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Mantle vs. Speaker?

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  • Mantle vs. Speaker?

    Ok...Since Speaker trounced Griffey, then DiMaggio trounced Griffey, then Speaker trounced DiMaggio, the next logical comparison (at least to me) seems to be Speaker vs. Mantle. Perhaps this will make for more interesting debate.
    61
    Mickey Mantle
    52.46%
    32
    Tris Speaker
    47.54%
    29

  • #2
    I think this one's been done before. Anyhow, I chose Speaker's better/longer career over Mantle's greater peak. But I'm sure Mantle would have owned Speaker if not for his alcoholism and all those injuries he's had throughout his career.
    Last edited by rsuriyop; 02-19-2006, 04:53 PM.
    "Age is a question of mind over matter--if you don't mind, it doesn't matter."
    -Satchel Paige

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    • #3
      I go with Mantle. He may have had the best peak of all time. Too bad he didn't last quite as long as he should have.

      One thing about Mantle that I feel is often overlooked is how well he aged as a hitter. He did have some problems staying on the field as he got older, but he still was if not the best one of the best hitters in the league as he declined. As best I can figure, his decline phase OPS+ was about 150. Outstanding.

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      • #4
        I voted for Mantle.

        I actually have Mantle and Speaker 14th and 15th all-time (12th and 13th w/out pitchers), so it is definitely close.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 538280
          I go with Mantle. He may have had the best peak of all time. Too bad he didn't last quite as long as he should have.

          One thing about Mantle that I feel is often overlooked is how well he aged as a hitter. He did have some problems staying on the field as he got older, but he still was if not the best one of the best hitters in the league as he declined. As best I can figure, his decline phase OPS+ was about 150. Outstanding.
          Yeah, even in 1968, his last season, which was one of his worst seasons, he carried a 141 OPS+.

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          • #6
            I went with Speaker. I think his skill as a CF more than offsets the modest advantage Mantle has at the plate.
            Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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            • #7
              Easy answer: Micky Mantle
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                Easy answer: Micky Mantle
                I gotta question anyone who thinks it's an "easy" answer (and can't spell Mickey's name
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                  I gotta question anyone who thinks it's an "easy" answer (and can't spell Mickey's name


                  I was homed skooled...And it's still an easy answer: Mickey Mantle.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                  • #10
                    Mr. Mantle!
                    1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                      it's still an easy answer: Mickey Mantle.
                      Don't blame everything on your home schooling
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                      • #12
                        Oh, lord, this one hurts so bad. Mickey was my hero. My Mom and Dad kidded around claiming I said 'Mickey Mantle' before I said Mommy and Daddy. I worshipped at the shrine of Mickey Mantle. I actually went so far as to pattern my batting stance after Ellie Howard...because I didn't want to embarrass Mickey's name with my horrid hitting.

                        Mickey's picture is (circa 1957) is the ONLY athletic picture hanging in my house...and this from a huge sports fan. My other athletic hero's such as Ali, JohnnyU, and Bobby Hull don't have their picture hanging anywhere. Even the man I admire more than any other, Jackie Robinson, doesn't have a picture although his biography has a special place on my bookshelf.

                        Seven (7) is still my favorite and lucky number.

                        When Mickey was injured...I hurt. When Mickey got old and couldn't get around as well on the field, I ached as badly as he did.

                        When Mickey retired I actually lost a little interest in baseball for awhile.

                        When Mickey got sick and needed a liver transplant I would have gladly given him mine.

                        When Mickey died...I cried.

                        With all that said....I rate Tris Speaker a hair ahead of Mickey due to the lengevity and the fact that Mickey missed so many games in his career.

                        Mickey should be #1 in CF....damn you Willie, Ty, and Tris!!!!
                        Last edited by yanks0714; 02-20-2006, 04:57 PM.

                        Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by yanks0714

                          With all that said....I rate Tris Speaker a hair ahead of Mickey due to the lengevity and the fact that Mickey missed so many games in his career.

                          Mickey should be #1 in CF....damn you Willie, Ty, and Tris!!!!
                          Mantle doesn't have the great longevity, and he did miss games (mostly at the end of his career), but Mickey had a peak unmatched by anyone. You should look closer at your man's 1956, 1957, and 1961 seasons. Mantle those years, IMO, was the best player the game has ever seen. Tris certainly can't match it, Ty can't match it. Even my #1 man Willie can't match it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 538280
                            Mantle doesn't have the great longevity, and he did miss games (mostly at the end of his career), but Mickey had a peak unmatched by anyone. You should look closer at your man's 1956, 1957, and 1961 seasons. Mantle those years, IMO, was the best player the game has ever seen. Ty can't match it.
                            Don't count on it, and I notice you didn't mention Ruth or Bonds
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                            • #15
                              Mantle/Speaker:

                              I'll take Spoke in a heartbeat. He was, after Wagner/Mays possibly the premier offensive/defensive combo player in history.

                              Not only was his defense obviously so much superior, but his hitting was second only to Ty for his career. His running was also top notch, he lasted so much longer, and his last 1/3 of his career was accomplished while managing. He also led his team to a WS victory his first year at the helm.

                              Many of Tris' black ink, league leads were absorbed like a blotter by Cobb, in much the same way as The Babe absorbed most of Lou Gehrig's league leads.

                              Their respective Ink totals comprise:

                              Mickey Mantle: 65 Black, 272 grey
                              Tris Speaker: 34 Black, 346 grey

                              No only did Tris have to contend with Cobb, but Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Babe Ruth, Frank Baker, Nap Lajoie, George Sisler, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker, Johnny Bassler & Al Wingo. They were not competitively inferior to Mickey's elite top end.

                              At the end of Tris' tenure, he had to contend with Lou Gehrig, Jimmy Foxx, Joe Hauser, Tony Lazerri, Bob Meusel, Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Bing Miller, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Heinie Manush, Charlie Gehringer, Lew Fonseca.

                              Mantle did not have to contend with Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Snider, Rose, Billy Williams, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.

                              Mickey had Williams, Kaline, Yaz, Oliva, Berra, Maris, Killebrew, Allison, Aparicio, Fox, Minoso, Cash, Colavito, Rosen, Kuenn, Doby, Sievers, Jensen, Powell, Brooks, Frank Robinson, Kell, Conigiliaro.

                              Mickey also didn't have to take his swings against the best of his era; Spahn, Robin Roberts, Ford (team mate), Marichal, Bob Gibson, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Veale, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Chris Short, Bob Friend, Niekro, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis.

                              The Mick did have to swing against Bob Lemon, Camilo Pascual, Mike Garcia, Herb Score, Bob Feller, Herb Score, Sam McDowell, Milt Pappas, Jim Kaat, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Frank Lary, Jim Bunning [with Det til 64], Dick Radatz, Peters, Horlen, Bobby Shantz, Mickey Lolich, Denny McLain, Jim Palmer, Virgil Trucks, Don Mossi, Chuck Stobbs, Jim Perry, Jim "Mudcat" Grant, Hank Agurrie, Jim Longborg, Dick Donnovan, Mike McCormack, Moe Drubosky, Tommy John, Paul Foytack, Dean Chance, "Blue Moon" Odum, Satchiel Page, Hoyt Wilhelm.

                              And the level of pitching that Tris had to cope with was not inferior to that which Mickey had to deal with.

                              Tris' pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 3 seasons.

                              Code:
                              Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
                              Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
                              2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
                              3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
                              4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0	
                              5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
                              6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0	
                              
                              			
                              Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
                              Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
                              2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
                              3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5	
                              4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
                              5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
                              6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0
                              Bill Burgess

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