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All Whites team - post 1947

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

    No he isn't No player ever defines the word "compiler more than Biggio.

    In his last NINE seasons, he has an OPS+ of 95. That's being a hanger on!
    Brock aged better, I'll give you that. Still Biggio was a much better player. I don't see how it's even close.

    WAA
    Biggio 29.1
    Brock 8.4

    Batting Runs above average
    Biggio 257
    Brock 121

    Extra-base hits:
    Biggio 1,014 (36th all-time)
    Brock 776 (139th)

    Though not quite the speedster or baserunner that Brock was, Biggio was quite good in that regard as well:

    Baserunning Runs above average
    Biggio 54
    Brock 78


    I'm not going to be one of those people who says Brock doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame - he belongs - but there's no doubt in my mind that he was not nearly the caliber of player that Craig Biggio was.
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

      I don't understand your point here. I gave a specific example of how youth participation in Little League had significantly declined. How much does this affect the size of the talent pool that will eventually feed into professional baseball?
      Your single, anecdotal example did not explain the nature of the decline nor determine the peak participation. One way it could be interpreted is that your generation was the peak. If that was the case then players who played in the late 80's, early 90's had more people to compete against. In my local little league in the early 90's we had enough kids to have two separate divisions and a championship game. We were the first group to have that. So maybe the peak was the early 90's. In either event this would point to later generations post integration having more competition in playing time using your definition from your anecdote.

      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
      But I don't see a strong case that the Japanese players have significantly increased the LQ of MLB like how black players did post 1947. T
      I don't think I tried to make that case. I could with Dominican and Venezuelan players though.




      "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

      -Bill James

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

        Brock aged better, I'll give you that. Still Biggio was a much better player. I don't see how it's even close.

        WAA
        Biggio 29.1
        Brock 8.4

        Batting Runs above average
        Biggio 257
        Brock 121

        Extra-base hits:
        Biggio 1,014 (36th all-time)
        Brock 776 (139th)

        Though not quite the speedster or baserunner that Brock was, Biggio was quite good in that regard as well:

        Baserunning Runs above average
        Biggio 54
        Brock 78


        I'm not going to be one of those people who says Brock doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame - he belongs - but there's no doubt in my mind that he was not nearly the caliber of player that Craig Biggio was.

        ^ The eye-test. Brock was considered a star and felt like a Hall of Famer to those who watched him. Biggio was never seen in that light.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by redban View Post


          ^ The eye-test. Brock was considered a star and felt like a Hall of Famer to those who watched him. Biggio was never seen in that light.
          Brock was before my time but I seem to recall Biggio being referred to as a future hall of famer for the last several years of his career, well before reached 3,000 hits.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

            Brock aged better, I'll give you that. Still Biggio was a much better player. I don't see how it's even close.

            WAA
            Biggio 29.1
            Brock 8.4

            Batting Runs above average
            Biggio 257
            Brock 121

            Extra-base hits:
            Biggio 1,014 (36th all-time)
            Brock 776 (139th)

            Though not quite the speedster or baserunner that Brock was, Biggio was quite good in that regard as well:

            Baserunning Runs above average
            Biggio 54
            Brock 78


            I'm not going to be one of those people who says Brock doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame - he belongs - but there's no doubt in my mind that he was not nearly the caliber of player that Craig Biggio was.

            I think they are both players that compiled at the end to get to 3,000. Brock would still probably be in the hall of fame if he would have retired 3 years prior because of his fame at the time and his SB's, but not first ballot.

            Biggio would be struggling to get in.

            It is weird seeing JR use OPS+ (technically an advanced metric) and complaining about compilers though.
            "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

            -Bill James

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

              Brock was before my time but I seem to recall Biggio being referred to as a future hall of famer for the last several years of his career, well before reached 3,000 hits.
              Biggio was still a 3rd ballot HOFer even with 3,000 hits.

              note: I am not arguing Brock was better, I just understand how Brock was seen in his day.
              "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

              -Bill James

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                It is weird seeing JR use OPS+ (technically an advanced metric) and complaining about compilers though.
                Especially considering Biggio's career OPS+ is higher than Brock's
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

                  Especially considering Biggio's career OPS+ is higher than Brock's
                  Brock is in for baserunning and WS heroics, more than anything.
                  This week's Giant

                  #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                    Brock is in for baserunning and WS heroics, more than anything.
                    where I am from he is known for changing the momentum of the '68 series with this:



                    and being caught stealing on a pitch-out.

                    We tend to ignore the 6 steals in the previous 3 games...haha.

                    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                    -Bill James

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                      Brock is in for baserunning and WS heroics, more than anything.
                      Agreed.

                      And 3,000 hits made it a no-brainer.
                      My top 10 players:

                      1. Babe Ruth
                      2. Barry Bonds
                      3. Ty Cobb
                      4. Ted Williams
                      5. Willie Mays
                      6. Alex Rodriguez
                      7. Hank Aaron
                      8. Honus Wagner
                      9. Lou Gehrig
                      10. Mickey Mantle

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                        where I am from he is known for changing the momentum of the '68 series with this:



                        and being caught stealing on a pitch-out.

                        We tend to ignore the 6 steals in the previous 3 games...haha.
                        OH yes

                        I did a chart once showing Brock's series stats before and after that play.

                        He was hitting like .600 some with a ton of XBH before that play, not much afterward.
                        This week's Giant

                        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                          Your single, anecdotal example did not explain the nature of the decline nor determine the peak participation. One way it could be interpreted is that your generation was the peak. If that was the case then players who played in the late 80's, early 90's had more people to compete against.
                          Do you believe my hometown was an outlier or something that was wholly common across all of America? I actually don't know the answer to this. I keep asking myself how is it possible that a town of 23K can have more kids in Little League but 25-30 years later with more than double the population can only field about 2/3 the number of teams? That just makes no sense.

                          In my local little league in the early 90's we had enough kids to have two separate divisions and a championship game. We were the first group to have that. So maybe the peak was the early 90's. In either event this would point to later generations post integration having more competition in playing time using your definition from your anecdote.
                          This is definitely possible.


                          I don't think I tried to make that case. I could with Dominican and Venezuelan players though.
                          You mentioned the Japanese as adding to the talent pool for major leaguers. I was just commenting that the Japanese talent coming over to MLB hasn't been that dominant. I do agree that the Dominican and Venezuelan players as a group have significantly increased the LQ.

                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by redban View Post


                            ^ The eye-test. Brock was considered a star and felt like a Hall of Famer to those who watched him. Biggio was never seen in that light.
                            I thought Biggio played like a Hall of Famer in the 1990's.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                              Do you believe my hometown was an outlier or something that was wholly common across all of America? I actually don't know the answer to this. I keep asking myself how is it possible that a town of 23K can have more kids in Little League but 25-30 years later with more than double the population can only field about 2/3 the number of teams? That just makes no sense.
                              It is not an outlier.

                              https://www.ajc.com/sports/baseball/...VLZRthhDQFaIP/
                              My top 10 players:

                              1. Babe Ruth
                              2. Barry Bonds
                              3. Ty Cobb
                              4. Ted Williams
                              5. Willie Mays
                              6. Alex Rodriguez
                              7. Hank Aaron
                              8. Honus Wagner
                              9. Lou Gehrig
                              10. Mickey Mantle

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                                Biggio was still a 3rd ballot HOFer even with 3,000 hits.

                                note: I am not arguing Brock was better, I just understand how Brock was seen in his day.
                                I'm not sure this means anything. In 2013 no one was elected but Biggio had the highest voting percentage at 68.2%. In 2014 Biggio went up against Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, and Tom Glavine who all got in. But Biggio still had 74.8% (fell two measly votes shy). Biggio was elected in 2015 with 82.7%.
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                                Comment

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