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Each franshise top 10 >>>.Tampa Bay Rays

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  • #31
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

    I didn't "criticize" anybody. I just stated that if DeGrom had had a full season that he may have been their best player.

    I also watched the games and it was clear to me that Lagares was the best player.

    But, why do you see it as a bad thing to read WAR numbers on a spread sheet?

    What do you do when you want to determine who was the best player on a team that was around before you were born?

    Like, for instance, the 1916 Browns?
    We have stats besides WAR to look at. WAR can be misleading. In 2015 Kiermeier had 7.5 WAR, which makes it appear he had a great year, even an MVP quality one. Many great players and even HOFers never had 7.5 WAR in any season. Miguel Cabrera in his triple crown season did not have 7.5 WAR, nor did he have 7.5 the following year when he had a 190 OPS+. The things is, all Kiermeier can really do at an above average level is shag down fly balls...that does not a MVP level season make. Nobody in their right mind would say a guy who can do nothing but run down fly balls had a better season than a guy who won the triple crown. But WAR says so.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-12-2019, 12:19 AM.

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    • #32
      1. Evan Longoria
      2. Ben Zobrist
      3. David Price
      4. Carlos Pena
      5. Kevin Kiermaier
      6. Carl Crawford
      7. Blake Snell
      8. James Shields
      9. Aubrey Huff
      10. Scott Kazmir

      HM. Fred McGriff

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by willshad View Post

        We have stats besides WAR to look at. WAR can be misleading. In 2015 Kiermeier had 7.5 WAR, which makes it appear he had a great year, even an MVP quality one. Many great players and even HOFers never had 7.5 WAR in any season. Miguel Cabrera in his triple crown season did not have 7.5 WAR, nor did he have 7.5 the following year when he had a 190 OPS+. The things is, all Kiermeier can really do at an above average level is shag down fly balls...that does not a MVP level season make. Nobody in their right mind would say a guy who can do nothing but run down fly balls had a better season than a guy who won the triple crown. But WAR says so.
        BBRef rated Kiermaier's defense, and thus overall WAR, considerably higher than that of other sites. But dismissing that defense as shagging fly balls at an above average rate is like dismissing Cabrera by saying he hit the ball at an above average rate. According to BBRef, Kiermaier produced the greatest defense in history. You can disagree with that conclusion, but the point is. that it is possible to perform so well defensively that you overcome a huge gap in hitting. The numbers say you can, even if we can argue whether K. actually did. Kiermaier combined the best defense ever with average hitting, and above average base running and avoiding of double plays. Cabrera combined great--but not all time best--hitting with below average defense and double play avoidance.

        Defense generally counts for less than offense. Kiermaier's all-time record of 42 runs doesn't come close to what elite hitters put up batting every season, let alone the highest batting run totals ever. But you combine that with a few runs in other areas, and match that vs. a bating run total that is well short of all-time best, and has negative runs in other departments, and you can begin to see how it's possible that Kiermaier could be rated so highly.

        I myself find FG's lower defensive rating and WAR much more credible, but outliers like BBRef for Kiermaier in 2015 remind us what is at the very least theoretically possible. It's not rocket science. Suppose about once a week he makes a catch on a drive that would get by other OFers. That is effectively like adding about 25 extra base hits to his total value. This stuff adds up.

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        • #34
          One of the toughies...

          1. Evan Longoria
          2. Carl Crawford

          --at this point I wanted to quit---

          3. David Price (at least he had those two big years).
          4. James Shields (and I'm a Sox fan and still am voting for him!)
          5. Ben Zobrist
          6. Aubrey Huff
          7. Melvin Upton


          I'm still sorting out the bottom end of this list figuring out who is most worthy of not getting a negative vote.

          Edit:

          8. Fred McGriff
          9. Carlos Pena
          10. Scott Kazmir
          Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 06-15-2019, 07:46 AM.
          Morrill to Nash to Tenney to Gowdy to Cooney to Spahn to Niekro to Glavine to Moylan

          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

          Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

          Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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          • #35
            Longoria
            Zobrist
            Price
            Kazmir
            Crawford
            BJ Upton
            Pena
            McGriff
            Shields
            Kiermaier

            the bottom 5 could be randos from the '98 Opening Day roster for all I care about this team

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            • #36
              Back from camping, so I guess that I better rate this sorry ass franchise



              Longoria
              Price
              Crawford
              Kazmir
              Pena
              Shields
              Zobrist
              Huff
              Canseco
              McGriff
              This week's Giant

              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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              • #37
                1- Evan Longoria
                2- David Price
                3- Carl Crawford
                4- Ben Zobrist
                5- James Shields
                6- Carlos Pena
                7- Melvin Upton
                8- Scott Kazmir
                9- Fred McGriff
                10- Kevin Kiermaier
                Nos Amours! ... 1969-2004

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                  Back from camping, so I guess that I better rate this sorry ass franchise
                  Hey, at least they have won a pennant. That's more than the Mariners and the Expos-Nationals have done.
                  Last edited by SavoyBG; 06-16-2019, 04:43 PM.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                    Hey, at least they have won a pennant. That's more than the Mariners and the Expos-Nationals have done.
                    Since 2008 the Rays have been good (.533 W%). Since 2008 the Rays have had six 90+ win seasons, four playoff appearances, and this year they are on pace for 98 wins, which would be a franchise record. The Rays could have had even more success if they had drafted Buster Posey in 2008.
                    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 06-17-2019, 07:53 AM.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      final results

                      1- Evan Longoria 140
                      2-Carl Crawford 111
                      3- Ben Zobrist 108
                      4- David Price 107
                      5- James Shields 59
                      6- Carlos Pena 55
                      7- Scott Kazmir 47
                      8- Kevin Kiermaier 36
                      9-Melvin Upton 34
                      10-Aubrey Huff 23


                      Fred McGriff 18
                      Blake Snell 10
                      Julio Lugo 8
                      Wade Boggs 2
                      Jose Canseco 2
                      Desmond Jennings 1
                      Fernando Rodney 1
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Looks like Longoria was unanimous, rightfully so. How many teams so far have had a unanimous #1?
                        My top 10 players:

                        1. Babe Ruth
                        2. Barry Bonds
                        3. Ty Cobb
                        4. Ted Williams
                        5. Willie Mays
                        6. Alex Rodriguez
                        7. Hank Aaron
                        8. Honus Wagner
                        9. Lou Gehrig
                        10. Mickey Mantle

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                          Looks like Longoria was unanimous, rightfully so. How many teams so far have had a unanimous #1?
                          13 out of 27
                          1- Evan Longoria 140
                          1) Tony Gwynn 220
                          1) Babe Ruth 240
                          1) Tom Seaver 200
                          1) Walter Johnson 180
                          1- Robin Yount 180
                          1-George Brett 170
                          1-Jeff Bagwell160
                          1-Ty Cobb170
                          1- Ted Williams 100
                          1- Cal Ripken 80
                          1- Hank Aaron
                          1- Randy Johnson
                          This week's Giant

                          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            there were more voters in the Rays and Dads polls than the Red Sox, O's, and Braves polls so much for "sorry ass franchises", eh?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by pedrosrotatorcuff View Post
                              there were more voters in the Rays and Dads polls than the Red Sox, O's, and Braves polls so much for "sorry ass franchises", eh?
                              Check the list on post 2 of any thread in this project

                              Participation was much lighter at the start of this project. Tampa was the lowest voter turnout since the Marlins 13 teams ago. Also Tampa's 14 votes ended a streak of teams with 20+ votes at six.
                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                As to participation, I'm to blame on the early teams, JR pm'd me and I picked up with maybe the White Sox...been a fun and rewarding project thanks to the electorate
                                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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