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Jackie Robinson Peak vs other 2nd basemen

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  • Unconventional
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Robinson was LEGENDARY for his baserunning. He was literally compared to Ty Cobb is this regard. Many old timers ranted on and on how Robinson was the new Ty Cobb on the base paths. They called Robinson "Ty Cobb in Technicolor".


    Jackie 1.jpg


    Jackie 2.jpg
    Astute observation.

    Jackie played in 8 of the 10 worse seasons for base stealers. His career basically coincided with a "Dead Base" era. He doesn't have 200 MLB steals to his name, but no MLB player stole more bases in the years he played.

    The year Henderson stole 130, the average team stole 0.75 bases per game. Cobb's best year, 1.1.

    The average during Jackie's career was 0.3.

    Jackie wouldn't have been as prolific as Henderson on the bases in 1982, but multiply his best year by 2.5 and that's a projection of 92 or 93 steals. His projection playing when Cobb stole 96 would be 136. So there's reason to believe he was somewhere between Henderson and Cobb as a baserunner.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    It seems kind of strange the Robert Alomar's sublime fielding reputation is so at odds with the defensive metrics. Does anyone know why this is?
    Not sure how the defensive metrics factor in all the elements of defense, but to look at one factor, Alomar's range factor at 2B wasn't very consistent over the course of his career. He certainly had a rough spot during what should have been his prime. His RF started off very good, but then it quickly dropped to well below average around his mid-20s. It picked up again for several seasons, but it seems he could not maintain high levels of RF for too long, as those numbered fell below league average as Alomar entered his 30s.
    BBF ranks his career 2B RF/9 at 75th all time at 4.97 (vs. a 5.06 lg avg). Alomar's 2B RF/G is 4.73 vs. 5.03 lg avg.

    Alomar Range Factor.jpg

    I know this isn't the entire picture of Alomar's defense. I really have no idea exactly how much range factor factors into the total picture. Is it half the story? A third? A quarter?
    Anyway, Alomar apparently had a defensive skill set that included range, but it just wasn't employed to it's full potential during his career.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1905 Giants
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    I certainly don't and I don't know anybody who does. Vizquel's defense seems underrated by WAR too.
    Vizquel stands out to me as one of the most overrated players of all.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post

    In some cases, WAR isn't even in the ballpark, so to speak. Nobody in the world believes that Roberto Alomar was a mediocre fielding second baseman, or that Dave Winfield was a historically bad fielding right fielder. WAR certainly thinks so. WAR is way off base often enough that it should not really be any more than a very minor point for or against someone in any argument.
    I certainly don't and I don't know anybody who does. Vizquel's defense seems underrated by WAR too.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    It seems kind of strange the Robert Alomar's sublime fielding reputation is so at odds with the defensive metrics. Does anyone know why this is?
    No idea, but I think if we accept that Alomar was top notch defensvely, his peak matches up pretty well with Robinson.

    Defense is really the key here. Lots of second basemen are pretty close for their top 5 or 6 seasons offensively. How you rank them depends on how you measure their defense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    It seems kind of strange the Robert Alomar's sublime fielding reputation is so at odds with the defensive metrics. Does anyone know why this is?

    Leave a comment:


  • layson27
    replied
    Baseball Prospectus has it:

    Sandberg- 93 FRAA
    Robinson- 51 FRAA (BPro has no fielding data before 1950)
    Alomar- 6.5 FRAA

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

    Who claimed he was better than Alomar or Sandberg with the glove?
    WAR certainly claims so.

    Rfield totals

    Sandberg: 60 in 2061 games
    Robinson: 81 in 1382 games
    Almoar: -32 in 2379 games
    Last edited by willshad; 11-06-2019, 11:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post

    I will accept that he was superior to Altuve with the glove, but no way am I buying that he was better than Alomar or Sandberg. I think the best he can hope for in those comparisons is being their equal.
    Who claimed he was better than Alomar or Sandberg with the glove?

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

    I agree that one should not "blindly" use defensive WAR numbers. But BB-Ref shows a big discrepancy between Robinson and Altuve, James shows Robinson as a superior defender. Read the attachment to HWR's post #24. What contrary evidence are you providing?
    I will accept that he was superior to Altuve with the glove, but no way am I buying that he was better than Alomar or Sandberg. I think the best he can hope for in those comparisons is being their equal.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    According to Bill James any given players WAR can typically fluctuate 20-25% either way (the percentage can be even higher) depending on whether or not the team under or over performs their Pythagorean W-L record and when they created their runs.
    In some cases, WAR isn't even in the ballpark, so to speak. Nobody in the world believes that Roberto Alomar was a mediocre fielding second baseman, or that Dave Winfield was a historically bad fielding right fielder. WAR certainly thinks so. WAR is way off base often enough that it should not really be any more than a very minor point for or against someone in any argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post

    This is an important thing to keep in mind. So many posters here- and maybe others- seem to think WAR is a precise measurement of player value. Joe Slobotnik had 7.3 WAR in 1963 while Harry Potatohead was at 7.1. There- that proves Slobotnik had a better season. WAR is a good, but less than precise measurement of performance and value.
    Yea not only is the replacement player not real but neither are the wins.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    According to Bill James any given players WAR can typically fluctuate 20-25% either way (the percentage can be even higher) depending on whether or not the team under or over performs their Pythagorean W-L record and when they created their runs.
    This is an important thing to keep in mind. So many posters here- and maybe others- seem to think WAR is a precise measurement of player value. Joe Slobotnik had 7.3 WAR in 1963 while Harry Potatohead was at 7.1. There- that proves Slobotnik had a better season. WAR is a good, but less than precise measurement of performance and value.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by layson27 View Post
    Another thing to consider is that BBRef could be shortchanging Robinson some baserunning value. They give him 35 Rbaser (incl. GIDP runs) while Sean Smith gives him 40, and at BBPro he has 57.5. We're talking around anywhere from about half a win he's due, up to over two wins. Not too big a deal but I just thought it should be noted.
    According to Bill James any given players WAR can typically fluctuate 20-25% either way (the percentage can be even higher) depending on whether or not the team under or over performs their Pythagorean W-L record and when they created their runs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Robinson was LEGENDARY for his baserunning. He was literally compared to Ty Cobb is this regard. Many old timers ranted on and on how Robinson was the new Ty Cobb on the base paths. They called Robinson "Ty Cobb in Technicolor".


    Jackie 1.jpg


    Jackie 2.jpg

    Leave a comment:

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