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By Position: Who is on your "Mount Rushmore"?

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  • #16
    The Mount Rushmore of Pitchers
    Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Mariano Rivera

    The Mount Rushmore of Catchers
    Buck Ewing, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza

    The Mount Rushmore of First Basemen
    Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Mark McGwire, Albert Pujols

    The Mount Rushmore of Second Basemen
    Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Jackie Robinson, Robinson Cano

    The Mount Rushmore of Third Basemen
    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Adrian Beltre

    The Mount Rushmore of Shortstops
    Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., Ozzie Smith

    The Mount Rushmore of Left Fielders
    Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Manny Ramirez

    The Mount Rushmore of Center Fielders
    Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Mike Trout

    The Mount Rushmore of Right Fielders
    Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth


    The Mount Rushmore of Designated Hitters
    Ron Blomberg, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, Harold Baines
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
      The Mount Rushmore of Pitchers
      Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Mariano Rivera

      The Mount Rushmore of Catchers
      Buck Ewing, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza

      The Mount Rushmore of First Basemen
      Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Mark McGwire, Albert Pujols

      The Mount Rushmore of Second Basemen
      Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Jackie Robinson, Robinson Cano

      The Mount Rushmore of Third Basemen
      George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Adrian Beltre

      The Mount Rushmore of Shortstops
      Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., Ozzie Smith

      The Mount Rushmore of Left Fielders
      Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Manny Ramirez

      The Mount Rushmore of Center Fielders
      Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Mike Trout

      The Mount Rushmore of Right Fielders
      Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth


      The Mount Rushmore of Designated Hitters
      Ron Blomberg, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, Harold Baines
      Blomberg would be a good trivia question.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post

        You omit ARod and Bonds. Is that because of PEDs?

        Jones over Cobb, Speaker and DiMaggio? Seriously?

        If that's because of an emphasis on defense, what's Williams doing in LF? And why not Boggs or Beltre over Brett?
        Good questions, and I'll address one by one.

        Yes, ARod and Bonds are omitted. The entire question of a Mt Rushmore amounts to sentiment, almost to the point of how we once thought of these guys when we were kids. PEDs amount to an automatic disqualification, regardless of accomplishment, because I would not tarnish how I perceive other players with maybes. The competition is that tough, and I would hope ARod, Bonds, or any other admitted user or player who has been convicted in a court of public opinion would recognize that. These players must have recognized the competition in their own time was that tough, or they would not have taken such career risks, nor associate with individuals who would cloud any reputation of purity. Mere association voids candidacy. Life is tough. The standard for a Mt Rushmore is that high when based on sentiment.

        BTW, that matter of sentiment is a factor on some other entries on the list. Regarding Ty Cobb, character issues void candidacy, see above. Regarding Speaker and DiMaggio, that is a much tougher call. It boils down to who I actually saw play. Since so much of this list is already weighted to the distant past, I would include recent players over the past as a tie breaker.

        And regarding Beltre v Brett, or Boggs v Brett, the choice is easy despite the numbers. Growing up in Northern Missouri, despite being a Cardinal fan, I would alter the choice of attending games whenever George was hot at the plate, which turned out to be often enough. George Brett was the only reason I would drive to KC, and I would meet plenty of fans from around the Midwest who did the same. From Colorado to Chicago, Des Moines, Iowa to Little Rock, Arkansas, there were fans in the stands who wanted to see him play. Beltre may very well be a worthy choice over Brett, but he isn't part of my game attendance past, and not on my scorecards in that box at home. As for Boggs, same story. Besides, Boggs tarnished any possible sentiment when he signed to play for his despised opponents.

        I'm well aware that both Speaker and DiMaggio are many times the player that Andruw Jones was, with many times the impact on baseball history. But it was Andruw who I watched on TV, and the list is slanted to the past enough as that is.

        And further BTW, in the spirit of position defense, I included Jim Kaat today as my pitcher because of his defense and overall consistency. Tomorrow, I could just as easily change it to Tom Seaver.
        Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

        A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

        Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post

          You omit ARod and Bonds. Is that because of PEDs?

          Jones over Cobb, Speaker and DiMaggio? Seriously?

          If that's because of an emphasis on defense, what's Williams doing in LF? And why not Boggs or Beltre over Brett?
          His emphasis on defense is fine with me, but the inclusion of Jim Kaat as one of the four greatest pitchers in baseball history seriously overestimates the value of glovework for a pitcher (IMO). His other lists are all certainly reasonable. I find Kaat simply indefensible, as (overall) one of history's top four. Seaver is a great alternative.
          Last edited by Chadwick; 08-13-2019, 12:30 PM.
          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
            2) I tire of the "rent a position" analysis. I wanted players who epitomize the position. My 4 catchers have about 99% of their career starts at catcher. And it's a pretty good group.
            I think I understand this, but your 95% threshold simply makes many all-time greats outright ineligible for any position. That seems a little harsh to me.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #21
              Bold choices, GiambiJuice! Why Greenberg and Big Mac over Double XX? On your third base list, why no Eddie Mathews?

              I think Cano is the one here that makes me smile the most.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                I think I understand this, but your 95% threshold simply makes many all-time greats outright ineligible for any position. That seems a little harsh to me.
                It is, but I wanted to see how it would come out.

                Many great players were over 90%. However, I learned a lot by doing it and don't think that I would change my catcher list. Those 4 really did the duty. What would Bench, Piazza, ect look like, if they would have caught 99% of their career starts?

                Dickey and Cochrane never started a game at any other position but catcher. incredible
                This week's Giant

                #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post
                  Since so much of this list is already weighted to the distant past, I would include recent players over the past as a tie breaker.
                  My favorite takeaway from your post, what type of balance should we be striving for, a fair representation of all eras?

                  When I get time, I'll try to pull together a list, but I did a quick check, I'm about 50/50, 20 guys from the first 75 years of baseball, 20 from the last 75.

                  What's everyone's thoughts here?

                  Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                  http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                    His emphasis on defense is fine with me, but the inclusion of Jim Kaat as one of the four greatest pitchers in baseball history seriously overestimates the value of glovework for a pitcher (IMO). His other lists are all certainly reasonable. I find Kaat simply indefensible, as (overall) one of history's top four. Seaver is a great alternative.
                    I agree. If Kaat had been a good enough fielder to deserve that recognition, he would have had a lower era and won more games as a result of it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                      My favorite takeaway from your post, what type of balance should we be striving for, a fair representation of all eras?

                      When I get time, I'll try to pull together a list, but I did a quick check, I'm about 50/50, 20 guys from the first 75 years of baseball, 20 from the last 75.

                      What's everyone's thoughts here?
                      I wasn't striving for "balance", merely trying to assess the top 4 all-time at each position. In cases of closeness, that tie almost always goes to the more recent player for me, however. Just under 29% of my list played (at least partially) in the 21st Century.
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by brett View Post
                        I believe Tom Seaver's road predicted ERA (rrERA+) is 133 which makes him a big mover in that department. It would put him at 120 or 121 pitching WAR and 79-80 pitching WAA. He is already matching Maddux without the ballpark adjustment. The home park neutralization would basicallly put him on par with Clemens* in WAA and WAR through age 40 (and though there have been some allegations that Seaver used peds, his drop in Ks starting around age 34 suggest that he aged normally). '71 actually projects to about a 240 ERA+ and 12 WAR with normal splits though I think home/road split data is more valid over the course of a career than a single season. Seaver's rrERA+ would make him undeniably the best pitcher since Grove (except Clemens) both in peak and career and probably better than Grove with LQ issues, making him most likely the best live ball pitcher ever, and therefore arguably the best pitcher ever.
                        I have grown to appreciate Seaver. He is on the short list of pitchers I would love to watch at his best.

                        Regarding Grove, perhaps deserves a LQ adjustment however there are other things to consider....him being a lefty in those parks, getting a late start, re-inventing himself after injury (ERA+ titles at 35,36, 38.39 anyone?) and he also pitched in relief when needed (led the league in saves in 1930) and it was still a time when not everyone was just swinging from the heels and he still led in K's seven straight and in WHIP five times. We haven't don't rrWHIP+ but methinks he would come out ok. I think Grove over time has slowly began getting his due but still under-rated. I love me some Grove and Maddux. I think you can't go wrong with that lefty righty combo.

                        On a side note I thought this was funny. Check out our boy Hans and his position player list in 1936!!!!! https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...90#post1069290
                        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 08-13-2019, 10:01 PM.
                        "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                        ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Position - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt:

                          C - Mickey Cochrane, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Yogi Berra
                          1B - Cap Anson, Albert Pujols, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
                          2B - Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Jackie Robinson, Rogers Hornsby
                          SS - Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr., Hans Wagner
                          3B - Brooks Robinson, Chipper Jones, Mike Schmidt, George Brett
                          LF - Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson
                          CF - Tris Speaker, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
                          RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Babe Ruth
                          SP - Cy Young, Greg Maddux, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                            Position - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt:

                            C - Mickey Cochrane, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Yogi Berra
                            1B - Cap Anson, Albert Pujols, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
                            2B - Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Jackie Robinson, Rogers Hornsby
                            SS - Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr., Hans Wagner
                            3B - Brooks Robinson, Chipper Jones, Mike Schmidt, George Brett
                            LF - Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson
                            CF - Tris Speaker, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
                            RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Babe Ruth
                            SP - Cy Young, Greg Maddux, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens
                            Need Grove where Clemens is.

                            Mathews over Jones, Morgan over Collins, Piazza over all of em. Great list overall Blue!
                            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I Think an effort should be made to represent different eras with each pick at each position, rather than just pick the 'four best'. With that in mind, here are my picks:

                              C - Mickey Cochrane, Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza
                              1B - Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial, Albert Pujols
                              2B - Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Charlie Gehringer, Joe Morgan
                              SS - Honus Wagner, Ernie Banks, Ozzie Smith, A-Rod
                              3B - Pie Traynor, Eddie Mathews, Mike Schmidt, Chipper Jones
                              LF - Ed Delahanty, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Barry Bonds
                              CF - Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Mike Trout
                              RF - Babe Ruth, Mel Ott, Hank Aaron, Vladimir Guerrero
                              SP - Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Roger Clemens, Clayton Kershaw

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

                                I have grown to appreciate Seaver. He is on the short list of pitchers I would love to watch at his best.

                                Regarding Grove, perhaps deserves a LQ adjustment however there are other things to consider....him being a lefty in those parks, getting a late start, re-inventing himself after injury (ERA+ titles at 35,36, 38.39 anyone?) and he also pitched in relief when needed (led the league in saves in 1930) and it was still a time when not everyone was just swinging from the heels and he still led in K's seven straight and in WHIP five times. We haven't don't rrWHIP+ but methinks he would come out ok. I think Grove over time has slowly began getting his due but still under-rated. I love me some Grove and Maddux. I think you can't go wrong with that lefty righty combo.

                                On a side note I thought this was funny. Check out our boy Hans and his position player list in 1936!!!!! https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...90#post1069290
                                Nice article, did you catch the part where he said becaase of the spitter (mery/shine ball) you couldn't take the long swing but needed to choke up and take a short swing due to the movement?

                                Comment

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