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  • #1

    Help Needed on Early Ballplayers

    Friends,

    I am undertaking an off-site project where I need to develop a fairly liberal definition of the greatest players (at each position) of the game's first half century or so. I'm looking for MLB players only (including the National Association) and the only firm cut-off is that the player must have retired before 1931.

    Please help me by suggesting names that belong on these lists. I'm sure I've missed a few, at the very least.

    Here's what I've got so far.

    Pitchers
    Babe Adams
    Pete Alexander
    Chief Bender
    Tommy Bond
    Mordecai Brown
    Charlie Buffinton
    Bob Caruthers
    John Clarkson
    Eddie Cicotte
    Wilbur Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Pud Galvin
    Clark Griffith
    Noodles Hahn
    Walter Johnson
    Addie Joss
    Tim Keefe
    Christy Mathewson
    Carl Mays
    Joe McGinnity
    Jim McCormick
    Tony Mullane
    Kid Nichols
    Eddie Plank
    Charley Radbourn
    Nap Rucker
    Amos Rusie
    Urban Shocker
    Al Spalding
    Rube Waddell
    Ed Walsh
    Mickey Welch
    Vic Willis
    Cy Young

    Catchers
    Charlie Bennett
    Roger Bresnahan
    Jack Clements
    Buck Ewing
    Johnny Kling
    Cal McVey
    Deacon White

    First Basemen
    Cap Anson
    Jake Beckley
    Dan Brouthers
    Frank Chance
    Roger Connor
    Jake Daubert
    Jack Fournier
    Ed Konetchy
    George Sisler
    Joe Start
    Fred Tenney

    Second Basemen
    Ross Barnes
    Cupid Childs
    Eddie Collins
    Larry Doyle
    Fred Dunlap
    Johnny Evers
    Nap Lajoie
    Bid McPhee
    Del Pratt
    Hardy Richardson

    Third Basemen
    Frank Baker
    Jimmy Collins
    Lave Cross
    Larry Gardner
    Heinie Groh
    Bill Joyce
    Denny Lyons
    John McGraw
    Billy Nash
    Ezra Sutton
    Ned Williamson

    Shortstops
    Dave Bancroft
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Art Fletcher
    Jack Glasscock
    Hughie Jennings
    Herman Long
    Joe Tinker
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    John Ward
    George Wright

    Left Fielders
    Jesse Burkett
    Fred Clarke
    Ed Delahanty
    Charley Jones
    Joe Kelley
    Sherry Magee
    Jim O’Rourke
    Jimmy Sheckard
    Harry Stovey
    Bobby Veach
    Zack Wheat

    Center Fielders
    Pete Browning
    Max Carey
    Ty Cobb
    Hugh Duffy
    George Gore
    Billy Hamilton
    Paul Hines
    Tommy Leach
    Jimmy Ryan
    Tris Speaker
    George Van Haltren

    Right Fielders
    Gavvy Cravath
    Sam Crawford
    Elmer Flick
    Harry Hooper
    Joe Jackson
    Willie Keeler
    King Kelly
    Sam Thompson
    Mike Tiernan
    Ross Youngs

    Much appreciated.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Is this advanced stats based only, or will contemporary opinion be weighed in as well?

    Comment

    • #3
      That's a pretty comprehensive list. I always link Hippo Vaughn in my mind with Wilbur Cooper as one of the top NL pitchers of the teens. If you like peak, maybe Dave Orr or Silver King could fit in.

      Comment

      • #4
        Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
        That's a pretty comprehensive list. I always link Hippo Vaughn in my mind with Wilbur Cooper as one of the top NL pitchers of the teens. If you like peak, maybe Dave Orr or Silver King could fit in.
        These are good additions. I would mention Levi Meyerle, Lip Pike, Mike Donlin, and Fred Carroll.
        Are Mike Grady and Danny Murphy "great" enough to make the list?
        Last edited by dgarza; 11-06-2019, 10:08 AM.

        Comment

        • #5
          Depending on how liberal you want to get and which leagues you are considering, a bunch of other names to consider:
          Harry Davis
          Henry Larkin
          John Reilly
          Bill Bradley
          Ed McKean
          Cy Williams
          Ginger Beaumont
          Mike Smith
          Benny Kauff
          George Stone
          Cy Seymour
          George Hall
          Ed Reulbach
          Tom York
          Ed Swartwood
          Tip O'Neill
          Abner Dalrymple
          Jim Devlin
          Ken Williams
          Socks Seybold
          John O'Rourke
          Emil Gross
          Duke Kenworthy
          Doc White
          Joe Wood
          ...there are probably a few other pitchers to consider as well.
          Last edited by dgarza; 11-06-2019, 11:45 AM.

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by layson27 View Post
            Is this advanced stats based only, or will contemporary opinion be weighed in as well?
            Everything is on the table.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment

            • #7
              Hal Chase by reputation then....

              Is someone like George Mullin too obscure? He won 20 games five times.
              Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 11-06-2019, 11:23 AM.
              The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

              Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

              Comment

              • #8
                Some others to consider for a Big Hall of Fame type of project:

                Ted Breitenstein
                George J. Burns
                Mike Griffin
                Fielder Jones
                Dickey Pearce
                Roger Peckinpaugh
                Jack Powell
                Jack Rowe
                Ray Schalk - integral member of the "clean" 1919 Black Sox
                Kip Selbach
                Bob Shawkey
                Mike (Elmer) Smith
                Roy Thomas
                Buck Weaver - integral member of the "dirty" 1919 Black Sox
                Jim Whitney
                Last edited by Jar of Flies; 11-06-2019, 12:09 PM.
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                Comment

                • #9
                  P
                  Jack Chesbro

                  C
                  Jimmy Archer
                  Lou Criger

                  1B
                  Charles Comiskey

                  2B
                  Fred Pfeffer
                  Davy Force

                  3B
                  Art Devlin
                  Jerry Denny
                  Tommy Leach

                  SS
                  Germany Smith

                  LF
                  George Burns

                  CF
                  Bill Lange
                  Curt Welch

                  RF
                  Tommy McCarthy
                  Jim Fogarty
                  Last edited by layson27; 11-06-2019, 03:30 PM.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Pennock played until 1934 so a DQ, he was an add I checked into also, maybe shouldn't be a HOF, but he's probably better than generally given credit for.
                    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                      Pennock played until 1934 so a DQ, he was an add I checked into also, maybe shouldn't be a HOF, but he's probably better than generally given credit for.
                      Oops. I included him due to several baseball men putting him on their All-Time team.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        P- Sadie McMahon
                        “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                        "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                          Friends,

                          I am undertaking an off-site project where I need to develop a fairly liberal definition of the greatest players (at each position) of the game's first half century or so. I'm looking for MLB players only (including the National Association) and the only firm cut-off is that the player must have retired before 1931.

                          Please help me by suggesting names that belong on these lists. I'm sure I've missed a few, at the very least.

                          Here's what I've got so far.

                          Pitchers
                          Babe Adams
                          Pete Alexander
                          Chief Bender
                          Tommy Bond
                          Mordecai Brown
                          Charlie Buffinton
                          Bob Caruthers
                          John Clarkson
                          Eddie Cicotte
                          Wilbur Cooper
                          Stan Coveleski
                          Pud Galvin
                          Clark Griffith
                          Noodles Hahn
                          Walter Johnson
                          Addie Joss
                          Tim Keefe
                          Christy Mathewson
                          Carl Mays
                          Joe McGinnity
                          Jim McCormick
                          Tony Mullane
                          Kid Nichols
                          Eddie Plank
                          Charley Radbourn
                          Nap Rucker
                          Amos Rusie
                          Urban Shocker
                          Al Spalding
                          Rube Waddell
                          Ed Walsh
                          Mickey Welch
                          Vic Willis
                          Cy Young

                          Catchers
                          Charlie Bennett
                          Roger Bresnahan
                          Jack Clements
                          Buck Ewing
                          Johnny Kling
                          Cal McVey
                          Deacon White

                          First Basemen
                          Cap Anson
                          Jake Beckley
                          Dan Brouthers
                          Frank Chance
                          Roger Connor
                          Jake Daubert
                          Jack Fournier
                          Ed Konetchy
                          George Sisler
                          Joe Start
                          Fred Tenney

                          Second Basemen
                          Ross Barnes
                          Cupid Childs
                          Eddie Collins
                          Larry Doyle
                          Fred Dunlap
                          Johnny Evers
                          Nap Lajoie
                          Bid McPhee
                          Del Pratt
                          Hardy Richardson

                          Third Basemen
                          Frank Baker
                          Jimmy Collins
                          Lave Cross
                          Larry Gardner
                          Heinie Groh
                          Bill Joyce
                          Denny Lyons
                          John McGraw
                          Billy Nash
                          Ezra Sutton
                          Ned Williamson

                          Shortstops
                          Dave Bancroft
                          Bill Dahlen
                          George Davis
                          Art Fletcher
                          Jack Glasscock
                          Hughie Jennings
                          Herman Long
                          Joe Tinker
                          Honus Wagner
                          Bobby Wallace
                          John Ward
                          George Wright

                          Left Fielders
                          Jesse Burkett
                          Fred Clarke
                          Ed Delahanty
                          Charley Jones
                          Joe Kelley
                          Sherry Magee
                          Jim O’Rourke
                          Jimmy Sheckard
                          Harry Stovey
                          Bobby Veach
                          Zack Wheat

                          Center Fielders
                          Pete Browning
                          Max Carey
                          Ty Cobb
                          Hugh Duffy
                          George Gore
                          Billy Hamilton
                          Paul Hines
                          Tommy Leach
                          Jimmy Ryan
                          Tris Speaker
                          George Van Haltren

                          Right Fielders
                          Gavvy Cravath
                          Sam Crawford
                          Elmer Flick
                          Harry Hooper
                          Joe Jackson
                          Willie Keeler
                          King Kelly
                          Sam Thompson
                          Mike Tiernan
                          Ross Youngs

                          Much appreciated.
                          Just curious, making an observation. “Fairly liberal definition” of greatest ball players would seem to be at odds with “MLB only.”
                          Last edited by Unconventional; 11-13-2019, 10:27 AM.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            The first round polls in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates project are a good place to check for names.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Deacon Phillippe had an oft forgotten great peak. There are a bunch of black guys unless you aren't including them.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment

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