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All Whites team - post 1947

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  • #16
    Why born after 1948? Why not, begun career after 1948?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
      Why born after 1948? Why not, begun career after 1948?
      because Mickey Mantle, to use one example, did not play in a fully integrated league for the majority of his career. The Red Sox didn't even have their first black player until 1959. It took a generation or so for both leagues to be fully integrated. The 'born after 1947' cutoff is sort of arbitrary but seemed like as a good a place as any to draw the line.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

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      • #18
        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
        Who can make the best team using only white, US-born players who were born after baseball became integrated .
        Bench was born in December 1947, after Jackie had completed his first season. Carlton Fisk was born the same month. Makes no sense they're not eligible here.

        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
          Bench was born in December 1947, after Jackie had completed his first season. Carlton Fisk was born the same month. Makes no sense they're not eligible here.
          That's just the cutoff I decided on. It could have just as easily been 1950. Feel free to put Bench or Fisk on your team if you want!
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

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          • #20
            C - Mike Piazza. I have him rated as the number one catcher of all time, so looks strong for the white team here. Non-white team will have to field an inferior player.

            1B - Jeff Bagwell. I have him rated as a push for 4/5/6 with Frank Thomas and Jim Thome at first (yes, I know they aren't eligible here). Won't be quite as good as the non-white top contender Albert Pujols, but still a heck of a player.

            2B - Craig Biggio. Won't be as good as the non-white team's representative, Joe Morgan.

            SS - Cal Ripken. I have him ranked second all time behind Honus, so will be better than anyone the non-white team throws out there.

            3B - Mike Schmidt. I have him rated as the number one third baseman of all time, so looks strong for the white team here. Non-white team will have to field a weaker player.

            LF - White team takes a major hit, as their best candidate Carl Yastrzemski is a bit too old, even though he played well into the 1980's. He'd be close to the non-white team player Rickey Henderson. Instead the whites don't have a good candidate (IMO) - some of their good players like Pete Rose (old too) or Lance Berkman were multi-positional players. I cant think of a good long-term candidate. Whoever it is gets crushed by Rickey.

            CF - Mike Trout. I'm very wary of putting in mid-career players, but he does have a strong peak. Non-white candidate is Ken Griffey Jr. Maybe calling this as a push would be fair, because I don't know how good or bad Trout's second half a career will be. At this stage of their careers, Trout is up but Griffey's age 28 and 29 seasons are in the books and Trout is speculative. I'd take the known commodity Griffey personally, but acknowledge Trout could go higher.

            RF - Larry Walker if Canadians allowed. White team catches a bit of a break here, as Reggie Jackson would be the candidate for the non-whites, but he was born in 1946. Next best non-white is Tony Gwynn, who I feel is still better than Walker.

            DH - Jim Thome. I'll call it a push with the non-white candidate Frank Thomas. If you want career, Thome. If you want peak, Thomas. Wash.


            RHP - Greg Maddux. Best post-1947 born pitcher period. Will be superior to any the non-white team will throw out there.

            LHP - Randy Johnson. Second best post-1947 born pitcher. Will be superior to any the non-white team will throw out there.

            Relief - I loathe relievers, pick them however you want.


            Of those 11 positions, I think the white team has major advantages at catcher, short, third, RHP and LHP. Non-white team has a huge advantage in left and advantages at second, right and first. Pushes at center and DH.

            If pitching was extended to a five-man rotation, the non-white team would be hurting real bad.


            Edit: I misread, I thought anyone could DH. Seems a bit unfair to use 50% of the career mark for DH, as only players too injured or too fat are made full time DH's forever. I think there are only four all-time with any length of career - Hal McRae (too injured), Harold Baines (injured), David Ortiz (too fat) and Edgar Martinez (too injured). I think Jim Thome or Frank Thomas crush any one of those four.
            Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 08-13-2019, 05:39 PM.
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            • #21
              Makes sense that once the flood gates opened, a lot of very good talent will burst onto the scene, for at least 25 years or so, until other sports became more popular and pulled talent away. Not offended by this exercise at all, just don't think it tells us anything really. Especially doesn't suggest older era players' careers are tainted. Or put it this way, their careers are more legit than the rumors and exaggeration of playing in a slip-shod Negro league with unreliable stats and biased accounts everyone likes to fabricate legacies out of. Either way it's an interesting angle for discussion.
              Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 08-13-2019, 05:39 PM.

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              • #22
                Sounds like something I would have made when I was posting the integration information years ago. Can’t wait to do one.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                • #23
                  Biggio? Guy was being referred to as the worst 3,000 hit member when he reached it. He got about 5 points in his career OPS+ just from hit-by-pitches.

                  I take Ryan Sandberg or Jeff Kent over him.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                    until other sports became more popular and pulled talent away.
                    This is very often argued, but I feel it is overstated. Even with athletes moving toward basketball and football you still have an overall US population that has more than doubled since 1950 and tripled since 1920.

                    so without looking at ages we can estimate there were:

                    1920 - 46,809,945 people to choose from to play baseball (white americans, even though yes, some from Canada and other places)

                    1950 - 77,814,153 eligible Americans (including the non-white population who were still effectively not included for the most part, 69,643,667 white males).

                    2019 - 161,394,891 eligible Americans + Japan + Korea + South America

                    That is a huge difference.

                    Now this is not an attempt to discredit those who played prior to integration, that is a separate conversation that I don't want to have at the moment. This is more of an attempt to realize how much change has taken place in 70 years since integration.


                    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                    -Bill James

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by redban View Post
                      Biggio? Guy was being referred to as the worst 3,000 hit member when he reached it. He got about 5 points in his career OPS+ just from hit-by-pitches.

                      I take Ryan Sandberg or Jeff Kent over him.

                      It was very close for me between Biggio and Sandberg. I ultimately went with Biggio due to his superior on-base skills, versatility, and longevity.

                      Biggio is not the worst 3,000 hit club member. He was certainly better than Lou Brock. I would argue he was better than Dave Winfield too, all-around.
                      My top 10 players:

                      1. Babe Ruth
                      2. Barry Bonds
                      3. Ty Cobb
                      4. Ted Williams
                      5. Willie Mays
                      6. Alex Rodriguez
                      7. Hank Aaron
                      8. Honus Wagner
                      9. Lou Gehrig
                      10. Mickey Mantle

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                        This is very often argued, but I feel it is overstated. Even with athletes moving toward basketball and football you still have an overall US population that has more than doubled since 1950 and tripled since 1920.

                        so without looking at ages we can estimate there were:

                        1920 - 46,809,945 people to choose from to play baseball (white americans, even though yes, some from Canada and other places)

                        1950 - 77,814,153 eligible Americans (including the non-white population who were still effectively not included for the most part, 69,643,667 white males).

                        2019 - 161,394,891 eligible Americans + Japan + Korea + South America

                        That is a huge difference.

                        Now this is not an attempt to discredit those who played prior to integration, that is a separate conversation that I don't want to have at the moment. This is more of an attempt to realize how much change has taken place in 70 years since integration.

                        There may be more eligible men to play major league baseball but I believe that the percentage of these eligible men even trying to play baseball is probably much lower. I'll give you a personal example. I grew up in a small town about a hundred miles south of San Francisco. I played Little League baseball in 1979-81. According to the 1980 U.S. Census my hometown had a population of 23,662. At that time my hometown had three separate Little Leagues. I played in two of these leagues. The tryouts were an all day affair since there we so many kids trying out. In the second league I played in they had three different levels with six teams each, for a total of 18 teams. The other leagues had similar number of teams. So you had 50+ teams for a town of just over 23K people. But over the years participation in Little League in my hometown collapsed. By the mid 2000's two of the leagues were forced to merge and cut back on the number of teams because there just were not enough kids who signed up. The Little League field where I played was torn down. Per the 2010 U.S. Census my hometown had 51,279 people (in 2017 it had just over 54K). The population of my hometown has more than doubled since 1980 yet there are far fewer kids signing up to play Little League. Now, imagine this happening across the country in thousands of towns. The talent pool that eventually feeds into professional baseball has seemingly shrunk despite an increase in the population base.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                          There may be more eligible men to play major league baseball but I believe that the percentage of these eligible men even trying to play baseball is probably much lower. I'll give you a personal example. I grew up in a small town about a hundred miles south of San Francisco. I played Little League baseball in 1979-81. According to the 1980 U.S. Census my hometown had a population of 23,662. At that time my hometown had three separate Little Leagues. I played in two of these leagues. The tryouts were an all day affair since there we so many kids trying out. In the second league I played in they had three different levels with six teams each, for a total of 18 teams. The other leagues had similar number of teams. So you had 50+ teams for a town of just over 23K people. But over the years participation in Little League in my hometown collapsed. By the mid 2000's two of the leagues were forced to merge and cut back on the number of teams because there just were not enough kids who signed up. The Little League field where I played was torn down. Per the 2010 U.S. Census my hometown had 51,279 people (in 2017 it had just over 54K). The population of my hometown has more than doubled since 1980 yet there are far fewer kids signing up to play Little League. Now, imagine this happening across the country in thousands of towns. The talent pool that eventually feeds into professional baseball has seemingly shrunk despite an increase in the population base.
                          But that was still in 1980. 30 years after integration. the US population had more than doubled since Babe Ruth played. If we don't want to give current players credit, then what about players from the 80s-90s?

                          And even if there are much fewer there is still Japan where they take baseball more seriously with ~60-70 million men.
                          "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                          -Bill James

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                            Makes sense that once the flood gates opened, a lot of very good talent will burst onto the scene, for at least 25 years or so, until other sports became more popular and pulled talent away. Not offended by this exercise at all, just don't think it tells us anything really. Especially doesn't suggest older era players' careers are tainted. Or put it this way, their careers are more legit than the rumors and exaggeration of playing in a slip-shod Negro league with unreliable stats and biased accounts everyone likes to fabricate legacies out of. Either way it's an interesting angle for discussion.
                            This is exactly what happened. From 1947-60 the following all timers entered the majors.

                            Jackie Robinson (1947)
                            Roy Campanella (1948)
                            Willie Mays (1951)
                            Ernie Banks (1953)
                            Hank Aaron (1954)
                            Roberto Clemente (1954)
                            Frank Robinson (1956)
                            Willie McCovey (1959)
                            Bob Gibson (1959)

                            And then within a 11 year period all these guys debuted.

                            Rickey Henderson (1979)
                            Tim Raines (1979)
                            Tony Gwynn (1982)
                            Darryl Strawberry (1983)
                            Eric Davis (1984)
                            Kirby Puckett (1984)
                            Barry Bonds (1986)
                            Fred McGriff (1986)
                            Albert Belle (1989)
                            Gary Sheffield (1989)
                            Ken Griffey, Jr, (1989)
                            Frank Thomas (1990)

                            What an absurd amount of baseball talent. Since 1980 other than C.C. Sabathia how many Black players have any HOF case at all? Mookie Betts? Anyone else?
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

                              It was very close for me between Biggio and Sandberg. I ultimately went with Biggio due to his superior on-base skills, versatility, and longevity.

                              Biggio is not the worst 3,000 hit club member. He was certainly better than Lou Brock. I would argue he was better than Dave Winfield too, all-around.
                              No he isn't No player ever defines the word "compiler more than Biggio.

                              In his last NINE seasons, he has an OPS+ of 95. That's being a hanger on!

                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                                But that was still in 1980. 30 years after integration. the US population had more than doubled since Babe Ruth played. If we don't want to give current players credit, then what about players from the 80s-90s?
                                I don't understand your point here. I gave a specific example of how youth participation in Little League had significantly declined. How much does this affect the size of the talent pool that will eventually feed into professional baseball?

                                And even if there are much fewer there is still Japan where they take baseball more seriously with ~60-70 million men.
                                I don't understand the Japan argument. Other than Ichiro and Hideki Matsuji the Japanese position players as a group have been a complete bust. I think the last time I checked only Ichiro and Hideki Matsui are the only NPB players to produce more than 10 WAR in their careers. The Japanese pitchers have performed better. But I don't see a strong case that the Japanese players have significantly increased the LQ of MLB like how black players did post 1947. The NPB simply has not produced a player who came over to the US who played at superstar level other than Ichiro. Almost all of them don't hit for power in the majors. Matsui and Ohtani are the only NPB players to have a 20+ home run season in the majors.
                                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 08-14-2019, 12:44 PM.
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                                Comment

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