Greatest offensive season ever

[torez77]

Since we're into single seasons, I thought I'd make a thread discussing the greatest offensive seasons ever and which one's the greatest. I didn't make a poll cuz there's too many to list.

I think I have my pick but I wanna hear other opinions first.

[538280]

Either 2001 Barry Bonds or 2002 Barry Bonds.

[Dontworry]

Batting winshares says Bonds finished with 52.2 batting win shares in 2001. The highest single season total in the history of baseball.

[torez77]

Never minding that '01 and '02 may have been juiced, I'm afraid you're probably right. I personally prefer Ruth's '20 and '21 seasons. Bonds has too many intentional BB's for my taste, which boosts his numbers. We can't see Ruth's IBB's, and I don't doubt he had some, but I'd wager it wasn't as many as Bonds. Of course, Bonds should also be given credit for that because of the fear he strikes in pitchers.

[Dontworry]

Never minding that '01 and '02 may have been juiced, I'm afraid you're probably right. I personally prefer Ruth's '20 and '21 seasons. Bonds has too many intentional BB's for my taste, which boosts his numbers. We can't see Ruth's IBB's, and I don't doubt he had some, but I'd wager it wasn't as many as Bonds. Of course, Bonds should also be given credit for that because of the fear he strikes in pitchers.

" Bonds has too many intentional BB's for my taste "

There's no denying that fact. Barry's walks these days are probably less valuable (on average) than they were in the 90s (slower, more deliberately intentional BBs), but the bottom line is: walks have a lot of value.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

We can't see Ruth's IBB's, and I don't doubt he had some, but I'd wager it wasn't as many as Bonds.

I think it's safe to say that Babe was never walked intentionally the way Bonds was in 2004. That chickenbleep stuff was off the charts.

I've looked into this quite a bit, as has Shoeless3, and have come to the conclusion that at least half of Babe's walks were intentional (stand up form), or unintentionally intentional. With the larger strike zone back then, pitchers really had to miss for it to be a ball, and sometimes they'd throw high and away, hoping to hit a spot (and that he wouldn't swing). There were the intentional (stand up) ones, including one with the bases loaded in '23 I believe it was, and there are stretches of games where he only took the bat off his shoulder once or twice. We'll never know the exact number. Going by how feared he was, considering he was a one man wrecking crew, we can safely estimate.

[torez77]

I've looked into this quite a bit, as has Shoeless3, and have come to the conclusion that at least half of Babe's walks were intentional (stand up form), or unintentionally intentional. With the larger strike zone back then, pitchers really had to miss for it to be a ball, and sometimes they'd throw high and away, hoping to hit a spot (and that he wouldn't swing). There were the intentional (stand up) ones, including one with the bases loaded in '23 I believe it was, and there are stretches of games where he only took the bat off his shoulder once or twice. We'll never know the exact number. Going by how feared he was, considering he was a one man wrecking crew, we can safely estimate.

In other words, if Ruth played today, he'd be getting even more IBB's than Bonds.

[GiambiJuice]

Babe Ruth, 1921.

R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG TB
177 204 44 16 59 171 17 .378 .512 .846 457

177 runs - Still an alltime record
457 total bases - still an alltime record
119 Extra-base hits - Still an alltime record

....after 85 years!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

In other words, if Ruth played today, he'd be getting even more IBB's than Bonds.

No, because he wouldn't be outhomering entire teams if he played today. The fear he instilled would not translate to this overblown offensive era. Sure, he'd be feared, and would be carefully pitched to, but nothing close to how it was back then. Bonds' situation has been rare in that he's feared, but also has nobody else in the lineup for them to worry about. Couple that with Bonds is being this feared at such a late age, and he's basically planted on first after a walk.

[torez77]

Babe Ruth, 1921.

R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG TB
177 204 44 16 59 171 17 .378 .512 .846 457

177 runs - Still an alltime record
457 total bases - still an alltime record
119 Extra-base hits - Still an alltime record

....after 85 years!

Good points, and those records might be the tiebreaker that makes me choose Ruth's '21 season over his '20 season and any of Bonds' seasons.

However, Bonds' OPS+ in '01 and '02 are higher than any of Ruth's seasons. His Equivalent Average in '01, '02 and '04 are higher than any of Ruth's. Surprisingly, '04 is Bonds' highest EqA year at .454! Crazy!

The advanced stats and win shares says Bonds' seasons are better. But to me, Ruth's are more special, because of 1) the above-listed records 2)Bonds' stats are more reliant on walks 3)The probability, not fact, that Bonds was on the juice

So I choose, as the greatest offensive season ever, either Ruth's '21 or '20 season. The advanced stats such as OPS+ and EqA say '20 was better. I say, take your pick.

[torez77]

Let's choose the greatest offensive season ever by a player other than Babe or Barry.

[Ubiquitous]

If Rickey had managed to play more games in 1990 I would say that his 1990 year was one of the greatest ever.

He was a lead-off hitter and yet he finished 2nd in batting average, second in SLG!!!, first in OPS, 6th in homers!, 6th in total bases, and 4th in XBH. Doing all that despite only playing in 136 games and in the Coliseum. Its scary to think what he might have done playing the full season and in a better stadium.
Rickey had this line in away games: .342/.451/.604. He plays in a better park and he at the very least finishes second in homers, and might even be challenging Cecil Fielder and his 51 homers. All this and he stole 65 bases while only getting caught 10 times. That year Rickey Henderson was the perfect player. Even if we just keep him in Oakland but get him to play 20 more games or so its likely that he moves in the top 5 of several counting categories that he fell just short of.

[Bill Burgess]

Some of the Greatest Hitting Seasons Ever: Listed
according to PCA.

----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
Ruth, 1920-------2.08----1.47-----1.27---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
Ruth,1921--------2.07----1.43-----1.29---239---16--24.79---53---9.8
Mantle,1956------1.78----1.36-----1.35---210---18--22.96---49---8.8
Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
Bonds, 2004------1.83----1.76-----1.32---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
Bonds, 2001------2.04 ---1.57-----1.27---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
Cobb,1911--------1.73----1.38-----1.53---196---22--20.74---47---6.4
Bonds, 2002------1.96----1.77-----1.45---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
Hornsby,1922-----1.78----1.31-----1.37---207---23--20.37---42---9.2
Musial,1948------1.83----1.35-----1.44---200---20--20.30---46---7.3
Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
Lajoie, 1901-----1.53----1.38-----1.73---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
Foxx,1932--------1.85----1.35-----1.31---205---14--18.54---40---7.2
Wagner,1908------1.76----1.38-----1.48---205---19--18.42---59--10.2
Speaker, 1912----1.44----1.39-----1.54---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
Medwick, 1937----1.37----1.24-----1.42---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
Cash, 1961-------1.41----1.46-----1.37---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
T.Williams,1949--1.71----1.38-----1.30---192---19--17.24---40---6.6
Gehrig,1927------1.91----1.34-----1.30---221---07--17.17---44---9.1
J.Jackson, 1911--1.49----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
Yaz,1967---------1.77----1.38-----1.38---195---21--16.81---42---6.5
F.Robinson, 1966-1.28----1.31-----1.68---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
H.Duffy, 1894----1.42----1.26-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
Delahanty, 1899--1.44----1.33-----1.59---189---16--16.36---41---5.4
Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
Wagner, 1900-----1.36----1.28-----1.56---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
Wilson,1930------1.61----1.26-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
Carew, 1977------1.45----1.35-----1.40---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
Vaughan, 1935----1.38----1.48-----1.31---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
Kiner, 1951------1.18----1.31-----1.60---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
Sisler,1920------1.63----1.29-----1.43---181---08--15.40---33---7.6
Al Rosen, 1953---1.28----1.23-----1.60---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
Burkett, 1901----1.42----1.35-----1.49---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
Aaron, 1959------1.36----1.24-----1.59---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
Mize, 1937-------1.33----1.24-----1.55---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
Terry, 1930------1.32----1.25-----1.38---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
Zimmerman, 1912--1.36----1.19-----1.54---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
Ott, 1929--------1.11----1.22-----1.49---165---02--13.15---31---5.8
Simmons,1930-----1.68----1.20-----1.32---176---07--12.94---36---4.5
Averill, 1936----1.30----1.16-----1.48---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
DiMaggio,1937----1.62----1.16-----1.32---168---07--12.78---39---5.9
Clemente, 1967---1.13----1.24-----1.52---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
Brett, 1980------1.44----1.38-----1.66---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
Greenberg, 1937--1.19----1.22-----1.60---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
Snider, 1954-----1.28----1.20-----1.58---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
J.Robinson, 1949-1.30----1.23-----1.35---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
Heilmann, 1921---1.34----1.24-----1.51---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
Mays, 1954-------1.30----1.22-----1.63---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
Rose, 1969-------1.39----1.27-----1.38---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
B.Williams, 1970-1.24----1.10-----1.49---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
O'Doul, 1929-----1.35----1.30-----1.46---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
T.Davis, 1962----1.31----1.13-----1.34---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
Crawford, 1911---1.38----1.23-----1.46---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
Keeler, 1897-----1.42----1.28-----1.49---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
Manush, 1928-----1.34----1.15-----1.44---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
Lindstrom, 1930--1.25----1.07-----1.28---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
Z.Wheat, 1924----1.32----1.25-----1.40---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
Z.Wheat, 1925----1.22----1.13-----1.30---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
P.Waner, 1927----1.27----1.22-----1.33---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
Gehringer, 1936--1.22----1.15-----1.31---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
Reiser, 1941-----1.32----1.18-----1.54---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
Colavito, 1961---1.13----1.17-----1.46---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
J.Rice, 1978-----1.20----1.08-----1.55---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
Cuyler, 1930-----1.13----1.15-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
Trosky, 1936-----1.14----1.01-----1.46---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
Oliva, 1964------1.30----1.10-----1.45---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
K.Williams, 1922-1.16----1.13-----1.57---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
J.Tobin, 1921----1.20----1.05-----1.19---119---02---8.24---25---0.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Away Games Only, indexed to League Averages.

--------------------Rel.SLG-------Rel.OBP---------Rel.BA.
Musial,1948----------2.03----------1.43------------1.59
Gehrig,1927----------2.01----------1.39------------1.38
Ruth,1921------------1.89----------1.34------------1.21
Hornsby,1922---------1.73----------1.31------------1.36
Wagner,1908----------1.71---------no-data----------1.38
DiMaggio,1937------- 1.71----------1.11------------1.23
Mantle,1956----------1.68----------1.33------------1.28
Foxx,1932------------1.68----------1.22------------1.23
Cobb,1911----------- 1.67----------1.36------------1.54
Yaz,1967-------------1.61----------1.34------------1.36
T.Williams,1949------1.56----------1.32------------1.27
Klein,1930-----------1.45----------1.18------------1.19
Sisler,1920----------1.29----------1.13------------1.20

Wilson,1930---------no-data-------no-data----------no-data
Simmons,1930--------no-data-------no-data----------no-data
B. Herman,1930------no-data-------no-data----------no-data
Bonds, 2001---------no data-------no data----------no data
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

name, yr.-----------home HRs-----away HRs------home Slg-----away slg.
Ruth, 1920------------29-------------25----------.985----------.736
Ruth, 1923------------19-------------22----------.805----------.728
Gehrig, 1927----------24-------------23----------.722----------.805
Hornsby, 1922---------24-------------18----------.741----------.703
Sisler, 1920----------15--------------4----------.760----------.503
DiMaggio, 1937--------19-------------27----------.631----------.711
Klein, 1930-----------26-------------14----------.794----------.578
Foxx, 1932------------31-------------27----------.820----------.682
Mantle, 1956----------27-------------25----------.746----------.664
Williams, 1949--------23-------------20----------.710----------.595
Ott, 1929-------------20-------------22----------.575----------.692
Musial, 1948----------16-------------23----------.618----------.780

The home/away splits were located at Total Baseball, Vol. 1, ed. by John
Thorn & Pete Palmer with David Reuther, 1989, pp. 2200-2213.

[GiambiJuice]

Let's choose the greatest offensive season ever by a player other than Babe or Barry.

IMHO.....

1. Musial '48
2. Williams '41
3. Williams '49
4. Gehrig '27
5. Mantle '56
6. Cobb '11
7. Dimaggio '37
8. Gehrig '36
9. Foxx '32
10. Hornsby '22
11. Wagner '08
12. Bagwell '94
13. Simmons '30
14. Thomas '94
15. Hornsby '24
16. Sosa '01
17. Hornsby '25
18. Morgan '75
19. Henderson '90
20. Mays '54
21. Mantle '57
22. Schmidt '80
23. Aaron '59
24. H. Wilson '30
25. Arod '96
26. Foxx '38
27. McGwire '98
28. Piazza '97
29. Yaz '67
30. Williams '57
31. Gehrig '34
32. Cobb '15
33. Greenberg '37
34. Dimaggio '41
35. Dimaggio '39
36. L. Walker '97
37. C. Klein '30
38. J. Medwick '37
39. Pujols '03
40. Mize '47
41. Brett '80
42. Greenberg '38
43. Ramirez '00
44. Ott '29
45. Mattingly '86
46.Williams '42
47. Trotsky '36
48. Rosen '53
49. Mays '55
50. Alomar '99

I'll probably get blasted for this list. If anybody's wondering why I don't have more seasons from Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Etc. I'll be honest with you; I'm a sucker for Home runs : )

[Ubiquitous]

What was so great about Alomar's 1999 season that it would make the top 50 non-B's offensive list?

If he is on the list for that year then why isn't Derek Jeter of the same year on the list? Jeter had a better year that year then Alomar, so did Alomar's teammate Manny Ramirez.