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Relationship between modern sabermetrics and history of the game

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  • Relationship between modern sabermetrics and history of the game

    It seems like most young sabermetricians don't care much about the history. The guys of fangraphs mostly all say they don't care about the hall. Also they don't seem to have much respect from the pre 1980 players.


    especially those modern data driven player development guys like driveline really like to **** on historic players stating things like "babe Ruth couldn't hit A ball pitching" or 1950s baseball is like my Sunday league.

    do you think this is a problem? The first wave of sabermetrics like Bill James was quite interested in the history but with the new guys It seems different.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    It seems like most young sabermetricians don't care much about the history. The guys of fangraphs mostly all say they don't care about the hall. Also they don't seem to have much respect from the pre 1980 players.


    especially those modern data driven player development guys like driveline really like to **** on historic players stating things like "babe Ruth couldn't hit A ball pitching" or 1950s baseball is like my Sunday league.

    do you think this is a problem? The first wave of sabermetrics like Bill James was quite interested in the history but with the new guys It seems different.
    People who say things like 'Babe Ruth couldn't hit A ball pitching' and stuff like that are either totally ignorant, which is unlikely, or just looking for attention. They are looking to gain the trust of the lowest common denominator, who have little knowledge of the game's history. Make a bold, shocking statement and people will listen, and some will likely think you're a genius because of what you've 'discovered'. it's similar to Bill James once saying Roy White was better than Jim Rice.

    Of course they really don't believe it.

    I could come out and say something like 'Giancarlo Stanton wouldn't make a major league team in the dead ball era', and get similar reactions, even though that statement is much more likely to be true.
    Last edited by willshad; 12-06-2018, 04:42 AM.

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    • #3
      Phil hughes called out whitey ford as an 80 mph pitcher


      https://twitter.com/PJHughes45/statu...227848198?s=19
      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by willshad View Post

        it's similar to Bill James once saying Roy White was better than Jim Rice.
        Roy White was better than Jim Rice.

        .


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        • #5
          Every generation likes to act as if they invented the wheel.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
            Every generation likes to act as if they invented the wheel.
            Pretty much.

            Also, fangraphs is focused more on analysis of current major league players hence the lack of focus of baseball history . But they do delve into baseball history on occasion. When Stan Musial died they wrote about The Man.

            Stan Musial 1920-2013

            Translating Stan Musial’s Numbers into 2012 Norms

            Stan Musial Hit The Heck Out Of Some Triples
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
              Every generation likes to act as if they invented the wheel.
              This.

              When I was a 20-something regular attendee of local SABR meetings and a loyal reader of SABR publications, in the 1980s, I rarely read the historical accounts of the game. Books on baseball history may or may not have been SABR publications, I ignored them equally. Stat books I devoured, and then practiced on a spreadsheet when I had time.

              With time, I better appreciated history, including baseball history. Ken Burns rocks, and he would rock had he never done docs on baseball.

              The current generation of millenials, and some of the generation just preceeding them, haven't reached their age of enlightenment. They will, and so I discount their views. Their next flavor of the month statistical darling will happen by, and today's statistical darling will be nostalgia soon.

              The beautiful thing about history is that human nature doesn't change (much), and that makes history relevant. Meanwhile, I don't buy at all the ballyhoo that yesterday's stars were short of blessings on muscle. In the Willie Mays bio book The Life The Legend, by James Hirsch, there is a picture of Willie with his shirt off as a 19-year old. He hadn't made the majors yet, and he was cut. C....U.....T. It makes you look twice when you realize that he could not possibly have had a chain of gyms in Alabama in the late 1940s. Nor could he even work out with local high school boys. Then you read that Willie was discouraged from playing much football because his friends and family were concerned he might be injured and risk his baseball career. Yes, Willie Mays was on his local high school football team, on the bench. (!!!)

              Yet there he is like a mall wall poster outside Abercrombie and Fitch.

              Fangraphs is a very good site. Yet, one of the reasons I have lost enthusiasm for stat-head logic is the vacuous base of the logic. OPS? With the double counting of first base, and the non-common denominators in its calculation? A single one-size-fits-all statistic (WAR) for every player? Comparing hitters and pitchers into one statistic is NOT comparing apples and oranges? Ahhh... humor. Millennials, let 'em be, as long as history is appreciated once one such Millennial generation member becomes Baseball Commissioner. And, I'll trust history will win out on that.
              Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

              A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

              Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post
                In the Willie Mays bio book The Life The Legend, by James Hirsch, there is a picture of Willie with his shirt off as a 19-year old. He hadn't made the majors yet, and he was cut. C....U.....T. It makes you look twice when you realize that he could not possibly have had a chain of gyms in Alabama in the late 1940s. Nor could he even work out with local high school boys. Then you read that Willie was discouraged from playing much football because his friends and family were concerned he might be injured and risk his baseball career. Yes, Willie Mays was on his local high school football team, on the bench. (!!!)

                Yet there he is like a mall wall poster outside Abercrombie and Fitch.
                In high school I read his autobiography, I remember seeing a picture of him at the doctor's office. They were trying to hook him up to a diagnostic machine, but there wasn't enough fat on his back for the suction cups to stick!
                The only way to pitch to Tony (Gwynn) is throw the ball down the middle and hope he hits it at someone." - Al Leiter

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post

                  This.

                  When I was a 20-something regular attendee of local SABR meetings and a loyal reader of SABR publications, in the 1980s, I rarely read the historical accounts of the game. Books on baseball history may or may not have been SABR publications, I ignored them equally. Stat books I devoured, and then practiced on a spreadsheet when I had time.

                  With time, I better appreciated history, including baseball history. Ken Burns rocks, and he would rock had he never done docs on baseball.

                  The current generation of millenials, and some of the generation just preceeding them, haven't reached their age of enlightenment. They will, and so I discount their views. Their next flavor of the month statistical darling will happen by, and today's statistical darling will be nostalgia soon.

                  The beautiful thing about history is that human nature doesn't change (much), and that makes history relevant. Meanwhile, I don't buy at all the ballyhoo that yesterday's stars were short of blessings on muscle. In the Willie Mays bio book The Life The Legend, by James Hirsch, there is a picture of Willie with his shirt off as a 19-year old. He hadn't made the majors yet, and he was cut. C....U.....T. It makes you look twice when you realize that he could not possibly have had a chain of gyms in Alabama in the late 1940s. Nor could he even work out with local high school boys. Then you read that Willie was discouraged from playing much football because his friends and family were concerned he might be injured and risk his baseball career. Yes, Willie Mays was on his local high school football team, on the bench. (!!!)

                  Yet there he is like a mall wall poster outside Abercrombie and Fitch.

                  Fangraphs is a very good site. Yet, one of the reasons I have lost enthusiasm for stat-head logic is the vacuous base of the logic. OPS? With the double counting of first base, and the non-common denominators in its calculation? A single one-size-fits-all statistic (WAR) for every player? Comparing hitters and pitchers into one statistic is NOT comparing apples and oranges? Ahhh... humor. Millennials, let 'em be, as long as history is appreciated once one such Millennial generation member becomes Baseball Commissioner. And, I'll trust history will win out on that.
                  To be fair no saber writer uses OPS anymore, they are aware it is flawed and use wRC+ now. OPS+ was state of the art 20 years ago.
                  I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Another case of babe disrespecting. Adam ottavino said on mlb.com that he would strike out Ruth every single time.
                    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dominik View Post
                      Another case of babe disrespecting. Adam ottavino said on mlb.com that he would strike out Ruth every single time.
                      Then Ruth would turn around and strike Ottavino out every single time.
                      Hell, 25 year old Collin McHugh with his 51 ERA+ would strike Ottavino out every single time.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dominik View Post

                        To be fair no saber writer uses OPS anymore, they are aware it is flawed and use wRC+ now. OPS+ was state of the art 20 years ago.
                        If fangraphs wasn't such a pain in the ass to navigate - not because of the interface but because it is slow and makes my computer slow - I'd use wRC+ for sure. I mean you never should add two percentages together. Not to mention leadoff batters are unfairly penalized by it because they don't hit for power and aren't expected to. It's not so much OPS but the fact that people compare them by a stat (SLG%) that is really just a bonus.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                          Not to mention leadoff batters are unfairly penalized by it because they don't hit for power and aren't expected to.
                          What backwards logic this is. First off plenty of leadoff batters hit with power, Ever heard of Charlie Blackmon and George Springer? Secondly many hitters are stuck in the leadoff spot BECAUSE they don't hit with power. Leadoff hitters are not penalized. Hitters who don't hit with power are penalized, and rightfully so, because they don't create runs at the same level of hitters who do hit with power.
                          .


                          19th Century League Champion
                          1900s League Champion
                          1910s League Champion

                          1930s League Division Winner
                          1950s League Champion
                          1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                          1960s League Division Winner
                          1970s League Champion
                          1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                          1980s League Champion
                          All Time Greats League Champion

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                            What backwards logic this is. First off plenty of leadoff batters hit with power, Ever heard of Charlie Blackmon and George Springer? Secondly many hitters are stuck in the leadoff spot BECAUSE they don't hit with power. Leadoff hitters are not penalized. Hitters who don't hit with power are penalized, and rightfully so, because they don't create runs at the same level of hitters who do hit with power.
                            No I never have. Are they marxists?

                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                              What backwards logic this is. First off plenty of leadoff batters hit with power, Ever heard of Charlie Blackmon and George Springer? Secondly many hitters are stuck in the leadoff spot BECAUSE they don't hit with power. Leadoff hitters are not penalized. Hitters who don't hit with power are penalized, and rightfully so, because they don't create runs at the same level of hitters who do hit with power.
                              usually leadoff type of guys are forgiven for lack of power because they have the speed factor, and usually can draw walks. The same applies to cleanup guys who don't walk much, as long as they drive in runs and have power. Ichiro was a great leadoff guy, and Juan Gonzalez a great cleanup guy, for example.

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