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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    So did almost everyone. He isn't a top-half guy or anything, but he was a 7 or 8x all-star and was considered the second-best 2B of the decade behind Alomar. I mean he got about twice as many votes (%) in his first year of eligibility than Garvey EVER got, so he must have been thought highly by SOMEBODY, at least.

    But Biggio >>>> Kent. His wRC+ is behind by 8 points, but he was a better fielder, player longer, wasn't nearly as tragic as Kent in high-leverage situations (-90 runs...woof), was a SIGNIFICANTLY better baserunner, and was certainly a bigger STAR (since that is so important to some people) as he played in more ASGs and faired MUCH better with the BBWAA.
    Wouldn't say Biggio's defense gives him any edge over Kent. Both were average.

    Kent had 5 ASG. Biggio had 7 ASG. Those 2 more ASGs aren't critical, especially as Kent won an MVP (which Biggio didn't). Kent set the record for most HR by a 2B. From 2003-2004, people were talking about Kent as a HOFer (not slam-dunk but as a serious case). People didn't talk about Biggio like that.

    Biggio fared "MUCH better" with the BBWAA because they were protecting the sanctity of 3,000 hits milestone.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post


      What about Jeter? Could he have played before 1947?
      I doubt it. He's half black. Didn't Roy Campanella play in the Negro Leagues?
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by redban View Post

        Wouldn't say Biggio's defense gives him any edge over Kent. Both were average.

        Kent had 5 ASG. Biggio had 7 ASG. Those 2 more ASGs aren't critical, especially as Kent won an MVP (which Biggio didn't). Kent set the record for most HR by a 2B. From 2003-2004, people were talking about Kent as a HOFer (not slam-dunk but as a serious case). People didn't talk about Biggio like that.

        Biggio fared "MUCH better" with the BBWAA because they were protecting the sanctity of 3,000 hits milestone.
        I don't recall this at all. I recall Biggio being basically sure fire at the turn of the century while Kent was considered a potential candidate who suffered from a late start; particularly when he was winding down with the Dodgers. I support Kent for the HoF.

        Anyhow, there are a lot of differences between the kind of player Biggio was compared to Kent. Lead off hitters always look short of middle of the order hitters because slugging percentage is a secondary skill to them so they have suppressed OPS's and advanced stats derived from it because their role and style of play ignores half the component.

        Biggio was a lead off batter. He hit a ton of doubles, got hit by lots of pitches, walked, hit .300, stole bases so literally everything a lead off guy is supposed to do for a perfect decade from '90-99. He found himself in scoring position plenty and scored a ton of runs with Bagwell hitting third. His power hitting was a nice bonus but was simply a complementary part of his game to his lead off skill set - which was perfected. Defensively he came up as a catcher where he was a 1x AS and won a SS and moved to second where he won 4 GG owed partly to his fame and offense while being a plus but not near a historic defender. Then he moved center field at 37 and LF/CF the next year before moving back to second. This was done to accommodate...

        Jeff Kent!! Since he couldn't play anywhere but second and first base.

        He was of course a middle of the order power hitter. He wasn't as good a defender at second as Biggio and was a first baseman when not playing second. Biggio's athleticism and arm allowed him to play catcher and CF at opposite ends of his career. I think Biggio's skill set, which was rooted more in natural athleticism, is what got him to the major leagues sooner, allowed him to move to a position that would allow his hitting to thrive and allowed him to play full seasons through age 41 and play well through age 40. As I said earlier once Biggio largely perfected his lead off skills he started hitting 20 HR a year as a complimentary skill. Kent could never develop athleticism through any kind of hard work. This isn't to knock Kent's skills. It just shows how much better an all-around player Biggio was. Kent hit for power better than Biggio. But that's the only skill in which he is obviously better than Biggio. Hitting for average is a wash between them without looking too closely at it.

        In my opinion Biggio is obviously the better player than Kent.

        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by redban View Post

          Wouldn't say Biggio's defense gives him any edge over Kent. Both were average.

          Kent had 5 ASG. Biggio had 7 ASG. Those 2 more ASGs aren't critical, especially as Kent won an MVP (which Biggio didn't). Kent set the record for most HR by a 2B. From 2003-2004, people were talking about Kent as a HOFer (not slam-dunk but as a serious case). People didn't talk about Biggio like that.

          Biggio fared "MUCH better" with the BBWAA because they were protecting the sanctity of 3,000 hits milestone.
          I'd say Biggio was average and Kent was below average. Biggio was decent enough that he played some CF and catcher and didn't completely embarrass himself at either. Its isn't a massive difference - but one of many that makes a difference, IMHO.

          The ASG differences are not large and I personally don't care - but there is certainly no indication in those ASG selections that Kent was MORE popular and respected than Biggio, as you suggested.

          Wow- we must have been in very different places or had many different experiences watching baseball because I remember a LOT more discussion about Biggio as FHOFer than Kent. Maybe it was because I saw LOTS of NLCS games, but I remember people talking about Biggio as HOFer much earlier and much more often than Kent. I thought from day 1 of retirement that kent was going to be an iffy case.

          I don't remember anyone saying anything about Kent as a HOFer until after he magically and mysteriously morphed into a good hitter the second half of his career and looked like he was going to break the 2B HR record. Even STILL after that, I remember people debating about him being a HOFer. I don't remember anyone debating about Biggio being a HOFer towards the end.

          I get that Biggio's 3,000 hit milestone was important to voters, but if Kent didn't hit the arbitrary 2B HR mark, he'd have even LESS support than the little BBWAA support he has now. My guess is that Biggio was going to eventually make it even without 3,000 hits due to the 5 GGs and 600 doubles and 400 SBs. Kent can't even get close WITH the 2B HR title.

          And apparently (cough 18% after 6 years cough) all of those people who thought he was a HOFer either forgot or changed their minds.
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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          • #65
            Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

            I don't recall this at all. I recall Biggio being basically sure fire at the turn of the century while Kent was considered a potential candidate who suffered from a late start; particularly when he was winding down with the Dodgers.
            Apparently, you and I watched the same baseball shows/read the same baseball publications.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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            • #66
              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

              I doubt it. He's half black. Didn't Roy Campanella play in the Negro Leagues?
              Yup. Started at 16, I believe.
              It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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              • #67
                Originally posted by 64Cards View Post

                Yup. Started at 16, I believe.
                Campy was 15 actually. Can you imagine a freshman/sophomore aged kid playing professional baseball today?
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                  Campy was 15 actually. Can you imagine a freshman/sophomore aged kid playing professional baseball today?
                  Harper could have been a regular in the majors at 17 in my opinion. Robin Yount almost definitely could have outplayed the Brewers SS in '73 at age 17. If any modern player could have played in the majors at 15-16 I'd say A-Rod.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                    Apparently, you and I watched the same baseball shows/read the same baseball publications.
                    yeah, I seem to remember Biggio being an all-star but the HOF talk started when he started getting close to 3,000.

                    Kent, on the other hand, seemed to drool over Kent and totally ignored his defense. Many seemed to love the fact that he did not like Bonds.
                    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                    -Bill James

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                    • #70
                      Biggio and I grew up in the same town. That should account for something. LOL
                      Seriously, I never thought of Kent in the same light as Biggio. Sure Kent had some good years and an MVP. But it seems Biggio's peak was longer..(at least in my memory. I didn't actually look at the stats.) That definitely should account for something or all the complaints I hear about Koufax and Dean are just words. This argument may be shot full of holes. But that's okay.
                      As for the HOF, I really don't have a problem with Kent. I'm not going to raise a stink if he never gets in though.
                      Sandberg is a different story. I might take him over Biggio. But it's close.
                      27 World Championships
                      22 retired numbers
                      Isn't it great to be a Yankee fan?
                      Baseball was, is, and always will be to me the best sport-Babe Ruth

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by pedrosrotatorcuff View Post
                        Canuckland is way whiter than the US.
                        Uhhh, not anymore it isn't. The non-white population in Canada is growing rapidly.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                          I don't recall this at all. I recall Biggio being basically sure fire at the turn of the century while Kent was considered a potential candidate who suffered from a late start; particularly when he was winding down with the Dodgers. I support Kent for the HoF.
                          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                          I'd say Biggio was average and Kent was below average. Biggio was decent enough that he played some CF and catcher and didn't completely embarrass himself at either. Its isn't a massive difference - but one of many that makes a difference, IMHO.

                          The ASG differences are not large and I personally don't care - but there is certainly no indication in those ASG selections that Kent was MORE popular and respected than Biggio, as you suggested.

                          Wow- we must have been in very different places or had many different experiences watching baseball because I remember a LOT more discussion about Biggio as FHOFer than Kent. Maybe it was because I saw LOTS of NLCS games, but I remember people talking about Biggio as HOFer much earlier and much more often than Kent. I thought from day 1 of retirement that kent was going to be an iffy case.

                          I don't remember anyone saying anything about Kent as a HOFer until after he magically and mysteriously morphed into a good hitter the second half of his career and looked like he was going to break the 2B HR record. Even STILL after that, I remember people debating about him being a HOFer. I don't remember anyone debating about Biggio being a HOFer towards the end.

                          I get that Biggio's 3,000 hit milestone was important to voters, but if Kent didn't hit the arbitrary 2B HR mark, he'd have even LESS support than the little BBWAA support he has now. My guess is that Biggio was going to eventually make it even without 3,000 hits due to the 5 GGs and 600 doubles and 400 SBs. Kent can't even get close WITH the 2B HR title.

                          And apparently (cough 18% after 6 years cough) all of those people who thought he was a HOFer either forgot or changed their minds.

                          Biggio was never seen as "sure fire" until 3,000 hits. (And even after 3,000 hits, there was debate that he was the worst player to reach it) Before 3,000 hits, Biggio's HOF case was a fringe movement.

                          Kent had a serious case beginning around 2003-2004. I am not saying that people considered him a slam-dunk case; I'm merely saying that it wasn't a fringe movement or a joke like Biggio pre-3000 hits.

                          Let me ask you this --- had Kent reached 3000 hits (say Mets gave him more playing time and he stayed behind an extra 2 seasons), do you think people would have cited him as the worst 3,000-hit member, the way they talk about Biggio?

                          As for the 18% HOF, that doesn't necessarily signify much about how the player was viewed at the time. Delgado was considered a future HOFer at the time, and one of the biggest stars of the game; he was one and done.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by redban View Post




                            Biggio was never seen as "sure fire" until 3,000 hits. (And even after 3,000 hits, there was debate that he was the worst player to reach it) Before 3,000 hits, Biggio's HOF case was a fringe movement.

                            Kent had a serious case beginning around 2003-2004. I am not saying that people considered him a slam-dunk case; I'm merely saying that it wasn't a fringe movement or a joke like Biggio pre-3000 hits.

                            Let me ask you this --- had Kent reached 3000 hits (say Mets gave him more playing time and he stayed behind an extra 2 seasons), do you think people would have cited him as the worst 3,000-hit member, the way they talk about Biggio?

                            As for the 18% HOF, that doesn't necessarily signify much about how the player was viewed at the time. Delgado was considered a future HOFer at the time, and one of the biggest stars of the game; he was one and done.
                            I don't think any of these perceptions ever happened except for you.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                              Not to get too racial but the "white team" would have an insane 5 man starting staff.

                              Roger Clemens
                              Greg Maddux
                              Randy Johnson,
                              Clayton Kershaw
                              Pick one (Roy Halladay, Zack Grienke, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander)

                              The "non-white" team wouldn't have anywhere near this type of pitching depth IMO. After Pedro Martinez is there another all time great "non-white" pitcher born since 1947? Juan Marichal and Bob Gibson were both born in the mid 1930's. Fergie Jenkins was born in 1942.

                              Pedro Martinez
                              C.C. Sabathia
                              Vida Blue
                              Johann Santana
                              Dwight Gooden?

                              The white pitching staff completely blows away the non-white pitching staff.
                              David Price?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by redban View Post




                                Biggio was never seen as "sure fire" until 3,000 hits. (And even after 3,000 hits, there was debate that he was the worst player to reach it) Before 3,000 hits, Biggio's HOF case was a fringe movement.

                                Kent had a serious case beginning around 2003-2004. I am not saying that people considered him a slam-dunk case; I'm merely saying that it wasn't a fringe movement or a joke like Biggio pre-3000 hits.

                                Let me ask you this --- had Kent reached 3000 hits (say Mets gave him more playing time and he stayed behind an extra 2 seasons), do you think people would have cited him as the worst 3,000-hit member, the way they talk about Biggio?

                                As for the 18% HOF, that doesn't necessarily signify much about how the player was viewed at the time. Delgado was considered a future HOFer at the time, and one of the biggest stars of the game; he was one and done.


                                Unless you think I am a liar - I heard TONS of people calling Biggio a FHOFer as far back as the late 90's.

                                I also don't remember people calling Delgado a FHOFer. Maybe it was happening on the east coast.

                                And yes - Kent would absolutely be talked about as one of the worst 3,000 hit guys if he hung on to get it. Most 3,000 hit guys are no-brainers who are well past borderline.

                                Like I said - we must have been looking at and listening to VERY different things.
                                Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-16-2019, 08:20 AM.
                                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                                Comment

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