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Greatest Living Team: 150 Years of Professional Baseball

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  • #16
    I had Morgan on my list for 2B. But I've heard a lot of criticism about Morgan over the years. The argument is that he really had just 6 or 7 excellent seasons. Beyond those 6 or 7 years, he wasn't particularly impressive (not bad either, just not THAT good). And he played for 22 seasons. So 6 or 7 excellent years out of 22 seasons ... do the math.

    He had 100 career WAR. About 40 WAR accumulated from 1966 - 1971, 1978 - 1984 ... 13 seasons where he wasn't that good.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by redban View Post
      I had Morgan on my list for 2B. But I've heard a lot of criticism about Morgan over the years. The argument is that he really had just 6 or 7 excellent seasons. Beyond those 6 or 7 years, he wasn't particularly impressive (not bad either, just not THAT good). And he played for 22 seasons. So 6 or 7 excellent years out of 22 seasons ... do the math.

      He had 100 career WAR. About 40 WAR accumulated from 1966 - 1971, 1978 - 1984 ... 13 seasons where he wasn't that good.
      I'm not a big WAR user (it's low on my list), but to be fair to that system if anyone (Morgan or not) gets 40 in 13 seasons (about 3 a year), that's pretty good relative to WAR. Those are your secondary years - when you compare it to anyone else not in the top 20 all time, almost no one scores a ton outside their peak 7 or so years. In short, agree with the system or not, it is consistent in its distribution patterns and 40 is pretty good (if you like using WAR).

      Outside WAR discussions itself, I agree with you about Morgan being overrated. I'd suggest keep digging and looking at different numbers...for example he was a much better hitter in Houston than on the road, but gets bonuses because park factors are too generic and overly boost him when he shouldn't get a boost.
      Sox fans are the only ones who seem to remember the 1959 World Series happened.

      Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

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      Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

        He's better than Joe Morgan now?

        Let me guess. Batting Average?


        I've never rated Morgan very high. I don't think that he had that many great years.

        Alomar is a 12 time all star with 9 gold gloves. I didn't have any idea what his BA was until I looked it up.

        I don't worship at the altar of Joe Morgan, never have.
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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        • #19
          For what it's worth, here are my greatest living players:

          C: Mike Piazza
          1B: Albert Pujols
          2B: Joe Morgan (only rated 53rd amongst all position players, but all the better ones are dead unless we try to shove Pete Rose in at second)
          SS: Cal Ripken Jr.
          3B: Mike Schmidt
          LF: Rickey Henderson
          CF: Willie Mays
          RF: Henry Aaron

          RHP: Greg Maddux
          LHP: Randy Johnson
          Sox fans are the only ones who seem to remember the 1959 World Series happened.

          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

          Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

          Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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          • #20
            C Johnny Bench
            1B Albert Pujols
            2B Joe Morgan
            SS Alex Rodriguez
            3B Mike Schmidt
            LF Barry Bonds
            CF Willie Mays
            RF Hank Aaron
            DH Edgar Martinez
            RHP Greg Maddux
            LHP Randy Johnson
            RP Mariano Rivera

            Comment


            • #21


              Greatest Team Ever:

              C- Johnny Bench
              1B- Lou Gehrig
              2B- Rogers Horsnby
              3B- Mike Schmidt
              SS- Honus Wagner
              LF- Ted Williams
              CF- Willie Mays
              RF- Babe Ruth
              DH- Edgar Martinez
              RHP- Walter Johnson
              LHP- Lefty Grove
              RP- Mariano Rivera

              Greatest Player Ever: Babe Ruth

              Greatest Living Team:

              C- Johnny Bench
              1B- Albert Pujols
              2B- Joe Morgan
              3B- Mike Schmidt
              SS- Alex Rodriguez
              LF- Barry Bonds
              CF- Willie Mays
              RF- Hank Aaron
              DH- Edgar Martinez
              RHP- Roger Clemens
              LHP- Randy Johnson
              RP- Mariano Rivera

              Greatest Living Player: Barry Bonds
              Last edited by NJRob65; 07-11-2019, 02:20 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                I've never rated Morgan very high. I don't think that he had that many great years.

                Alomar is a 12 time all star with 9 gold gloves. I didn't have any idea what his BA was until I looked it up.

                I don't worship at the altar of Joe Morgan, never have.
                JR, I'm with you on Joe Morgan being overrated (I think he was around 7th on my 2B list the last time we did our rankings, nearly everyone else had him in their top 2 or 3.

                With that said I do think Morgan's '75 or '76 season was probably the best by a living second baseman. I'm a big fan of Biggio's '97 season, Alomar's big season with Cleveland, Ryne Sandberg's '84 season is way up there...and a few others that escape my mind at the moment...but Morgan's best couple of years with the Big Red Machine are hard to top.
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Don't forget Chase Utley's 2008 and 2009!
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                    I've never rated Morgan very high. I don't think that he had that many great years.
                    Do you consider 1965 a great year, when he had a 132 OPS+ in the Astrodome?



                    .


                    19th Century League Champion
                    1900s League Champion
                    1910s League Champion

                    1930s League Division Winner
                    1950s League Champion
                    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                    1960s League Division Winner
                    1970s League Champion
                    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                    1980s League Champion
                    All Time Greats League Champion

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                      for example he was a much better hitter in Houston than on the road, but gets bonuses because park factors are too generic and overly boost him when he shouldn't get a boost.
                      Sigh.

                      Park factors are not about how hard it is to hit in each park. They are about how many runs are needed to win games in each park. If Morgan exceeded what would be expected in the Astrodome, he created more wins for his team. That's all that matters when measuring value.
                      .


                      19th Century League Champion
                      1900s League Champion
                      1910s League Champion

                      1930s League Division Winner
                      1950s League Champion
                      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                      1960s League Division Winner
                      1970s League Champion
                      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                      1980s League Champion
                      All Time Greats League Champion

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        RI just rate Alomar higher. Morgan is a clear HOFer
                        This week's Giant

                        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          In the past I've detailed Joe Morgan's early years in Houston before and to describe those early years as "wasn't that good" is simply not looking at the details of those seasons. In Morgan's case those details matter. The Joe Morgan in Cincinnati was clearly evident in Houston. There is one massive mitigating factor that stopped Morgan from really being perceived as a huge star in Houston. Morgan suffered two major leg injuries that caused him to miss seven weeks of the 1966 season and basically the entire 1968 season (Morgan only played 10 games).

                          Morgan was a rookie in 1965 and he had a big year.

                          .271/.373/.418, 131 OPS+, 5.7 WAR, 14 HR, 22 doubles, 12 triples, 100 R, 97 BB, 20 SB, 163 H, 251 TB

                          Morgan led the NL in walks and scored 100 runs for a team that only scored 569 runs and lost 97 games. In the one of the most absurd award voting Morgan finished second to Dodgers' shortstop Jim Lefebvre for NL Rookie of the Year.

                          .271/.373/.418, 131 OPS+, 14 HR, 22 doubles, 12 triples, 100 R, 97 BB, 20 SB, 163 H, 251 TB, 5.7 bWAR (Morgan)
                          .250/.337/.369, 106 OPS+, 12 HR, 21 doubles, 4 triples, 57 R, 71 BB, 3 SB, 136 H, 201 TB, 4.6 bWAR (Lefebvre)

                          In what bizarro baseball universe is Lefebvre better than Morgan? But Lefebvre played in for the NL champion LA Dodgers (huge media market) and Morgan played on a lousy expansion team that no one cared about. Morgan also garnered an MVP vote.

                          In 1966 Morgan built on his rookie season. For the first two months Morgan pounded the ball. And the baseball world was noticing. Players and the media alike were singing praises about how good Morgan was. And lets not forget that Morgan was not a slugger in an era of sluggers so that made his all around play even more amazing. Through June 24, 1966 (68 games) Morgan was hitting .319/.435/.438 with 50 walks and just 20 strikeouts. And the Astros were winning with a 37-31 W-L record. The Sporting News put Morgan on its cover. Hank Aaron said that Morgan is one the best players in the NL. Morgan was elected to start the All Star Game. And this was at a time when the players selected the starters. To me this speaks volumes as to how Morgan was viewed by the baseball establishment. Then before a game while standing in the infield during batting practice a batted ball fractured Morgan's knee. He missed about seven weeks of the season. When he came back it was clear the injury was still bothering him and he hit poorly the remainder if the season.
                          Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 07-12-2019, 10:39 AM.
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                            RI just rate Alomar higher. Morgan is a clear HOFer
                            I think they are very comparable players. We have to remember that Morgan had good timing to play in an era that maximized his talents and also with no real all time greats during his peak so he stood out more. A Joe Morgan in the steroid era would be another Alomar or Biggio IMO. He most certainly would not ever lead the league in OPS+ as he did in 1975-1976, nor would he approach the OPS+ he put up in those seasons. Likely his speed would be less of a factor and his steals would go down. He also got to play on an all time great team which no doubt helped his numbers.

                            Of course we don't know all this for certain and so we judge him based on what he actually did. But I can see how someone can rate Alomar or Biggio higher.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                              Sigh.

                              Park factors are not about how hard it is to hit in each park. They are about how many runs are needed to win games in each park. If Morgan exceeded what would be expected in the Astrodome, he created more wins for his team. That's all that matters when measuring value.
                              Sure, but how hard it is to hit in a park and how many runs needed to win/score are linked. These overall ball park factors are factored into every player's calculations.

                              However, each player is affected differently by their home park. For the majority of players, the ballpark factor is approximately correct. But some players get benefits or detriments that differ from that one factor. They might have better or worse visual hitting background - maybe they see better in a blue or green or white background. They might be ground ball pitchers who get additional slow rollers in heavily wetted down fields. They might be left handed hitters in old Sportsman's who had better power alleys than did right handed power hitters. Issues with certain RH power hitters in Yankee Stadium....Joe DiMaggio vs. Joe Gordon. Players who were able to take advantage of Astroturf fields but overall Astroturf fields being hard to hit in. Many more individual factors which helped or hurt a specific player but a single park factor is applied to everyone. I try to look at individual cases and make particular modifications.
                              Sox fans are the only ones who seem to remember the 1959 World Series happened.

                              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                              Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                              Comment

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