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Jackie Robinson Peak vs other 2nd basemen

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    It seems kind of strange the Robert Alomar's sublime fielding reputation is so at odds with the defensive metrics. Does anyone know why this is?
    No idea, but I think if we accept that Alomar was top notch defensvely, his peak matches up pretty well with Robinson.

    Defense is really the key here. Lots of second basemen are pretty close for their top 5 or 6 seasons offensively. How you rank them depends on how you measure their defense.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by willshad View Post

      In some cases, WAR isn't even in the ballpark, so to speak. Nobody in the world believes that Roberto Alomar was a mediocre fielding second baseman, or that Dave Winfield was a historically bad fielding right fielder. WAR certainly thinks so. WAR is way off base often enough that it should not really be any more than a very minor point for or against someone in any argument.
      I certainly don't and I don't know anybody who does. Vizquel's defense seems underrated by WAR too.

      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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      • #48
        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

        I certainly don't and I don't know anybody who does. Vizquel's defense seems underrated by WAR too.
        Vizquel stands out to me as one of the most overrated players of all.
        “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

        "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
          It seems kind of strange the Robert Alomar's sublime fielding reputation is so at odds with the defensive metrics. Does anyone know why this is?
          Not sure how the defensive metrics factor in all the elements of defense, but to look at one factor, Alomar's range factor at 2B wasn't very consistent over the course of his career. He certainly had a rough spot during what should have been his prime. His RF started off very good, but then it quickly dropped to well below average around his mid-20s. It picked up again for several seasons, but it seems he could not maintain high levels of RF for too long, as those numbered fell below league average as Alomar entered his 30s.
          BBF ranks his career 2B RF/9 at 75th all time at 4.97 (vs. a 5.06 lg avg). Alomar's 2B RF/G is 4.73 vs. 5.03 lg avg.

          Alomar Range Factor.jpg

          I know this isn't the entire picture of Alomar's defense. I really have no idea exactly how much range factor factors into the total picture. Is it half the story? A third? A quarter?
          Anyway, Alomar apparently had a defensive skill set that included range, but it just wasn't employed to it's full potential during his career.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            Robinson was LEGENDARY for his baserunning. He was literally compared to Ty Cobb is this regard. Many old timers ranted on and on how Robinson was the new Ty Cobb on the base paths. They called Robinson "Ty Cobb in Technicolor".


            Jackie 1.jpg


            Jackie 2.jpg
            Astute observation.

            Jackie played in 8 of the 10 worse seasons for base stealers. His career basically coincided with a "Dead Base" era. He doesn't have 200 MLB steals to his name, but no MLB player stole more bases in the years he played.

            The year Henderson stole 130, the average team stole 0.75 bases per game. Cobb's best year, 1.1.

            The average during Jackie's career was 0.3.

            Jackie wouldn't have been as prolific as Henderson on the bases in 1982, but multiply his best year by 2.5 and that's a projection of 92 or 93 steals. His projection playing when Cobb stole 96 would be 136. So there's reason to believe he was somewhere between Henderson and Cobb as a baserunner.

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