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Clemens & Bonds’ stats without steroids.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

    Oh yes we can. What else would give us a glimpse?


    What baseball history do you read. EVERYONE didn't decline at the rate. Some players played very through their late 30s. My point, that you can't grasp, is that if Bonds was Ruth on roids, at that age, he would have at least been a very good clean Bonds without roids. It doesn't look like his hand eye coordination, that roids doesn't help, had diminished. He have some idea of how good he would have been, and it would have been terrific. It wasn't all roids.
    I never said he would have been terrible, or even average. I just don't see him putting up 150+ games a season and 150 OPS+ marks year after year in his mid-late 30s. Feel free to disagree. It's all just speculation anyway.
    Last edited by willshad; 03-13-2019, 08:36 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
      Didn't a foot or heel injury accelerate Pujols' decline?
      Plantar fasciitis that causes pain in the bottom of the foot every step you take. It's pretty phenomenal Pujols played as well as he did through it.
      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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      • #48
        No matter what your opinion is on these two, it's a shame they used. Because we will never know what was gained by using, what the numbers would have been if clean.
        Would have been great to have seen two of the greatest in our time, all time, retire and be celebrated walking into the HOF.
        All they did was muddy the waters....................we will never know.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
          No matter what your opinion is on these two, it's a shame they used. Because we will never know what was gained by using, what the numbers would have been if clean.
          Would have been great to have seen two of the greatest in our time, all time, retire and be celebrated walking into the HOF.
          All they did was muddy the waters....................we will never know.
          Everyone who was part of the 1998 McGwire/Sosa lovefest has to take some of the blame.

          Also, if Bonds never roided, Mac and Sosa would probably be heroes today. that is why it's all such a big shitshow
          This week's Giant

          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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          • #50
            At a minimum, Bonds is the #2 all-time left fielder and Clemens a top-5 all-time pitcher, without steroids. That's their floor.

            Their ceiling, on the other hand, is that both are elected to the Hall of Fame in 2013, their first time in front of the BBWAA, considerably easing the bottleneck of the past seven years.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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            • #51
              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

              Everyone who was part of the 1998 McGwire/Sosa lovefest has to take some of the blame.

              Also, if Bonds never roided, Mac and Sosa would probably be heroes today. that is why it's all such a big shitshow
              Agree. I can tell you as a fan of the game going back before 1998, I never considered it a lovefest as so many did.
              Something was not right here, Mac hitting a home run every 8.17 at bats over multiple seasons 1996-97-98 and take it over 4 seasons 1996-97-98-99 every 8.13 at bats. Ruth could hold that average over one season. Sammy hitting 60 plus in 3 of 4 season......................something smells here, I wasn't in love or fooled. Later we found out how they did it.
              One other aid was the joke of the strike zone that the umps lowered to just above the belt in the mid 1990s.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                At a minimum, Bonds is the #2 all-time left fielder and Clemens a top-5 all-time pitcher, without steroids. That's their floor.
                Do you believe that at his low end Bonds undoubtedly is better than Stan the Man?

                Since its that time of year
                Do they still play the blues in Chicago, when baseball season rolls around?
                When the snow melts away, do the Chi-Sox still play, in horribly named burial ground?


                Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                  At a minimum, Bonds is the #2 all-time left fielder and Clemens a top-5 all-time pitcher, without steroids. That's their floor.

                  Their ceiling, on the other hand, is that both are elected to the Hall of Fame in 2013, their first time in front of the BBWAA, considerably easing the bottleneck of the past seven years.
                  There is no bottleneck. Every obvious non-PED connected player who has been up in that time has been elected or is on the way to it. The bottleneck thesis died with the Glavine-Maddux-Thomas class.

                  Also, as I've stated numerous times, I don't think a prospective clean Clemens, limping to a 250-260 win career by throwing junk and finessing it for the final few years, makes the grade as a top 5 career guy. A likely HOFer on peak but hardly the monster he appears to be with a decade of chemical help.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post

                    There is no bottleneck. Every obvious non-PED connected player who has been up in that time has been elected or is on the way to it. The bottleneck thesis died with the Glavine-Maddux-Thomas class.

                    Also, as I've stated numerous times, I don't think a prospective clean Clemens, limping to a 250-260 win career by throwing junk and finessing it for the final few years, makes the grade as a top 5 career guy. A likely HOFer on peak but hardly the monster he appears to be with a decade of chemical help.
                    Greg Maddux was better anyhow. I liked watching Clemens pitch. He had that Bob Gibson attitude towards batters. For instance the bat throwing incident in the World Series no less. What a legendary moment. Clemens instantly regretted it with the "I thought it was the ball" comment... and apparently thought they were playing wiffle ball and tried to drill Piazza. Was there previous beef with Piazza?
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                      Was there previous beef with Piazza?
                      Yeah, he conked him on the helmet earlier that same season.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                        Yeah, he conked him on the helmet earlier that same season.
                        I do recall that now that you mention it. Clemens was always prone to throwing inside whether it was simply part of the competition and/or to right perceived wrongs.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                          Clemens was always prone to throwing inside whether it was simply part of the competition and/or to right perceived wrongs.
                          He's about the only guy I can ever remember admitting it (when he hit Reggie Jefferson as part of an ongoing thing in '92.)

                          I liked Clemens when he was in Boston. It was only after he went to New York that I started to really see what a scuzz he actually was. No one seems to remember it but he was widely detested by the media when he was with the Red Sox. Look back at how hard he got raked over the coals in 1990 when Terry Cooney had that umpshow game and tossed him in the ALCS.

                          When he put on the pinstripes, all the things that had been filed under the rubric of sociopathic behavior suddenly morphed into "competitiveness" and "determination."
                          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post

                            He's about the only guy I can ever remember admitting it (when he hit Reggie Jefferson as part of an ongoing thing in '92.)

                            I liked Clemens when he was in Boston. It was only after he went to New York that I started to really see what a scuzz he actually was. No one seems to remember it but he was widely detested by the media when he was with the Red Sox. Look back at how hard he got raked over the coals in 1990 when Terry Cooney had that umpshow game and tossed him in the ALCS.

                            When he put on the pinstripes, all the things that had been filed under the rubric of sociopathic behavior suddenly morphed into "competitiveness" and "determination."
                            Happened to Ted Williams too. Don't get me wrong Clemens seems like he is probably a stereotypical meathead, jerk of a jock in real life. But I like his attitude on the mound. It was his goal to be a great pitcher and I think he was willing to sacrifice his personal life it meant he had the right attitude to be a great pitcher. Clemens wasn't a young dominant prodigy. He wasn't much of a prospect until he was about 20. He had to work hard to become as good as he did. His alcoholic brother pushed him hard and moved him to Texas for the competition, he got coached up by Wayne Graham in junior college, made it to University of Texas and tore through the minors with a couple scuffles. He definitely had a chip on his shoulder well before he got to the majors.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by willshad View Post
                              How much did the steroids really help Clemens? His Yankee years were pretty ho hum. Bonds became a whole different player in his mid 30s, while Clemens had a pretty normal decline.

                              Age 36-40:

                              Bonds...254 OPS+

                              Clemens...114 ERA+

                              I don't feel the two players can even be remotely grouped together when it comes to steroids or their benefits.

                              I feel Bonds would have ended up with final numbers pretty close to Jim Thome without the steroids.
                              Clemens could have been using his whole career ala Mcgwire or Arod. Bonds too for that matter.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by fenrir View Post

                                Clemens could have been using his whole career ala Mcgwire or Arod. Bonds too for that matter.
                                Then his lack of consistency makes even less sense.

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