by not only their era, but the team batting around them. But Roy forgot to take out their respective contributions, and hence compared each player to themselves, which is not statistically sound and provides an innacurate picture.

                          So, I took the runs each player produced each year (from Total Baseball) out of their teams aggregate runs scored each year. I ommited years when either player didnt play 100 games (05, 06, 14, 26, and 28 for Cobb), (1914-18 and 1935 for Ruth). I did this because it would unfairly weight the measure.

                          In 15 seasons with 100 or more games played, Ruth's teams scored 659 runs/year WITHOUT him.

                          In 19 seaons where his teams played 100 or more games, Ty Cobb's teams averaged 503 runs/year WITHOUT him.

                          So 503 vs. 659- this is 31% more runs per year without him. That's an enormus advantage. Ruth was on much better offensive teams, even without his tremendous contributions.

                          We can do overall, en masse era comparisons, (runs/game, or BA, OBP, SLG) for 1919-34 vs. 1906-27, also. That also shows Ruth with a huge advantage as well.

                          AND- the links above (from the Exploratorium) don't even factor in team performance- and look at Cobb playing his entire career against the liveball.
                          Last edited by csh19792001; 03-26-2005, 08:25 PM. Reason: (ibid)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by william_burgess@usa.net
                            How racist Was Ty?


                            Here is a brief piece that went out today from Wesley Frick.



                            Home > News > Opinion

                            Ty Cobb's label as racist is undeserved, baseball historian says

                            Web posted Thursday, May 20, 2004

                            Letter to the Editor
                            The people of Augusta need to be educated on Ty Cobb. And the NAACP
                            needs to revisit its position on Mr. Cobb. Augusta's commissioners
                            need to consider naming the city's minor league baseball stadium
                            after the great Hall of Famer.


                            Here is what the NAACP doesn't know: Mr. Cobb's father was a Georgia
                            state senator from the 31st District who voted against a bill
                            introduced and approved by the Senate that allowed taxes deriving
                            only from black properties to finance the black schools. This was in
                            1900.

                            Ty Cobb set more records in baseball than any other player. He was
                            the first player inducted into baseball's Hall of Fame in 1936. He
                            was the most celebrated athlete in baseball history.

                            In 1950, Cobb dedicated a new hospital in Royston, Ga., to provide
                            medical attention to the region. In Dr. J.B. Gilbert, Mr. Cobb found
                            one of the finest African-American doctors to serve the black
                            population. Before desegregation, Dr. Gilbert also serviced white
                            patients and later became chief of staff at Cobb Memorial Hospital.

                            In 1953, Mr. Cobb established the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation to
                            give scholarships to needy students in Georgia. Hundreds and hundreds
                            of young black students have become beneficiaries of this educational
                            fund.

                            Alexander George Washington Rivers was a black employee of Mr. Cobb's
                            for 18 years and named his first-born Ty Cobb Rivers. "Even if it
                            would have been a gal, I would have named her the same," Mr. Rivers
                            said in an interview with The Detroit News.


                            Bill Burgess
                            Uh... this article doesn't really prove anything at all. There could have been any number of reasons why his father voted that way... and his father wasn't Tyrus. And if I worked for somebody famous, and was sufficiently dim-witted to be overawed by their fame, I could see myself naming a kid after him just to show everybody that I had worked for some famous guy. Whether or not I could stand the guy personally. I tend not to be a fan of journalistic articles that set out a statement and then offer facts that only tangentially or not at all relate to the assertion made, let alone support it.
                            "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                            Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                            Comment


                            • I have a theory on why Ty was racist during his youth.

                              Either two things

                              1) His house was robbed by a black person before, and thus when his mother shot his father, he jumped to conclusions and stereotyped that if a black man didn't rob his house the 1st time, his father wouldn't have died.

                              2) His mother was having an affair with a black man, and his father was trying to catch her with this man, and when caught, she shot him, rather than be kicked to the curb.

                              Far fetched, but usually intense hatred comes from a traumatic experience.

                              Ty did grow as a man, and kept evolving like some people do, and probably saw the many errors of his ways, but we will never know, he really didn't talk alot about that incident later in life...but he must have come to terms with it.

                              Now, as for Babe Ruth and the mysterious circumstances involving his 1st wife's death...why doesn't anyone question that?

                              Comment


                              • Well, I'll put it in kinder terms, but it still doesn't prove anything.

                                I don't know the percentage of black children in the regions where Cobb created his scholarships.

                                It just says "a number of black children" have benefitted. It's highly possible Cobb just set the scholarships up because he wanted to contribute something to his region in general. Of course if he was still highly racist at that time, why wouldn't he preclude blacks from receiving the scholarship?

                                Well, mainly because the political climate of that era would have looked very unkindly on it. And maybe Cobb was intentionally trying to change his image.

                                And lots of rich white people that regard blacks as inferiors kept black servants, so him having a black employee doesn't prove anything, either.

                                I've always heard that Cobb reformed his old racist ways somewhat in later life, but this article alone doesn't disprove the long standing perception that Cobb was a racist.

                                I'd say Cobb was almost definitely at least prejudiced against blacks during his playing career, I think it just is almost certainty considering where he was born. How deep set that prejudice was, how bad it was in comparison to others of his day and other players of his day, and how much of it was overblown simply because of Cobb's well known stature I do not know.

                                And the piece about is father starts the whole article off on bad footing because it is completley irrelevant.

                                Comment

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