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  • Solomon Torres and Game 162 of the 1993 season

    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    I still think that if the Giants had pitched him on the last day of the 93 season, that they would have won and tied the Braves. Solomon Torres was a disater in that game. Another Dusty screwup.
    JR inspired this thread. :-)

    Solomon Torres did not blow this game for the Giants! Torres did not pitch well but the Dodgers did not blow him up. He left with one out in the fourth inning with the score 3-0. The Giants made it 3-1 in the top of the 5th. At this point in the game, as the Dodgers came to bat in the bottom of the 5th inning, the game was still very much winnable. Then the Giants' bullpen imploded. Dave Burba gave up two home runs and 4 ER's in 1.1 innings. Dave Righetti gave up another home run allowing 4 runs in 1/3 of an inning. Jim Deshaies also gave up a home run in 2/3 of an inning. The Dodgers won 12-1 with the Giants bullpen giving up four home runs and nine runs total. Solomon Torres didn't give up any home runs. To this day it baffles me that Torres gets blamed with this loss even though the Giants bullpen was basically pitching batting practice to the Dodgers.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    I hardly cared about the specifics: I was 10 years old. All I remember is the Dodgers winning and that was that.

    Looking at it now, you have to give credit to Kevin Gross too. He pitched a gem of a game. A complete-game six-hitter allowing just one run and one walk. The Giants were 0-5 with runners in scoring position.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...99310030.shtml
    46 wins to match last year's total

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    • #3
      It's funny you started this thread, as J.R. Hart's comment also got me thinking about this famous game I often hear cited as a heartbreaking Giants moment. With Scott Sanderson's passing, it's led a few Bay Area newspapers to revisit that game.

      According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the reason Dusty Baker went with Torres was because he believed he was a bright young talent with more potential to throw a gem than the unspectacular veterans Sanderson and Jim Deshaies. Apparently he had a flashback to 1980, when the Astros and Dodgers had to play a one-game tiebreaker and Tommy Lasorda started the veteran Dave Goltz over the promising youngster Fernando Valenzuela. Goltz didn't have a very good game, and the Dodgers lost. Baker apparently figured that Torres was statistically the best option, so he wasn't going to hold his lack of experience against him.

      In retrospect, the comparison is funny, as Valenzuela became a bona fide star, while Torres became a journeyman. Not that anyone could've known that at the time, of course.

      According to the NY Times article on the game, Dave Burba was crying in his postgame interview, because he knew he didn't have his best stuff that day, and the two-run homer he gave up to Cory Snyder was what took the wind out of their sails. It seems like the Giants' pitching depth was lacking, and it ultimately proved to be their downfall, as the Giant bullpen was out of gas by that point.

      Based on a statistical comparison, it's easy to argue that the Braves were simply the better team, but after going on a late-season tear to stay in the race and then falling one game short on the last day, it's easy to see why the Giants and their fans were crushed.
      Baseball Junk Drawer

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      • #4
        So Baker believed that Torres was the better option. I can see why, but he kind of had a quick hook on him. The second time that Torres gets in trouble in the fourth, he gets pulled. I guess that meant that Baker ultimately decided it would be an all hands on deck day and Burba, Righetti and Deshaies got bombed.
        46 wins to match last year's total

        Comment


        • #5
          These lazy narratives take hold and they're almost impossible to dislodge. Pesky held the ball...Lonnie Smith bought Gagne and Knoblauch's deke...Buckner blew it all by himself in '86...Baseball history is full of them.

          Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
          Based on a statistical comparison, it's easy to argue that the Braves were simply the better team, but after going on a late-season tear to stay in the race and then falling one game short on the last day, it's easy to see why the Giants and their fans were crushed.
          They were the two best teams in the game that season. The Jays were great but they got to play the third best (if that) team in the NL in that Series.
          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

          "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
            It's funny you started this thread, as J.R. Hart's comment also got me thinking about this famous game I often hear cited as a heartbreaking Giants moment. With Scott Sanderson's passing, it's led a few Bay Area newspapers to revisit that game.

            According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the reason Dusty Baker went with Torres was because he believed he was a bright young talent with more potential to throw a gem than the unspectacular veterans Sanderson and Jim Deshaies. Apparently he had a flashback to 1980, when the Astros and Dodgers had to play a one-game tiebreaker and Tommy Lasorda started the veteran Dave Goltz over the promising youngster Fernando Valenzuela. Goltz didn't have a very good game, and the Dodgers lost. Baker apparently figured that Torres was statistically the best option, so he wasn't going to hold his lack of experience against him.

            In retrospect, the comparison is funny, as Valenzuela became a bona fide star, while Torres became a journeyman. Not that anyone could've known that at the time, of course.

            According to the NY Times article on the game, Dave Burba was crying in his postgame interview, because he knew he didn't have his best stuff that day, and the two-run homer he gave up to Cory Snyder was what took the wind out of their sails. It seems like the Giants' pitching depth was lacking, and it ultimately proved to be their downfall, as the Giant bullpen was out of gas by that point.

            Based on a statistical comparison, it's easy to argue that the Braves were simply the better team, but after going on a late-season tear to stay in the race and then falling one game short on the last day, it's easy to see why the Giants and their fans were crushed.
            I've been a Giants' fan since about 1976-77 and the 1993 Giants are still my favorite Giants team of all time. Yes, the Braves had way more elite talent. The Giants were coming off two losing seasons in 1991-92. The Braves were the two-time defending National League champions and loaded with great young talent. Greg Maddux was in his first season with the Braves. The Giants were sold in late 1992 to a group that was going to move the team to Tampa. Then MLB pulled some shady moves (led by the Dodgers ironically) to block the sale and forced then Giants owner Bob Lurie to sell the team to a local group for far less than the Tampa group had offered. Then the biggest shocker was when the Giants signed Barry Bonds. Bonds had been courted by both the Yankees and Braves. I believe the Braves were viewed as the front runners since they have been after Bonds for several years. They almost traded for him a few years previously. Imagine my shock when I came home and turned on ESPN. They said Bonds signed with a west coast team. My initial reaction was "Damn you Dodgers!!!! You signed Barry Bonds?!!" Then when I saw Bonds wearing a Giants hat I almost passed out.

            The 1993 Giants were simply a good team that had everything come together and they had a great season. Bonds got off to a sizzling start. On June 1st Bonds was hitting .394/.509/.771. It was nuts to see Bonds pound the ball like this. He brought excitement to Candlestick Park. And the entire team fed off of it. The Giants took 5 of 7 games from the Braves in two series in April and Mays. Through 100 games the Giants were 67-33 W-L which is 109 win pace. To put that into perspective the 1976 Cincinnati Reds were 70-30 W-L through 100 games.

            Then the Braves traded for Fred McGriff which changed everything. In mid August the Giants were scheduled to play the Braves six games over a ten day period. The Giants had a 7.5 game lead when they opened up a three game series with the Braves at home. I'm thinking if the Giants can just split or even win just two of the six games they will still have a good lead on the Braves. So the Giants promptly get swept in the first series! Man, I was so pissed!! The last game was the worst. At that time I was taking summer classes in college. I lived right off the campus. I had a class that ended at 1 pm. The game started at 1:05. I literally walked in the door turned on the radio and the Braves were already up 3-0! :-( I knew the game was already over with Greg Maddux pitching. The Braves won 9-1. A week later the Giants lost 2 of 3 in Atlanta top cut the lead . But the Giants still had a 3.5 game lead going into September. And here is where the season was lost for the Giants. The Giants came home to play a nine game homestand to play the Pirates, Cardinals, and Cubs. Their record was still an amazing 89-48 W-L (.649). They beat the Pirates in the first game. Then the Giants promptly lost the final eight games of the homestand! When they finally broke the losing streak they were 4 games BEHIND the Braves. The season seemed lost. Then the Giants regroup and charged back winning 14 of their final 17 games. That last week of the season was INTENSE. I've never been so wrapped up into baseball like that week. I kept watching the Braves on TV rooting for them to lose . Haha. I still remember the Astros Pete Harnich throwing a near complete game against the Braves beating Maddux to allow the Giants to tie the Braves. This was a Tuesday. The Giants and Braves would remain tied for the next four days. The next day in the Giants final home game of the season the Rockies beat the Giants. This was important. This was Will Clark's last home game as a Giant. Fortunately, the Astros beat the Braves again.

            The Giants last four games were in LA. I knew the Giants had to sweep the Dodgers to have any shot since the Braves were playing the expansion Rockies. The Giants hadn't swept a four game series from the Dodgers on the road since 1923! As expected the Braves swept the Rockies. The Braves were 13-0 against the Rockies in 1993. To this day I despise the Rockies for this! The Giants won the first three games of the Dodger series. But in game 162 the Giants simply had nothing left and lost to the Dodgers 12-1. Thus ended the the most exciting Giants season in my lifetime.
            Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 04-16-2019, 11:54 AM.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
              They were the two best teams in the game that season. The Jays were great but they got to play the third best (if that) team in the NL in that Series.
              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              I've been a Giants' fan since about 1976-77 and the 1993 Giants are still my favorite Giants team of all time. Yes, the Braves had way more elite talent. The Giants were coming off two losing seasons in 1991-92. The Braves were the two-time defending National League champions and loaded with great young talent. Greg Maddux was in his first season with the Braves. The Giants were sold in late 1992 to a group that was going to move the team to Tampa. Then MLB pulled some shady moves (led by the Dodgers ironically) to block the sale and forced then Giants owner Bob Lurie to sell the team to a local group for far less than the Tampa group had offered. Then the biggest shocker was when the Giants signed Barry Bonds. Bonds had been courted by both the Yankees and Braves. I believe the Braves were viewed as the front runners since they have been after Bonds for several years. They almost traded for him a few years previously. Imagine my shock when I came home and turned on ESPN. They said Bonds signed with a west coast team. My initial reaction was "Damn you Dodgers!!!! You signed Barry Bonds?!!" Then when I saw Bonds wearing a Giants hat I almost passed out.

              The 1993 Giants were simply a good team that had everything come together and they had a great season. Bonds got off to a sizzling start. On June 1st Bonds was hitting .394/.509/.771. It was nuts to see Bonds pound the ball like this. He brought excitement to Candlestick Park. And the entire team fed off of it. The Giants took 5 of 7 games from the Braves in two series in April and Mays. Through 100 games the Giants were 67-33 W-L which is 109 win pace. To put that into perspective the 1976 Cincinnati Reds were 70-30 W-L through 100 games.

              Then the Braves traded for Fred McGriff which changed everything. In mid August the Giants were scheduled to play the Braves six games over a ten day period. The Giants had a 7.5 game lead when they opened up a three game series with the Braves at home. I'm thinking if the Giants can just split or even win just two of the six games they will still have a good lead on the Braves. So the Giants promptly get swept in the first series! Man, I was so pissed!! The last game was the worst. At that time I was taking summer classes in college. I lived right off the campus. I had a class that ended at 1 pm. The game started at 1:05. I literally walked in the door turned on the radio and the Braves were already up 3-0! :-( I knew the game was already over with Greg Maddux pitching. The Braves won 9-1. A week later the Giants lost 2 of 3 in Atlanta top cut the lead . But the Giants still had a 3.5 game lead going into September. And here is where the season was lost for the Giants. The Giants came home to play a nine game homestand to play the Pirates, Cardinals, and Cubs. Their record was still an amazing 89-48 W-L (.649). They beat the Pirates in the first game. Then the Giants promptly lost the final eight games of the homestand! When they finally broke the losing streak they were 4 games BEHIND the Braves. The season seemed lost. Then the Giants regroup and charged back winning 14 of their final 17 games. That last week of the season was INTENSE. I've never been so wrapped up into baseball like that week. I kept watching the Braves on TV rooting for them to lose . Haha. I still remember the Astros Pete Harnich throwing a near complete game against the Braves beating Maddux to allow the Giants to tie the Braves. This was a Tuesday. The Giants and Braves would remain tied for the next four days. The next day in the Giants final home game of the season the Rockies beat the Giants. This was important. This was Will Clark's last home game as a Giant. Fortunately, the Astros beat the Braves again.

              The Giants last four games were in LA. I knew the Giants had to sweep the Dodgers to have any shot since the Braves were playing the expansion Rockies. The Giants hadn't swept a four game series from the Dodgers on the road since 1923! As expected the Braves swept the Rockies. The Braves were 13-0 against the Rockies in 1993. To this day I despise the Rockies for this! The Giants won the first three games of the Dodger series. But in game 162 the Giants simply had nothing left and lost to the Dodgers 12-1. Thus ended the the most exciting Giants season in my lifetime.
              Great stories! That 1993 NL West race must've been thrilling. It was just before my time, as I didn't start following baseball until about 1994/95. Thanks to the Wild Card, we may never see its like again.

              I was recently looking at some games from the 1993 NLCS on YouTube, and I saw a commenter who said that the only reason the Phillies were able to defeat the Braves is because the Braves were spent after fighting off the Giants all year. Even though the Giants fell one game short, they got their revenge.

              It's a shame that Giant team was a one-year wonder. How often do you see a 100-win team bookended by losing seasons? I suppose if it hadn't been for the strike, the 1994 Giants might've gotten their record above .500, since they still had most of the same talent as the year before, but it looks like the entire team experienced some regression. Outside of Barry Bonds and Matt Williams, they had no serious power threats, and their pitching staff, while solid, didn't have a true ace. Still, they were only 3.5 games behind the Dodgers when the strike hit, so they might've been able to win a weak division. The thing I hate most about the 1994 strike is the unknowns for so many different teams.
              Baseball Junk Drawer

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ian2813 View Post



                Great stories! That 1993 NL West race must've been thrilling. It was just before my time, as I didn't start following baseball until about 1994/95. Thanks to the Wild Card, we may never see its like again.

                I was recently looking at some games from the 1993 NLCS on YouTube, and I saw a commenter who said that the only reason the Phillies were able to defeat the Braves is because the Braves were spent after fighting off the Giants all year. Even though the Giants fell one game short, they got their revenge.

                It's a shame that Giant team was a one-year wonder. How often do you see a 100-win team bookended by losing seasons? I suppose if it hadn't been for the strike, the 1994 Giants might've gotten their record above .500, since they still had most of the same talent as the year before, but it looks like the entire team experienced some regression. Outside of Barry Bonds and Matt Williams, they had no serious power threats, and their pitching staff, while solid, didn't have a true ace. Still, they were only 3.5 games behind the Dodgers when the strike hit, so they might've been able to win a weak division. The thing I hate most about the 1994 strike is the unknowns for so many different teams.
                The strike was heart wrenching for me as a young baseball fan, agreed on the sadness of the unknowns, could Montreal have made a run for the series and could the franchise have stayed because of it, etc.
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ian2813 View Post

                  Great stories! That 1993 NL West race must've been thrilling. It was just before my time, as I didn't start following baseball until about 1994/95. Thanks to the Wild Card, we may never see its like again.

                  I was recently looking at some games from the 1993 NLCS on YouTube, and I saw a commenter who said that the only reason the Phillies were able to defeat the Braves is because the Braves were spent after fighting off the Giants all year. Even though the Giants fell one game short, they got their revenge.

                  It's a shame that Giant team was a one-year wonder. How often do you see a 100-win team bookended by losing seasons? I suppose if it hadn't been for the strike, the 1994 Giants might've gotten their record above .500, since they still had most of the same talent as the year before, but it looks like the entire team experienced some regression. Outside of Barry Bonds and Matt Williams, they had no serious power threats, and their pitching staff, while solid, didn't have a true ace. Still, they were only 3.5 games behind the Dodgers when the strike hit, so they might've been able to win a weak division. The thing I hate most about the 1994 strike is the unknowns for so many different teams.
                  Billy Swift won 21 games and John Burkett won 22 games in 1993. That wasn't going to happen again in 1994. In fact that was the last time the Giants have had a 20 game winner. Bonds was Bonds in 1994 and Matt Williams was on pace to challenge Roger Maris when the strike hit. But the rest of the offense was terrible.

                  It took a while for the Giants to rebuild. They had losing records from 1994-96. They lost 94 games in 1996 the second most loses in San Francisco history at that point. But they traded Matt Williams after the 1996 season and got Jeff Kent in return. The Giants won the NL West in 1997, lost a one game playoff to the Cubs for the Wild Card in 1998, won the NL West in 2000 (best record in baseball), won the NL pennant in 2002, and won the NL West and winning 100 games in 2003. From 2000-04 the Giants won at least 90 games each season (97, 90, 95, 100, 91). From 1997-2004 the Giants finished first or second every season.
                  Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 04-16-2019, 04:53 PM.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                    I was recently looking at some games from the 1993 NLCS on YouTube, and I saw a commenter who said that the only reason the Phillies were able to defeat the Braves is because the Braves were spent after fighting off the Giants all year.
                    That's exactly what happened (along with the fact that that Phillies team was stuffed full of enough dianabol to float the Titanic.)
                    3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                    "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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                    • #11
                      The Giants had won 5 of the 6 games that Sanderson had started between Aug 21 and Sept 24, with Sanderson getting the win in 4 of them. Then mysteriously, he only pitched 3 more innings the rest of the year. For a team that struggled all year with pitching depth, this seemed like a bad move. Sanderson was producing.
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                      • #12
                        I remember David Justice hitting #40 vs. the Rockies. Thought that was pretty cool.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                          I remember David Justice hitting #40 vs. the Rockies. Thought that was pretty cool.
                          I vaguely remember that myself. :-)
                          46 wins to match last year's total

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                            I remember David Justice hitting #40 vs. the Rockies. Thought that was pretty cool.
                            He really pounded both them and the Marlins that year.
                            3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                            "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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                            • #15
                              As a Card's and Braves fan, I definitely remember when the FCS pressbox caught on fire. If I am not mistaken, it was a day or two after the McGriff trade and the braves went on a huge terror after.
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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