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Best Player to Never Win a Title, by Franchise

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  • Best Player to Never Win a Title, by Franchise

    Will Leitch had this column at MLB.com today.

    Per Leitch, the list examines "the best player in franchise history for every team who never ended up getting a World Series title. We’re not talking about the best player to only briefly play for that franchise: We mean player who had the best career with that particular team who never won a title anywhere, with that team or elsewhere."

    If you just want the list, without reading the entire article, see below.


    Blue Jays – Roy Halladay
    Orioles – George Sisler
    Rays – Evan Longoria
    Red Sox – Ted Williams
    Yankees – Don Mattingly


    Indians – Nap Lajoie
    Royals – Amos Otis
    Tigers – Ty Cobb
    Twins – Rod Carew
    White Sox – Luke Appling


    Angels – Mike Trout
    Astros – Jeff Bagwell
    A’s – Eric Chavez
    Mariners – Ken Griffey Jr.
    Rangers – Adrian Beltre


    Braves – Phil Niekro
    Marlins – Giancarlo Stanton
    Mets – David Wright
    Nationals – Ryan Zimmerman
    Phillies – Robin Roberts


    Brewers – Robin Yount
    Cardinals – Ted Simmons
    Cubs – Ernie Banks
    Pirates – Barry Bonds
    Reds – Joey Votto


    Diamondbacks – Paul Goldschmidt
    Dodgers – Clayton Kershaw
    Giants – Barry Bonds
    Padres – Tony Gwynn
    Rockies – Todd Helton
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  • #2
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Will Leitch had this column at MLB.com today.

    Per Leitch, the list examines "the best player in franchise history for every team who never ended up getting a World Series title. We’re not talking about the best player to only briefly play for that franchise: We mean player who had the best career with that particular team who never won a title anywhere, with that team or elsewhere."

    Nationals – Ryan Zimmerman
    You think he's better than Dawson and Larry Walker?

    Comment


    • #3
      I might go with Vaughan for the Pirates and Bonds just for the Giants.

      Comment


      • #4
        Mets or Dodgers - - Piazza

        Maybe Killebrew over Carew for the Twins.

        Comment


        • #5
          How about the all time team of non winners.

          C - Piazza
          1B - McCovey / Bagwell
          2B - Lajoie
          SS - Vaughan
          3B - Beltre
          LF - Bonds
          CF - Griffey
          RF - Cobb
          DH - Ted
          P - G. Perry
          P - Marichal
          P - Kershaw


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
            You think he's better than Dawson and Larry Walker?
            I do not, but it's not my list.

            You suggest some outstanding substitutions.

            Mets - Mike Piazza
            Nationals - Andre Dawson
            Pirates - Arky Vaughan

            Personally, I would keep Carew > Killebrew, but would add the following:

            A's - Bob Johnson
            Rockies - Larry Walker
            Royals - Zack Greinke (as of this moment)
            Yankees - Mike Mussina
            Last edited by Chadwick; 10-22-2019, 04:58 AM.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #7
              Too bad Simmons wasnt on the 82 cards. A trio of Simmons, Ozzie, and McGee in the 80s sounds great.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JessePopHaines16 View Post
                Too bad Simmons wasnt on the 82 cards. A trio of Simmons, Ozzie, and McGee in the 80s sounds great.
                Had Simmons remained with St. Louis, he could have been the starting first baseman in the 1985 and 1987 World Series for them. That would keep Jack Clark (in 1985 and 1987) in right field, presumably. It's hard to say how much a difference this would have made, either way, to the offenses of those teams (other than Simmons being much slower on the bases than Andy Van Slyke and Curt Ford) during those latter two pennants. It would, however, have kept Simmons with one team, identifying him better as a Cardinals icon and removing the stigma of being associated with the also-ran Cards of the 1970s. Who's to say if things would have turned out differently for St. Louis, but I'd wager Simmons would have found somewhat more favorable treatment from the voters at least.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                  You think he's better than Dawson and Larry Walker?
                  The author said in the piece that if he included the Expos years of the franchise, Dawson would be the guy. He was just looking at the DC era.

                  Walker would have been excluded by the author's criteria that the player had to have played a meaningful part of his career with the team. That's subjective...Walker was a good player in Montreal for several seasons...but it's indisputable that Walker will primarily be remembered by history as a Rockie.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Prime Porter and prime Tony Pena were not too far off in terms of overall value than old-Simmons. 1985 and 1987 Simmons would not have helped the Cardinals much at all. Simmons would have to have done better than NLCS AND WS MVP to have done better than Porter in 1982.
                    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                      Had Simmons remained with St. Louis, he could have been the starting first baseman in the 1985 and 1987 World Series for them. That would keep Jack Clark (in 1985 and 1987) in right field, presumably. It's hard to say how much a difference this would have made, either way, to the offenses of those teams (other than Simmons being much slower on the bases than Andy Van Slyke and Curt Ford) during those latter two pennants. It would, however, have kept Simmons with one team, identifying him better as a Cardinals icon and removing the stigma of being associated with the also-ran Cards of the 1970s. Who's to say if things would have turned out differently for St. Louis, but I'd wager Simmons would have found somewhat more favorable treatment from the voters at least.
                      With all of the trades that Cardinals made, maybe they don't win with Simmons. The Simmons trade was a domino with a lot of moves. The team would have been vastly different.
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                        I do not, but it's not my list.

                        You suggest some outstanding substitutions.

                        Mets - Mike Piazza
                        Nationals - Andre Dawson
                        Pirates - Arky Vaughan

                        Personally, I would keep Carew > Killebrew, but would add the following:

                        A's - Bob Johnson
                        Rockies - Larry Walker
                        Royals - Zack Greinke (as of this moment)
                        Yankees - Mike Mussina
                        Walker had the better career overall but Helton had the better career with the franchise. He is the Rockies all-time leader in almost every category.
                        My top 10 players:

                        1. Babe Ruth
                        2. Barry Bonds
                        3. Ty Cobb
                        4. Ted Williams
                        5. Willie Mays
                        6. Alex Rodriguez
                        7. Hank Aaron
                        8. Honus Wagner
                        9. Lou Gehrig
                        10. Mickey Mantle

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

                          Walker had the better career overall but Helton had the better career with the franchise. He is the Rockies all-time leader in almost every category.
                          I look at this as the best player taking primacy over which franchise to put him with, much as we generally understand player rankings by position. Rod Carew is arguably the 5th or 6th greatest second baseman ever, but that's looking at his entire career, not just his time at second base. I took the same approach to this list. Whether the author did, or others do,....I'm not going to argue with that. Thought that explaining my approach might prove useful in explaining my selections, though.

                          Walker > Helton
                          Helton's COL career > Walker's COL career

                          Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I gave precedence to the first of the above two assertions. YMMV
                          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                            I look at this as the best player taking primacy over which franchise to put him with, much as we generally understand player rankings by position. Rod Carew is arguably the 5th or 6th greatest second baseman ever, but that's looking at his entire career, not just his time at second base. I took the same approach to this list. Whether the author did, or others do,....I'm not going to argue with that. Thought that explaining my approach might prove useful in explaining my selections, though.

                            Walker > Helton
                            Helton's COL career > Walker's COL career

                            Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I gave precedence to the first of the above two assertions. YMMV
                            I was just going off what you wrote in the original post:

                            "We’re not talking about the best player to only briefly play for that franchise: We mean player who had the best career with that particular team who never won a title anywhere, with that team or elsewhere."
                            My top 10 players:

                            1. Babe Ruth
                            2. Barry Bonds
                            3. Ty Cobb
                            4. Ted Williams
                            5. Willie Mays
                            6. Alex Rodriguez
                            7. Hank Aaron
                            8. Honus Wagner
                            9. Lou Gehrig
                            10. Mickey Mantle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If the cards would have brought in Porter while keeping Simmons it would have been a mess with Simmons having to move to first and I guess Hernandez moving to the outfield.?

                              But if he didnt bring in Porter and kept Simmons at his natural position. Would the Cards have been better from 82-85 (Simmons last full seasons)?

                              Comment

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