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All Whites team - post 1947

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by massa1177 View Post

    Numerous players with Spanish last names such as Keith Hernandez and Lou Piniella should be considered "white." They both have direct ancestry from Spain.

    Players with Cuban ancestry like Luis Gonzalez and Tino Martinez would be as well.

    Alex Rodriguez to me looks tri-racial: white, black, indigenous.
    He's pentaracial: white, black, indigenous, andro and j-lo.

    Leave a comment:


  • massa1177
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

    I've never thought of Edgar as white but I suppose a case can be made. It is news to me that he was born in NY, I thought Puerto Rico. I mean, technically Alex Rodriguez was born in NY too and he has pretty light skin...but I don't think people consider him "white".
    Numerous players with Spanish last names such as Keith Hernandez and Lou Piniella should be considered "white." They both have direct ancestry from Spain.

    Players with Cuban ancestry like Luis Gonzalez and Tino Martinez would be as well.

    Alex Rodriguez to me looks tri-racial: white, black, indigenous.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Everyone...

    Am I losing my mind? Am I the only one that remembers Craig Biggio being referred to as a FHOF even before it was absolutely evident he would reach 3,000 hits? Have I finally lost it?

    Am I the only one that did NOT remember a lot of Kent HOF hype until it was apparent that he would grab the 2B HR crown?
    The Killer Bs with Bagwell and Biggio was a big thing. Biggio also was leading the league in one category or another such as R, 2B or H, maybe even SB for a few years running IIRC.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    I was a big fan of both Alomar and Biggio. I would agree that Alomar probably was rated slightly higher during most of their careers, but I don't think there was a big difference. Alomar was seen as a better fielder (I agree), but Biggio provided more pop at the plate, though Alomar also was a good hitter. Biggio got extra kudos for being a decent/good defender at 3 very different positions.

    Alomar Biggio
    All Star 12 7
    7+ WAR 2 1
    5-6.9 WAR 4 4
    4-4.9 WAR 3 4
    OPS+ 116 112
    Extra Base Hits 794 1014
    SB 474 414
    Gold Glove 10 4
    Silver Sluggers 4 5
    Top 10 MVP 5 3
    HOF Year 2 Year 3

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    I hated the Astros and was no fan of Biggio. They were the Birds biggest rival BY FAR at the time. Nice job with your fundamental attribution errors, though. Why don't you run a poll about what we remember re: Delgado, Biggio, and Kent and who was more widely respected while active.

    BTW - I am talking about the media and Delgado - not what the people in our tiny, irrelevant corner think about him.
    Exactly. Outside of a few tight circles nobody was talking about advanced stats when these guys were playing. Particularly in the legacy media where most people got their baseball information.

    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

    I don't buy it either. Alomar was considered the better player of the two by the vast majority of people.
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    That was my recollection too. But not at the expense of saying Biggio was NOT a HOFer. Alomar was the bigger star when active, though.

    Er..I mean...Go Biggio cuz I luv u!
    I also recall Alomar being considered better than Biggio while they were active. In no small part because of his defensive prowess and double play combination with Omar Vizquel that both got him plenty of highlights. Plus Alomar was in the playoffs and especially world series more often. I think his all-star appearances, awards, performance and perception bare this out pretty obviously.

    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

    No, you're not the only one who remembers Biggio being referred to as a HOF candidate years before he retired. There's a lot of misinformation in this thread- Biggio actually probably had even more positive HOF talk before his last few seasons, when he was declining and not nearly the player he had been. And yes, he and Alomar were frequently compared, and Biggio came out ahead as often as not. In my opinion Biggio still would have (deservingly) been elected to the HOF if he had retired 2 years earlier and not reached 3000 hits
    There sure is.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 08-16-2019, 12:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

    I don't buy it either. Alomar was considered the better player of the two by the vast majority of people.
    That was my recollection too. But not at the expense of saying Biggio was NOT a HOFer. Alomar was the bigger star when active, though.

    Er..I mean...Go Biggio cuz I luv u!

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Everyone...

    Am I losing my mind? Am I the only one that remembers Craig Biggio being referred to as a FHOF even before it was absolutely evident he would reach 3,000 hits? Have I finally lost it?

    Am I the only one that did NOT remember a lot of Kent HOF hype until it was apparent that he would grab the 2B HR crown?
    I remember many times people speaking about the future HOF B&B combination in the early 2000's, well before the Sox played Houston in the 2005 World Series. I don't remember any San Francisco Kent HOF talk, I think I started hearing about Kent and the HOF in his last year of Houston/first year in LA - definitely not with SF.

    These were national or local (non-SF) feeds, so SF media could have been different.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by redban View Post

    Ugh, this is getting worse ... Biggio was considered better than Alomar, yeah.
    I don't buy it either. Alomar was considered the better player of the two by the vast majority of people.

    Leave a comment:


  • redban
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

    No, you're not the only one who remembers Biggio being referred to as a HOF candidate years before he retired. There's a lot of misinformation in this thread- Biggio actually probably had even more positive HOF talk before his last few seasons, when he was declining and not nearly the player he had been. And yes, he and Alomar were frequently compared, and Biggio came out ahead as often as not. In my opinion Biggio still would have (deservingly) been elected to the HOF if he had retired 2 years earlier and not reached 3000 hits
    Ugh, this is getting worse ... Biggio was considered better than Alomar, yeah.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Everyone...

    Am I losing my mind? Am I the only one that remembers Craig Biggio being referred to as a FHOF even before it was absolutely evident he would reach 3,000 hits? Have I finally lost it?

    Am I the only one that did NOT remember a lot of Kent HOF hype until it was apparent that he would grab the 2B HR crown?
    No, you're not the only one who remembers Biggio being referred to as a HOF candidate years before he retired. There's a lot of misinformation in this thread- Biggio actually probably had even more positive HOF talk before his last few seasons, when he was declining and not nearly the player he had been. And yes, he and Alomar were frequently compared, and Biggio came out ahead as often as not. In my opinion Biggio still would have (deservingly) been elected to the HOF if he had retired 2 years earlier and not reached 3000 hits

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Everyone...

    Am I losing my mind? Am I the only one that remembers Craig Biggio being referred to as a FHOF even before it was absolutely evident he would reach 3,000 hits? Have I finally lost it?

    Am I the only one that did NOT remember a lot of Kent HOF hype until it was apparent that he would grab the 2B HR crown?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by redban View Post

    People did call Delgado a strong HOF candidate when he was active, a lot moreso than Biggio pre-3000th hit. Delgado was the face of a franchise; people bought tickets to see him; he got a lot of attention during the 2004 offseason; was part of the big trade in 2005.

    Here's the thread, with posts from people commenting on his HOF candidancy while he was active. The general consensus is "close," "right on the borderline," "yes," or "just just just below the mark":

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...edition/page12


    Before 3000 hits, Biggio was never seen as a HOF talent, never considered an all-time great, people didn't buy tickets to see him, people didn't leave the ballpark thinking they saw a great player when he watched him. Biggio made the HOF strictly because the writers were protecting the 3000 hit milestone. Just say that you like Biggio or you're an Astros fan instead of claiming that he regarded as the NL Roberto Alomar.
    I hated the Astros and was no fan of Biggio. They were the Birds biggest rival BY FAR at the time. Nice job with your fundamental attribution errors, though. Why don't you run a poll about what we remember re: Delgado, Biggio, and Kent and who was more widely respected while active.

    BTW - I am talking about the media and Delgado - not what the people in our tiny, irrelevant corner think about him.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-16-2019, 11:25 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • redban
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Sure. but were people WHEN ACTIVE calling him a FHOFer? Moreso than Craig Biggio?

    I agree that Delgado was equal to or better than Ortiz.
    People did call Delgado a strong HOF candidate when he was active, a lot moreso than Biggio pre-3000th hit. Delgado was the face of a franchise; people bought tickets to see him; he got a lot of attention during the 2004 offseason; was part of the big trade in 2005.

    Here's the thread, with posts from people commenting on his HOF candidancy while he was active. The general consensus is "close," "right on the borderline," "yes," or "just just just below the mark":

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...edition/page12


    Before 3000 hits, Biggio was never seen as a HOF talent, never considered an all-time great, people didn't buy tickets to see him, people didn't leave the ballpark thinking they saw a great player when he watched him. Biggio made the HOF strictly because the writers were protecting the 3000 hit milestone. Just say that you like Biggio or you're an Astros fan instead of claiming that he regarded as the NL Roberto Alomar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by massa1177 View Post

    Not to get "racial" either but starting pitchers in the MLB is one of the few positions in professional sports where White Americans have never given up "dominance." You can probably say the same of the QB position in the NFL too. This is in contrast to the NBA and certain skill positions in the NFL where White Americans don't even compete anymore.
    I've always wondered why. It seems white basketball players are now restricted to big men or point guards. What happened to guys like Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes,Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Rick Berry, Dave Cowens, John Havlicek, Larry Bird, Bobby Jones, Kevin McHale?

    Leave a comment:


  • massa1177
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Not to get too racial but the "white team" would have an insane 5 man starting staff.

    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson,
    Clayton Kershaw
    Pick one (Roy Halladay, Zack Grienke, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander)

    The "non-white" team wouldn't have anywhere near this type of pitching depth IMO. After Pedro Martinez is there another all time great "non-white" pitcher born since 1947? Juan Marichal and Bob Gibson were both born in the mid 1930's. Fergie Jenkins was born in 1942.

    Pedro Martinez
    C.C. Sabathia
    Vida Blue
    Johann Santana
    Dwight Gooden?

    The white pitching staff completely blows away the non-white pitching staff.
    Not to get "racial" either but starting pitchers in the MLB is one of the few positions in professional sports where White Americans have never given up "dominance." You can probably say the same of the QB position in the NFL too. This is in contrast to the NBA and certain skill positions in the NFL where White Americans don't even compete anymore.

    Leave a comment:

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