Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jackie Robinson Peak vs other 2nd basemen

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    Although he is still in his prime, Jose Altuve has had a peak extremely similar to Robinson's. The only major difference is that Robinson walked more.

    Robinson 1949-1954
    862 G 602 R 95 HR 522 RBI 122 SB 43 CS .327 .428 .505 145 OPS+

    Altuve 2014-2019
    887 G 564 R 114 HR 437 RBI 179 SB 47 CS .327 .380 .497 140 OPS+

    Robinson is slightly better, but again Altuve has actually played almost all his games at second base. I think I would put him ahead in this comparison.
    Robinson appears to have been a significantly better fielder. And again, of course, Robinson missed most/all of his prime.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
      The real question is that if racism can't be accounted for in WAR then did the racism really effect him?
      Being the first Black major leaguer of the 20th century brought upon a unique set of hurdles, stress, and barriers that made it harder for Robinson to perform on the baseball diamond. Robinson was not left alone to just ply his trade and play baseball at his highest level of his ability possible. Can you imagine a modern ballplayer having to put up with this kind of abuse? Unthinkable.



      Joe Morgan and Jackie have very similar numbers in their prime and their numbers from age 28-37 they are eerily similar. But could have Joe put up the same numbers if he had to put up with everything that Jackie did?





      Jackie Joe 1.jpg
      Joe Morgan: 53.6 WAR
      J. Robinson: 47.5 WAR


      ************************************************** *******

      Jackie Joe 2.jpg

      Joe Morgan: 63.7 WAR
      J. Robinson: 61.4 WAR
      Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-04-2019, 07:16 AM.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

        Being the first Black major leaguer of the 20th century brought upon a unique set of hurdles, stress, and barriers that made it harder for Robinson to perform on the baseball diamond. Robinson was not left alone to just ply his trade and play baseball at his highest level of his ability possible. Can you imagine a modern ballplayer having to put up with this kind of abuse? Unthinkable.



        Joe Morgan and Jackie have very similar numbers in their prime and their numbers from age 28-37 they are eerily similar. But could have Joe put up the same numbers if he had to put up with everything that Jackie did?





        Jackie Joe 1.jpg
        Joe Morgan: 53.6 WAR
        J. Robinson: 47.5 WAR


        ************************************************** *******

        Jackie Joe 2.jpg

        Joe Morgan: 63.7 WAR
        J. Robinson: 61.4 WAR
        Bluesky was obviously being facetious.
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

          Bluesky was obviously being facetious.
          You know me boo.
          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

            Being the first Black major leaguer of the 20th century brought upon a unique set of hurdles, stress, and barriers that made it harder for Robinson to perform on the baseball diamond. Robinson was not left alone to just ply his trade and play baseball at his highest level of his ability possible. Can you imagine a modern ballplayer having to put up with this kind of abuse? Unthinkable.



            Joe Morgan and Jackie have very similar numbers in their prime and their numbers from age 28-37 they are eerily similar. But could have Joe put up the same numbers if he had to put up with everything that Jackie did?





            Jackie Joe 1.jpg
            Joe Morgan: 53.6 WAR
            J. Robinson: 47.5 WAR


            ************************************************** *******

            Jackie Joe 2.jpg

            Joe Morgan: 63.7 WAR
            J. Robinson: 61.4 WAR
            Morgan is the closest comparison I could find, but as I have probably said before, Jackie Robinson transcends baseball. You can't really compare him to anyone.
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

            Comment


            • #21
              Robinson’s peak is very high-3 time war leadership and one second place in 4 years, plus the NL was deeper and only had 8 teams during his run.

              Not only did he have a late start and racism to deal with but he also had insulin dependent diabetes that destroyed nerves and vision and also resulted is wild blood sugar levels presumably during competition. Best bet is that he played with fast developing type 1 diabetes that could be managed very well today.

              Comment


              • #22
                I' m not sure I buy that Robinson was a better fielder than Altive. Alive is plenty good in the field..if Jackie was so great why was he moved around so much?
                Last edited by willshad; 11-04-2019, 11:58 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by willshad View Post
                  I' m not sure I buy that Robinson was a better fielder than Altive. Alive is plenty good in the field..if Jackie was so great why was he moved around so much?
                  Time for a history lesson. Rbinson played first base in 47, his rookie season. He had almost no experience at first but acquitted himself well there. He played first because the Dodgers still had Stanky at second, a well established veteran with a good defensive reputation. After the Dodgers traded Stanky Robinson moved to second, his natural position. He played it extremely well. Look at his BBRef defensive WAR numbers. Bill James has him rated as A+ at second base, one of only a figurative handful. By 1953 Jim Gilliam was more than ready to join the Dodgers. He was a second baseman, and a good one. Robinson was now 34, and slowing down just a bit, probably related to his undiagnosed diabetes. He moved to third, displacing Billy Cox, a fabled fielder. Robinson played third excellently, then also began to occasionally play some left field, where his defensive stats are also impressive. Robinson's ability to play multiple positions well to excellently gave Dodgers managers considerable flexibility, much like McDougald for Stengel.

                  In the 5 years Robinson played second base he created 8.2 dWAR. Altuve in his 9 year career has created a total of 1.7 dWAR.
                  Last edited by BigRon; 11-04-2019, 12:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

                    Time for a history lesson. Rbinson played first base in 47, his rookie season. He had almost no experience at first but acquitted himself well there. He played first because the Dodgers still had Stanky at second, a well established veteran with a good defensive reputation. After the Dodgers traded Stanky Robinson moved to second, his natural position. He played it extremely well. Look at his BBRef defensive WAR numbers. Bill James has him rated as A+ at second base, one of only a figurative handful. By 1953 Jim Gilliam was more than ready to join the Dodgers. He was a second baseman, and a good one. Robinson was now 34, and slowing down just a bit, probably related to his undiagnosed diabetes. He moved to third, displacing Billy Cox, a fabled fielder. Robinson played third excellently, then also began to occasionally play some left field, where his defensive stats are also impressive. Robinson's ability to play multiple positions well to excellently gave Dodgers managers considerable flexibility, much like McDougald for Stengel.

                    In the 5 years Robinson played second base he created 8.2 dWAR. Altuve in his 9 year career has created a total of 1.7 dWAR.
                    This is what Bill James wrote about Robinson's defense.


                    Jackie defense.jpg
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post

                      Where do you have him amongst 2b?
                      I don't rate players anymore so I don't have any rankings to share.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        Speaking of Eddie Collins he and Tom Yawkey had their historical markers and street name removed by John Henry. I'm assuming due to their alleged racism which is most famously exemplified by the mock tryout they gave Robinson and a couple other guys (Monte Irvin and Bus Clarkson?). Irvin and/or Robinson very well could have put the Red Sox in competition with the 1950's Yankees.
                        I think the other player to try out with the Red Sox along with Jackie was Sam Jethro.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                          I think the other player to try out with the Red Sox along with Jackie was Sam Jethro.
                          Marvin Williams and Sam Jethroe.

                          http://indiepro.com/glenn/tryout-and...d-the-red-sox/
                          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                          "Because as I learned in my years covering Frank McCourt: MLB owners do not see themselves as stewards of the national pastime. They see their teams as their property they can light on fire if they so choose." - Molly Knight

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            If I could drink Id hoist a pint to Jackie right now.
                            “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                            "I don't care if the guy is yellow or black, or if he has stripes like a ******* zebra. I'm the manager of this team and I say he [Robinson] plays." - Leo Durocher

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                              If I could drink Id hoist a pint to Jackie right now.
                              Not trying to be nosy, 1905, but you say you can't drink? Hope it's not a health issue. I'll host a pint for you- in fact, I'm drinking one now.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BigRon View Post

                                Not trying to be nosy, 1905, but you say you can't drink? Hope it's not a health issue. I'll host a pint for you- in fact, I'm drinking one now.
                                Thanks Bigron. Yeah alcohol and caffeine mess with my medication and can give me a stroke.
                                “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                                "I don't care if the guy is yellow or black, or if he has stripes like a ******* zebra. I'm the manager of this team and I say he [Robinson] plays." - Leo Durocher

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X