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**ElHalo** · 03-01-2004, 11:05 PM

A Team:

1B - Lou Gherig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - Pie Traynor
SS - Honus Wagner
LF - Babe Ruth
CF - Willie Mays
RF - Joe Jackson
1C - Yogi Berra
2C - Josh Gibson
SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Christy Mathewson
SP - Sandy Koufax
SP - Mordecai Peter Centennial Brown
SP - Lefty Grove
RP - Bob Feller
RP - Bob Gibson
RP - Mariano Rivera
DH: - Ted Williams
Manager - Connie Mack
Assistant manager - Miller Huggins
Utility (since they're utility guys, I'm going to focus primarily on the types of things utility guys do... defense, pinch running, pinch hitting, rather than just have the best available player slot in).

U: Oscar Charleston
U: Rickey Henderson
U: Jackie Robinson
U: Ozzie Smith

B Team

1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Joe Morgan
3B - Pepper Martin (I'd be willing to enter into a debate over the reasoning behind this choice with anyone who'd like)
SS - Alex Rodriguez
LF - Mickey Mantle
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Ty Cobb
1C - Roy Campanella
2C - Bill Dickey
SP - Grover Cleveland Alexander
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Carl Hubbell
SP - Pedro Martinez
SP - Dizzy Dean
RP - Satchell Paige
RP - Whitey Ford (this was my absolute last pick, and it came down to him and Waddell... I figured I'd go with Ford since somebody already mentioned Waddell).
RP - Denis Eckersley
DH: - Mark McGwire
Manager - Casey Stengel
Assistant manager - John McGraw
U: Cool Papa Bell
U: Bill Mazeroski
U: Joe Cronin
U: Al Kaline

**improbus** · 03-02-2004, 07:46 AM

well, here goes. Keep in mind that I'm an impressionistic baseball fan, not really a numbers guy.
Team A
1B-Gherig
2B-Morgan
3B-Matthews
SS-Wagner
LF-Bonds
CF-Cobb
RF-Ruth
C-Bench
C-Rodriguez
SP-Gibson
SP-Dean
SP-Feller
SP-Paige
SP-Clemens
SP-Spahn
SP-Alexander
RP-Eckersley
DH-Ted Williams
Manager-McGraw
Asst.-Sparky
U-Cronin
U-Hornsby
U-Jackie Rob.
U-Frank Rob.

Team B

1B-Foxx
2B-Lajoie
3B-Schmidt
SS-Rodgriguez
LF-Musial
CF-Mays
RF-Aaron
C-Gibson
C-Lombardi
SP-Walter Johnson
SP-Cy Young
SP-Pedro
SP-Carlton
SP-Smokey Joe Williams
SP-Roberts
SP-Maddux
RP-Rivera
DH-Ricky
Manager-Mack
Asst.-McCarthy
U-Charleston, Mantle, DiMaggio, King Kelly

I hope you don't take too much exception to this list. I'm sure I've overlooked some and overvalued others, but then again, this is TOTALLY arbitrary (especially if you don't care too much for numbers)

**RuthMayBond** · 03-02-2004, 08:12 AM

I don't know what SRP is? You didn't say if this is a team we are going to keep together with everyone coming in as rookies, or whether we should use peak value or what. Yeah I know, I waffled on a couple

A team (of course I'm gonna cram as many good guys on this as possible, leaving B team's pitchers a little worse)
1B-Gehrig
2B-Lajoie
3B-Schmidt
SS-Wagner
LF-Bonds
CF-Cobb/Mays
RF-Ruth
1C-JGibson
2C-Berra
SP-WJohnson
SP-LGrove
SP-PAlexander
SP-Clemens
SP-Paige
RP-CMathewson
RP-Nichols
RP-Seaver
DH-Hornsby/TWilliams
MGR-Alston or B. Martin (but keep him away from the starters)
UT-Mantle,Charleston,Musial,Speaker

B team:
1B-Foxx
2B-ECollins/Morgan
3B-Brett
SS-PLloyd/Ripken/Vaughan
LF-TWilliams/must put Speaker somewhere
CF-Mays/Cobb
RF-Aaron
1C-Bench
2C-Cochrane
SP-CYoung
SP-Maddux
SP-Feller
SP-Spahn
SP-Gibson
RP-Eckersley (more traditional closers)
RP-Wilhelm
RP-Rivera
RP-do I have to do anymore?
DH-McGwire?
MGR-Weaver/Valentine
UT-Dihigo

**BillyF29** · 03-02-2004, 02:29 PM

A Team:

1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Ty Cobb
RF: Babe Ruth
C: Johnny Bench
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Sandy Koufax
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Cy Young
SP: Pedro Martinez
Closer: Dennis Eckersly
DH: Barry Bonds
Manager: Connie Mack
Asst. Manager: Sparky Anderson

B Team:

1B: Jimmie Foxx
2B: Joe Morgan
3B: Pie Traynor
SS: Alex Rodriguez
LF: Stan Musial
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Hank Aaron
C: Yogi Berra
SP: Tom Seaver
SP: Nolan Ryan
SP: Pete Alexander
SP: Bob Gibson
Closer: Mariano Rivera
DH: Rogers Hornsby
Manager: Casey Stengel
Asst. Manager: Tony LaRussa

**The Dude** · 03-02-2004, 03:28 PM

Many of you probably know I love deciding things by the numbers, and while I still considered numbers with this one, I decided to go on personal feelings as well. I'm prepared to be flamed for some of my more glaring absences.

A Team-

C-Johnny Bench
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-Mike Schmidt
SS-Honus Wagner
LF-Stan Musial
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Hank Aaron
SP-Roger Clemens
SP-Pete Alexander
SP-Walter Johnson
SP-Randy Johnson
Long Relief-Hoyt Wilhelm
Short Relief-Dan Quisenberry
Short Relief-Trevor Hoffman
Closer-Mariano Rivera
DH-Paul Molitor
Utility-Rogers Hornsby
Utility-Ty Cobb
Utility-Jimmie Foxx
Utility-Alex Rodriguez
Backup Catcher-Yogi Berra
Manager-Casey Stengal
Assistant Manager-Joe Torre

B (for backup) Team-

C-Mike Piazza
1B-Jeff Bagwell
2B-Eddie Collins
3B-George Brett
SS-Robin Yount
LF-Ted Williams
CF-Mickey Mantle
RF-Babe Ruth
SP-Carl Hubbell
SP-Warren Spahn
SP-Lefty Grove
SP-
Long Relief-Kid Nichols
Short Relief-Joe McGinnity
Short Relief-Whitey Ford
Closer-Hoyt Wilhelm
DH-Edgar Martinez
Utility-Jake Beckley
Utility-Mike Schmidt
Utility-Stan Musial
Utility-Hank Aaron
Backup Catcher-Carlton Fisk
Manager-Tony La Russa
Assistant Manager-Connie Mack

**Zeth** · 03-02-2004, 03:57 PM

OK, Zeth's All-Time team, as of today. Bill, it's not *exactly* the format you asked for, but I wrote it for other purposes in addition to this board and I wanted to include the explanations, so I hope you'll let me slide with that.

Everything that's on your team is on mine, though, except the DHs.

A TEAM

CATCHER: Josh Gibson. Gibson was one of the great sluggers in the history of baseball, and was also regarded as a good defensive catcher despite his great size. Everyone who saw him was in awe of him. I have little doubt that he was the greatest catcher in the history of the game.

FIRST BASE: Lou Gehrig. I think Lou's pretty far ahead of his competition. He was lethal with the stick, of course, and ranks among the all-time leaders in OBP, and he also played a good first base. Very consistent, as well, combining the virtues of a consistently excellent career and a very high peak.

SECOND BASE: Eddie Collins. Collins was one of the very best players in the history of the game at doing the "little things," and one of the smartest players baseball has seen. This in itself is not, contrary to popular opinion, enough to make a man an all-timer -- but it sure is when you could hit, run and field like Collins could. He was the total package.

SHORTSTOP: Honus Wagner, obviously.

THIRD BASE: Mike Schmidt. I don't think he was the glove wizard reflected in the gold glove voting -- the voters tend to pick one guy and keep giving to them until they find a real good reason not to -- but he was certainly an excellent defensive third baseman. And his offensive numbers, in an era that was close to historical norms, speak for themselves.

LEFT FIELD: Ted Williams. Possibly the greatest pure hitter in baseball history. Average to above average in fielding and running. Rates a distinct edge over Musial in my mind.

CENTER FIELD: Ty Cobb and Willie Mays, platooning. As I read all the arguments presented in these forums, as well as my own personal analysis and study, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Mays probably deserves to rate one notch ahead Cobb as the #2 player in history, Cobb third and Wagner fourth. I know you won't like that, Bill, but forgive me. Willie did everything Cobb could do. Cobb might have been the greatest baserunner in history -- but Willie Mays has to be one of the five greatest. He was phenomenal on the basepaths. Mays is the superior fielder. I think they rate about even as hitters. All things considered, I think Mays is a tiny squeak better, just a tad. Not enough to deny Ty Cobb a lineup spot, though. So I'll platoon them on my all-time team.

RIGHT FIELD: Babe Ruth.

EXTRA CATCHER: Johnny Bench. Bench was an all-time great as a defensive catcher, and also one of the five or ten best offensive catchers ever. If you look up "catcher" in the dictionary, there ought to be a picture of Johnny Bench.

EXTRA INFIELDERS: Joe Morgan and Alex Rodriguez. Morgan could do anything. He was fast as the wind, played outstanding defense, and had a sky-high OBP despite his mediocre average. A-Rod is the second-greatest shortstop ever, right now.

EXTRA OUTFIELDERS: I'll pick just one for this team since I have two CFs already, and it's Mickey Mantle. He had a lot of the same skills as Willie Mays (meaning, he was outstanding at everything), but injuries kept his career from being quite as great as Willie's. He did have a fantastic career, though.

STARTING PITCHERS:

Satchel Paige. I believe Satch was the greatest pitcher in history. At his best, I believe he could pitch with anyone, including Grove, Koufax, or Martinez, who had the best peaks. And of course, Satch pitched for so long that he made Nolan Ryan's career seem brief by comparison, and pitched well, even into his fifties. Satch had a fastball as good as Walter Johnson's, a lethal changeup, good curve, and uncanny control. Pete Alexander is a poor man's Satchel Paige, if that makes you understand him better. If I had to pick one pitcher at his absolute peak to win one game for me tomorrow... I would probably take Pedro or Grove, but Satchel would be in the running. If I had to pick one pitcher to have for his entire career, beginning to end, I think Satch is the obvious chioce and not even Walter can top him.

Walter Johnson. Among pitchers who actually did pitch most of their careers in the major leagues, Walter rates as the best. His contemporaries are almost unanimous about this (well, outside of New York, anyway, where, as Rob Neyer wrote, they "would have given Matty credit for the sun coming up each morning, if they thought they could get away with it", and we certainly don't have any evidence now that would make us doubt them.

Tom Seaver. This may be my most controversial choice on my A team. I believer Seaver is the greatest post-WWII pitcher, him or Spahn, who I certainly don't want to slight. This is somewhat obscured by the fact that he pitched for some bad teams, but he was really outstanding for a real long time. While the best players haven't gotten any better over time, I think it's pretty clear that the worst ones have; that is, the average or mediocre players have gotten a lot better through the years, and that has caused the overall quality of competition to increase. If you believe this to be at least somewhat true, then Seaver seems quite deserving to be placed among the greatest pitchers ever. And it does seem to me like at least one of the greatest pitchers ever would be in the last 50 years.

Lefty Grove. I want a lefthanded pitcher in my all-time team's rotation, and I believe Lefty Grove, again, ranks just ahead of Warren Spahn as the best lefty in history. He's Pedro Martinez, only much more durable.

LONG RELIEVERS: Warren Spahn and Pete Alexander.

ANY KIND OF RELIEVER YOU NEED HIM FOR: Hoyt Wilhelm. I was going to pick a short reliever (really a second closer), but Hoyt could do anything, in addition to being one of the greatest closers ever.

CLOSER: Goose Gossage. I believe Gossage is the greatest reliever in history, all things considered.

MANAGER: Connie Mack.
ASST. MANAGER: Joe McCarthy.

So that's the A Team. Now for the B team:

CATCHER: Yogi Berra. Yogi's ability to catch competently, hit as well as any catcher ever this side of Mike Piazza, and be amazingly consistent give him the edge over Mickey Cochrane's 2/3 of a brilliant career.

FIRST BASE: Mark McGwire. McGwire was as devestating an offensive force as has ever played the game, and despite his several off-seasons, his good seasons are so good that I think he belongs here. Rates an edge over Jimmie Foxx because he and Foxx are similar players, and I believe McGwire is a little better.

FIRST BASE IF YOU DQ MCGWIRE FOR STEROIDS: Jimmie Foxx.

SECOND BASE: Rogers Hornsby. Ranks behind Collins and Morgan, but no one else is even in the same galaxy as Hornsby at 2B after that, despite his poor defense.

SHORTSTOP: Cal Ripken. Our dominating images of Ripken now are his streak, and the fact that he hung on as a mediocre player for three or four years. This obscures what a great player he really was. He was the greatest hitting shortstop ever, this side of Wagner and Rodriguez, and he was an outstanding fielder as well. We seem to tend not to believe Ripken was all that great a defensive SS, because we have Phil Rizzuto and Luis Aparicio and Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel in our head now as the image of a good defensive SS, a little tiny guy who darts around and dives a lot. But Ripken had excellent range because he played as deep as any shortstop ever has, and had a howitzer arm.

THIRD BASE: George Brett. Home Run Baker here was originally going to be my choice, and he'd be a good one, but I decided to give the edge to Brett after accounting for the fact that the Baker Bowl heavily boosted Baker's power numbers. Brett did it all offensively and was adequate defensively. You could argue for him over Schmidt if you really like batting average and making contact.

LEFT FIELD: Barry Bonds. Actually, if you take Bonds' achievements at face value and don't worry about the steroids question marks, I think Bonds actually rates ahead of Ted Williams as the greatest LF in history. Even reverting his juiced 2001-2003 years to his career averages, what you basically have is Ted Williams, plus far superior baserunning and defense to Williams'. Bonds is legitimately one of the greatest players who ever lived. I discount ed him a bit and put him behind Williams, because I am convinced that Bonds has been on steroids since about 1999. But he's a great player even without them.

CENTER FIELD: Oscar Charleston. Charleston was a kind of combination of the best qualities of Babe Ruth and Willie Mays, if you can imagine that. He was phenomenal, by all accounts. Many observers, including a lot of respected white baseball men, including men who'd seen Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth and Willie Mays for themselves, said Charleston was the greatest player they ever saw. I may be underrating him by putting Mantle on the A team ahead of him.

RIGHT FIELD: Henry Aaron ranks far ahead of any other RF for this spot.

EXTRA CATCHER: Mickey Cochrane. I can't think of anything to say about him, really. He obviously was a great player before the beaning.

EXTRA INFIELDERS: Home Run Baker and Arky Vaughan. Even acknowledging that Baker's park inflated his home run numbers, he was a genuinely great player. Third base was a glove man's position in his day, and he was an excellent glove in addition to being an offensive force. Vaughan is eerily forgotten considering how genuinely great he was. I'll take his great bat and adequate glove over Ozzie's great glove and adequate bat. Ernie Banks is very overrated.

EXTRA OUTFIELDERS: Stan Musial and Tris Speaker. Speaker was a poor man's Ty Cobb, Musial was just, well, the man.

UTILITY MAN: Buck Ewing. I don't want to list him as a catcher because he played all over the place, but I think he has a legitimate claim to being the greatest 19th century player ever, him or Cap Anson.

STARTING PITCHERS:

Cy Young. Not much to say about him than has already been said. Unbelievable durability and was a greatly feared pitcher in his day.

Roger Clemens. I really can't stand him, but he's right with Seaver and Spahn as the greatest of the post-WWII era. I rate him a little ahead of Gibson, Marichal and Koufax because those guys pitched in the 60s, when conditions were very heavily in favor of the pitchers. I think dead-ball era pitchers as a whole are a little overrated, and 1960s pitchers are too.

Christy Mathewson. Greg Maddux is a poor man's Christy Mathewson. One of the smartest pitchers ever (He, Walter, Spahn, Robin Roberts, Bob Gibson, and Maddux are the real standouts in history as unusually intelligent pitchers), excellent control of all kinds of pitches.

Pedro Martinez. A right-handed Koufax; if he has a good year this year, that will be enough in my mind to rate him distinctly ahead of Koufax. Juan Marichal would be a poor man's Pedro.

LONG RELIEVERS: Sandy Koufax and Ol' Hoss Radbourn. Ol' Hoss was the greatest pitcher of the 19th century, if you count Cy Young in the 20th; Ol' Hoss or Kid Nichols. Koufax, you all know about. I think I have him rated about right.

SHORT RELIEVERS: Dan Quisenberry and Bruce Sutter. I just can't choose between the two. Different pitchers but had similar careers. Well, everybody's a different pitcher from Dan Quisenberry. He was one of a kind. Firpo Marberry had an awesome career. I don't know enough about him to rate him with any confidence, so I need to do some more research there.

CLOSER: Dennis Eckersley. You all know about him. Sensational for a period of 5-6 years, and pitched effectively forever.

MANAGER: John McGraw.
ASST. MANAGER: Earl Weaver.

Well, there it is. In no particular order, some guys I really cringe to leave off the team include Cap Anson, Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith, Jackie Robinson, Eddie Mathews, Greg Maddux, Kid Nichols, Bob Gibson (I went with Koufax over him, but it was hard), Pop Lloyd and Cool Papa Bell. Managers I wish I could get on my teams include Stengel and Whitey Herzog. But this is a crowded list, isn't it?

Here, I'll list it in short form, in case that helps

A TEAM

1B - L. Gehrig
2B - E. Collins
3B - M. Schmidt
SS - H. Wagner
LF - T. Williams
CF - W. Mays
RF - B. Ruth
1C - J. Gibson
2C - J. Bench
SP - S. Paige
SP - W. Johnson
SP - T. Seaver
SP - L. Grove
LRP - W. Spahn
SRP - P. Alexander
SRP - H. Wilhelm
RA - G. Gossage
Manager: C. Mack
Asst. Manager: J. McCarthy
Utility: A. Rodriguez, J. Morgan, T. Cobb, M. Mantle

B TEAM

1B - M. McGwire
2B - R. Hornsby
3B - G. Brett
SS - C. Ripken
LF - B. Bonds
CF - O. Charleston
RF - H. Aaron
1C - Y. Berra
2C - M. Cochrane
SP - C. Young
SP - R. Clemens
SP - C. Mathewson
SP - P. Martinez
LRP - S. Koufax
SRP - C. Radbourn
SRP - D. Quisenberry
(SRP - B. Sutter)
RA - D. Eckersley
Manager- J. McGraw
Asst. Manager - E. Weaver
Utility - A. Vaughan, F. Baker, S. Musial, T. Speaker

No DH's.

**Kroxquo** · 03-02-2004, 05:46 PM

My team. I am prepared to be pilloried.

A Team
C - Hannibal
1B - Face
2B - B. A. Barracas
Oh wait, that's the wrong A Team. Let me try this again

1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - George Brett
SS - Honus Wagner
LF - Stan Musial
CF - Ty Cobb
RF - Babe Ruth
1C - Mike Piazza
2C - Yogi Berra
SP - Christy Mathewson
SP - Cy Young
SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Grover Alexander
LRP - Roger Clemens
SRP - Lefty Grove
SRP - Warren Spahn
Closer - Dennis Eckersley
There shall be no DH on any all time that I have anything to do with

Manager - Joe McCarthy
Asst. Manager - John McGraw

Utility - Henry Aaron, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Napoleon Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer

B Team

1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Eddie Collins
3B - Mike Schmidt
SS - Cal Ripken
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Mel Ott
1C - Bill Dickey
2C - Johnny Bench
SP - Greg Maddux
SP - Tom Seaver
SP - John Clarkson
SP - Satchel Paige
LRP - Randy Johnson
SRP - Steve Carlton
SRP - Eddie Plank
Closer - Hoyt Wilhelm

Manager - Casey Stengel
Asst Manager - Leo Durocher
Util - Mickey Mantle, Frank Robinson, Oscar Charleston, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs

**Eddie Collins** · 03-03-2004, 03:51 PM

A Team

Rotation:
1.Walter Johnson
2.Lefty Grove
3.Cy Young
4.Roger Clemens

Bullpen:
LRP: Sandy Koufax
SRP:Christy Matthewson
SRP:Joe Williams
Closer:Bob Feller

C:Josh Gibson
1B:Lou Gehrig
2B:Eddie Collins
SS:Honus Wagner
3B:Mike Schmidt
OF:Willie Mays
OF:Henry Aaron
OF:Ty Cobb

2C:Johnny Bench
DH: Ted Williams
Util: Joe Morgan, Babe Ruth, Pop Lloyd, Tris Speaker

Mgr: John McGraw
Ast. MGR: Sparky Anderson

B Team:

Rotation:
1.Grover Alexander
2.Tom Seaver
3.Bob Gibson
4.Satchel Paige

Pen:
LRP: GregMaddux
SRP: Kid Nichols
SRP: Bullet Joe Rogan
Closer: Addie Joss

C:Yogi Berra
1B:Jimmie Foxx
2B: Nap Lajoie
SS: Willie Wells
3B: George Brett
OF:Mel Ott
OF: Oscar Charleston
OF: Mickey Mantle

2C: Ivan Rodriguez
Util: Bill Wright, Rogers Hornaby, Buck Ewing, Tony Gwynn

Mgr: Connie Mack
Ast Mgr: Ned Hanlon

**catcher24** · 03-07-2004, 11:56 AM

Been several days since anyone placed their teams on the site. Maybe too late and no one is interested, but here are mine. As Mr. Burgess did not say if this is based on peak or career value, I based my picks on career value. Some of these would change if I based on peak value.

A Team

Rotation:
1. Walter Johnson - Simply the best, IMHO.
2. Lefty Grove - Best of the southpaws.
3. Grover C. Alexander - Winning % compared to teams is the highest ever, I believe I read in a thread today. Actually made me reconsider my view on Walter, but Walter was a positive influence.
4. Rube Waddell - Wanted two lefties in the rotation, or this place might go to S. Paige or C. Mathewson. If not for his child-like mind and rather short career, may have put up even larger numbers. I will assign Walter to watch over him.

Bullpen:
LRP: Addie Joss - Unfortunate that his life ended so tragically. Could have put up astonishing numbers, and still had tremendous stats.
SRP/Utility: Martin Dihigo - Pitched marvelously, but also played every other position and was a terrific hitter, too. Led his Mexican League in 1938 in both ERA (0.90) and batting (.387).
Randy Johnson: I don't think too many lefties will be happy to see the Big Unit coming on in short relief - or right handed hitters, for that matter! When I need a big K, he'll be ready.
Closer: Hoty Wilhelm- Had a long, excellent career. After seeing my starters and middle men, batters won't know what to do with Hoyt's floater!

C: Yogi Berra - 3 MVP's, leader of numerous Yankee championship teams.
1B: Lou Gehrig - The Iron Horse is one of my two all time favorite players. Even if he wasn't, he still belongs here - tremendous power and never misses a game.
2B: Eddie Collins - An on base machine, with good power and an excellent glove. Speed not too shabby, either (just nudges out Little Joe).
3B: Mike Schmidt - Tremendous power, 10 gold gloves. What's not to like?
SS: Honus Wagner - I know I won't get any argument from anyone here. Arguably the best player ever.
LF: Ty Cobb - Hitting, speed, defense. Had to put him in.
CF: Willie Mays - My other favorite player of all time. He belongs here anyway. I grew up watching Willie play. You could see his love for the game and being on the field. He was a joy to see!
RF: Babe Ruth - Better than Cobb? Big argument going on in two or three threads, but I'll gladly have him in my starting lineup.

Backup Catcher: Johnny Bench - Considered him seriously as the starter, but Yogi did it for a longer time. If I was using peak value, Johnny would start.
DH: Ted Williams - Probably the best pure hitter to ever play. Too bad no one could get him more interested in other phases of the game, but he'll do great at DH - all he had to do is hit (and run a little). Sure would like to know what the stats would look like without the missing years!

Utility: Joe Morgan - Thought seriously about starting him, but Eddie squeezed him out.
Utility: Stan Musial - Got to get The Man on the first team. Even with his huge numbers, he is so frequently overlooked. Yeah, Sportsman's park probably helped some, but this guy could hit anywhere.
Utility: Buck Ewing - Played all over, and had good pop and great speed.
Utility: Tris Speaker - Can't believe Tris (along with Stan) as backups! Would it be great to have this team, or what.

Playing Manager: Al Lopez - Excellent manager. Only manager able to get a team home in front of the Yankee juggernaut of the 1950's. Pretty good catcher, too, if one of the others gets hurt.
Asst. Playing Manager: Fred Clarke - Won over 1600 games as a manager, and put up great offensive numbers. Don't know how much he'll play on THIS team, though (but he is the assistant manager, so who knows).

B Team

Rotation:
1. Christy Mathewson - Hate to put him on the B squad.
2. Tom Seaver - Second highest winning percentage compared to team.
3. Warren Spahn - Had to have the winningest lefty in history on the team somewhere.
4. Satchel Paige - Probably an easy 300 game winner had he been allowed to pitch in the majors. Too bad we'll never know.
Pen:
LRP: Steve Carlton - Tremendous career and stats. Unhittable slider when it was working.
SRP: Roger Clemens - Brings smoke and an attitude to the mound.
SRP: Smokey Joe Williams - Another Negro Leaguer who would have won many, many games if not for skin color.
Closer: Bob Feller - 300 wins and 3000 K's if not for the war? Something else we'll never know. Just edges out Goose Gossage.

C: Ivan Rodriguez - Not finished yet. By end of career, might work up to A team.
1B: Jimmie Foxx - Another feared slugger from the 30's. Put up incredible numbers, even adjusted for the era.
2B: Nap Lajoie - His glove brings him in ahead of Hornsby, but just barely.
3B: George Brett - Edges out Matthews. Maybe because I watched him play and mostly read about Matthews.
SS: Alex Redriguez - Yeah, the career is young yet, but the stats are very impressive, even adjusted for the era. Getting leftfielder stats from a SS, and an excellent fielding SS, too. Thanks to George, might have to move him to 3B.
OF: Barry Bonds - 600 HR, 500SB, ungodly OPS. I don't like him, but give the devil his due.
OF: Oscar Charleston - Had to get the player many consider the best Negro League player ever on one of these teams. Another tremendous player who never got to show his stuff. Branch Rickey appreciated him - Oscar helped Rickey in his decision as to which black player should be the one to break the color barrier.
OF: Mickey Mantle - If this little exercise were based on peak value, the Mick goes to the A team. Too many injuries.
DH: Hank Greenberg - I think a rather underrated player. Also lost some prime years to WWII, or probably over 400 HR.

Backup Catcher: Josh Gibson - Greatest HR hitter in Negro League history. Could easily play on the A team (as could any of these).

Utility: Bobby Grich - IMO a very underrated player. Put up very respectable numbers in a pitcher's era. Career OPS+ of 125.
Utility: Rogers Hornsby - Had to get the greatest RH hitter ever on here somewhere.
Utility: Frankie Frisch - Could play all over the infield and could hit a little,too.
Utility: Mel Ott - Greatest NL homerun hitter for many years. Good fielder, too.

Manager: Walter Alston - Only signed one year contracts, but eventually signed 23 of them.
Asst. Manager: Frank Selee - Excellent manager from an earlier era.

**nightal** · 03-07-2004, 10:30 PM

A Team
1B-Gehrig
2b-Hornsby
3b-Schmidt
SS-Wagner
OF-Ruth
OF-Musial
OF-Mays
DH-Williams
CA-Bench

SP-Johnson
SP-Gibson
SP-Grove
SP-Alexander
RP-Sutter

B Team
1B-Foxx
2B-Lajoie
3B-Mathews
SS-Vaughan
OF-Aaron
OF-Speaker
OF-Cobb
DH-Bonds
CA-Berra

SP-Clemens
SP-Seaver
SP-Carlton
SP-Mathewson
RP-Eckersley

**Bill Burgess** · 03-09-2004, 02:50 PM

I don't care if Rube's '03, '07-08 seasons were dominant or not. There are more important things in life than being good at baseball.

Rube was my very first favorite player, before I hardly knew who Ty Cobb was. Rube was so pure and lovable, that I don't know how you coundn't love him. He had a heart of pure gold.

The only surprising thing to me is how a man who was likely a high-functionging autistic, could hold his attention on one thing long enough to master its intricacies. Pitching requires a very high degree of BB smarts. And I've read a very few folks, I think it was Mack, call the Rube a pitching genius at mixing his pitches.

We were very lucky to have Rube hang around as long as he did, instead of focusing on his weaknesses, such as autism and alcoholism. He did prove his mettle, when, at the premature end of his life, he stood in freezing waters up to his armpits for a full day, to save a town, whose banks had overflooded. He did that while helping the townspeople pack sandbags on their levee.

Now that impresses me more than a career of dominant seasons.
The beautiful child-clown paid for it with his life, as he contracted TB and died not long after. BB showed it's appreciation by paying for a stone marker on his grave in San Antonio. We're a generous lot, are we not?

Bill Burgess

**leecemark** · 04-14-2004, 02:15 PM

dh ted williams - argueably best pure hitter ever
c yogi berra - most consistent and biggest winner
1b lou gehrig - ditto
2b joe morgan - best overall package
3b mike schmidt - no contest
ss honus wagner - arod his 1st challenger in 100 years
lf barry bonds - rivals ruth for #1
cf ty cobb - dominated deadball, would be great today
rf babe ruth - the greatest ever
c johnny bench - more talented than berra, but less consistent
c/ph mike piazza - hitting matters most for 3rd catcher
if alex rodreguiz - heading for ruth, bonds, cobb country
if rogers hornby - best hitting IF? or arod?
of willie mays - did it all and for a long time
of hank aaron -who better to spell the babe against tough lefties
sp walter johnson - very high and long lasting peak
sp lefty grove - even higher peak, not quite as long
sp cy young -pretty high peak, lasted forever
sp roger clemens - depending on era adj, could be #1
sp warren spaun - comparable to cy young for his time
rp goose gossage - most dominating ever
rp mariano rivera - best post season pitcher (not so bad reg)
rp sparky lyle - maybe i ought to put koufax in pen i
p ed walsh - personal favorite, but truely great
p dennis eckersly -not reall top 10, as isn't lyle, but unique in level of acheivement as starter then reliever

**Imapotato** · 04-14-2004, 04:16 PM

Team A
C- Yogi Berra
1B- Lou Gehrig
2b-Eddie Collins
3b HR Baker - many don't know he held ALL 3B records until Pie Traynor broke some...then Brooks Robinson broke the rest
SS-Honus
LF Barry Bonds
CF- Ty Cobb
RF-Babe Ruth
C2-Ray Schalk #1 in fielding for a reason
OF The Rickey
OF Mays
OF Teddy W
IF Hornsby
IF Schmidt

SP-Cy Young
SP Walter Johnson
SP- Lefty Grove
SP - Pedro Martinez

RP-Pete Alexander
RP-Big Six
RP- Spahn
RP- Carlton
Rp Seaver
Closer- Clemens

THAT team will beat anyone

TEAM B
C- Bench
1b-Sisler
2b-Jackie Robinson
3b- Pie Traynor
SS- Alex Rodriguez
LF- Sheery Magee
CF- Tris Speaker
RF- Ed Delahanty
c2- Johnny Kling (best defensive C...if only he didn't love billards!)
Utility
OF -Sosa
OF- Musial
1B - Foxx
IF - Lazzeri
IF - Pie Traynor

SP- Addie Joss
SP- Sandy Koufax
SP- Ed Walsh
SP- Smokey Joe Woods

RP- Hoyt Wilhelm
RP- Henry Schmidt (don't know who he is? Well he was a poor man's Big Six but quite baseball because he didn't like living in Brooklyn)
RP- Greg Maddux
RP- Curt Schilling
RP- Randy Johnson

Closer Rube Waddell

Not bad...

**julusnc** · 06-14-2004, 10:51 AM

Man oh man what choices face me.I have been a huge baseball fan since the mid 1970's and I thrive on making lists and arguing about the greatness of my favorite players.

First Team All-Stars

catcher - Josh Gibson
first base - Loh Gehrig
second base - Nap Lajoie
shortstop - Honus Wagner
third base - Mike Schmidt
outfield - Ty Cobb
outfield - Willie Mays
outfield - Babe Ruth
dh - Ted Williams
utility - Jimmie Foxx
utility - Yogi Berra
utility - Barry Bonds
utility - Mickey Mantle
utility - Stan Musial

starting pitcher - Walter Johnson
starting pitcher - Christy Mathewson
starting pitcher - Warren Spahn
starting pitcher - Cy Young
starting pitcher - Roger Clemens

relief pitcher - Grover Cleveland Alexander
relief pitcher - Lefty Grove
relief pitcher - Nolan Ryan
relief pitcher - Sandy Koufax
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second Team All-Stars

catcher - Johnny Bench
first base - Oscar Charleston
second base - Rogers Hornsby
shortstop - Alex Rodriguez
third base - Pie Traynor
outfield - Al Kaline
outfield - Tris Speaker
outfield - Hank Aaron
dh - Joe Jackson
utility - Mickey Cochrane
utility - Joe Morgan
utility - Goerge Sisler
utility - Rickey Henderson
utility - Roberto Clemente

starting pitcher - Bob Feller
starting pitcher - Steve Carlton
starting pitcher - Whitey Ford
starting pitcher - Greg Maddux
starting pitcher - Carl Hubbell

relief pitcher - Randy Johnson
relief pitcher - Tom Seaver
relief pitcher - Pedro Martinez
relief pitcher - Miner Brown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Announcement

Your All-Time All-Star Teams, A & B

Your All-Time All-Star Teams, A & B

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