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  • Updated PARC-D and methodology

    So here is what I am doing in one summary:

    Position players:

    Career WAR + WAA + WA3 (WAA over 3 WAA) + Clutch x1 (1/2 for regression + 1/2 for affect on WAA) + postseason WPA (x2 for WC and LDS, x3 for LCS, x5 for WS)

    Adjustments:
    Positional Player adjustment to align with pitchers (+6 PARC-D)
    Regression-based adjustment (1/2 * (WAR+WAA+WA3)) for strike-seasons based on surrounding seasons WAR totals and age/natural regression
    Regression-based adjustment (2/3 * (WAR + WAA + WA3) for military service and NegLg time (players with at least 1/2 MLB seasons) based on surrounding WAR totals and age/natural regression
    Defensive adjustment for DRA for all seasons prior to 2002 (about 80/20 TZ/DRA)
    Defensive adjustment for UZR for all seasons after 2001 (about 80/20 DRS/UZR)
    1/2 Eric and Miller OF arm-adjustments (where available) for 1920's and 1930's players
    Baserunning adjustments: 1/2 BBref 1/2 Baseball Projections prior to 1920 and 1/2 BB Ref 1/2 BBPro for 1921-1949
    1/2 rrOPS+ park effect adjustment (using Sultan's value when provided at BBF and estimated when not). My estimation might cause a small handful of guys here to be off by several WAR.
    1/2 catcher framing from 1998 to 2019 (FG from 2008-2019 and BBPro from 1988-2007)
    Framing extrapolation (still 1/2 credit) for players whose careers span both pre-framing and BBPro's data
    Estimates of catcher framing and game-calling value from pre-framing WOWY data.
    Catcher defensive estimates based on defensive reputations and strengths of other defensive numbers for players prior to 1970. This is likely the biggest estimation uncertainty of any adjustment.
    Catcher positional adjustment to align with other positions: Up to 25% of Parc-D (not including positional player adjustment) depending on the amount of playing time at catcher.

    Pitchers:

    Career WAR + WAA + WA3 (WAA over 3 WAA) + Clutch x1 (1/2 for regression + 1/2 for affect on WAA) + postseason WPA (x2 for WC and LDS, x3 for LCS, x5 for WS) Pitcher offensive included for all accept postseason batting

    Adjustments:
    Regression-based adjustment (1/2 * (WAR+WAA+WA3)) for strike-seasons based on surrounding season WAR totals and age/natural regression
    Regression-based adjustment (2/3 * (WAR + WAA - WA3) for military service and NegLg time (players with at least 1/2 MLB seasons) based on surrounding WAR total and age/natural regression
    Defensive adjustment for DRA for all seasons prior to 2002 (about 80/20 TZ/DRA)
    1/4 rrERA+ park-effect adjustment: I am using brett's method. I also cap-out negative value at -8 PARC-D.
    Pitchers from framing-data era receive a framing credit/debit (the same 1/2 given to catchers) based on the estimated run value gained/cost by catchers. This adjustment is usually around 1-5 PARC-D.
    19th Century pitchers receive a deduction for replacement accumulation. 25% for 70's, 20% for 80's, and 15% for 90's. Split values for players splitting decades.
    FIP adjustment based on eras and difficulty/prevalence of beating peripherals. Even the best pitchers with the largest sample sizes get lucky/unlucky to some degree.
    Relievers PARC-D is adjusted to be on the same scale as starters based on innings-pitched as a reliever. This adjustment only applies to relief pitchers (250+ innings) from the "closer" era (WW2 on).

    Notes:

    10% discount on all WAR+WAA+WA3 for 1943-1945 (all players) seasons and 5% credit for WAR+WAA+WA3 for 1950-1959 and 1980-1989 seasons (pitchers).
    Playing-time adjustments for 19-century position players are NOT made outside of WW2.
    I am NOT using Cuban, Mexican, or Japanese league data estimations at this point.
    I am NOT doing any adjustments for PED usage.
    Thousands of calculations have been made. Calculator mistakes and rounding errors are happening from time-to-time. I change the data accordingly.
    Anything can be changed or adjusted at anytime. Never be surprised if you see the orders changing. The experts here keep making good suggestions. I would always say "as of now" a certain player has "x PARC-D".
    The TZ/DRA split for pitchers is 80/20 instead of 70/20 because of the lack of info on WAR's overall creation on BBGs site. Less certainly in the metric = less weight in my system.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 05-24-2020, 03:13 PM.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  • #2
    Rank Name PARC-D
    1 Babe Ruth 394
    2 Barry Bonds 346
    3 Willie Mays 338
    4 Ted Williams 323
    5 Ty Cobb 321
    6 Hank Aaron 284
    7 Tris Speaker 279
    8 Rogers Hornsby 275
    9 Honus Wagner 271
    10 Stan Musial 264
    11 Lou Gerhig 246
    12 Eddie Collins 244
    13 Mickey Mantle 231
    14 Alex Rodriguez 228
    15 Rickey Henderson 223
    16 Mike Schmidt 217
    17 Mel Ott 208
    18 Nap Lajoie 207
    19 Albert Pujols 202
    20 Joe DiMaggio 202
    21 Joe Morgan 188
    22 Jimmie Foxx 188
    23 Eddie Mathews 187
    24 Roberto Clemente 187
    25 Johnny Bench 183
    26 Frank Robinson 179
    27 Cal Ripken Jr. 176
    28 George Brett 168
    29 Al Kaline 167
    30 Gary Carter 165
    31 Johnny Mize 165
    32 Cap Anson 164
    33 Mike Trout 163
    34 Adrian Beltre 160
    35 Carl Yastrzemski 157
    36 Wade Boggs 157
    37 Roger Connor 157
    38 Dan Brouthers 157
    39 Luke Appling 156
    40 Rod Carew 154
    41 Charlie Gerhinger 153
    42 Jeff Bagwell 149
    43 George Davis 149
    44 Mike Piazza 147
    45 Arky Vaughan 146
    46 Yogi Berra 146
    47 Chipper Jones 144
    48 Ken Griffey Jr. 142
    49 Pee Wee Reese 142
    50 Jackie Robinson 142
    51 Carlton Fisk 141
    52 Joe Gordon 139
    53 Pete Rose 137
    54 Ed Delahanty 137
    55 Bill Dickey 137
    56 Frankie Frisch 136
    57 Robin Yount 135
    58 Barry Larkin 135
    59 Hank Greenebrg 134
    60 Bill Dahlen 132
    61 Lou Whitaker 132
    62 Paul Waner 132
    63 Bobby Grich 132
    64 Ozzie Smith 131
    65 Larry Walker 131
    66 Lou Boudreau 131
    67 Bobby Wallace 131
    68 Brooks Robinson 130
    69 Joe Jackson 130
    70 Reggie Jackson 129
    71 Alan Trammel 129
    72 Miguel Cabrera 129
    73 Tony Gwynn 128
    74 Harry Heilmann 128
    75 Scott Rolen 127
    76 Carlos Beltran 125
    77 Joe Mauer 125
    78 Goose Goslin 124
    79 Fred Clarke 124
    80 Tim Raines 124
    81 Gabby Hartnett 124
    82 Billy Hamilton 123
    83 Paul Molitor 123
    84 Al Simmons 123
    85 Chase Utley 123
    86 Buster Posey 123
    87 Joey Votto 122
    88 Buck Ewing 122
    89 Edgar Martinez 121
    90 Ivan Rodriguez 121
    91 Frank Baker 121
    92 Frank Thomas 120
    93 Kenny Lofton 120
    94 Yadier Molina 120
    95 Russell Martin 119
    96 Jack Glasscock 118
    97 Bill Terry 118
    98 Derek Jeter 117
    99 Ryne Sandberg 117
    100 Roberto Alomar 117
    101 Keith Hernandez 117
    102 Manny Ramirez 116
    103 Robinson Cano 116
    104 Willie McCovey 116
    105 Roy Campanlla 116
    106 Mickey Cochrane 115
    107 Duke Snider 114
    108 Andruw Jones 114
    109 Ernie Banks 113
    110 Sam Crawford 113
    111 Jim Thome 112
    112 Rafael Palmiero 112
    113 Joe Cronin 112
    114 Jim Edmonds 112
    115 Eddie Murray 111
    116 Ron Santo 111
    117 George Sisler 111
    118 George Keller 111
    119 Willie Randolph 110
    120 Ken Boyer 110
    121 Dwight Evans 109
    122 Buddy Bell 109
    123 Richie Ashburn 109
    124 Reggie Smith 109
    125 Thurmon Munson 109
    126 Wally Schang 109
    127 Todd Helton 108
    128 Willie Davis 108
    129 Enos Slaughter 108
    130 Ichiro Suzuki 108
    131 Jesse Burkett 107
    132 Billy Williams 107
    133 Darrell Evans 107
    134 Craig Biggio 106
    145 John Olerud 104
    146 Joe Tinker 104
    137 Jim Sundberg 104
    138 Andre Dawson 103
    139 Will Clark 103
    140 Joe Torre 103
    141 Minnie Minnoso 103
    142 Larry Doby 103
    143 Bobby Bonds 102
    144 Billy Herman 102
    145 Dick Allen 101
    146 Ted Simmons 101
    147 Dave Winfield 100
    148 Mark McGwire 100
    149 Lance Berkman 100
    150 Sal Bando 99
    151 Vlad Guerrero 99
    152 Jim Wynn 99
    153 Elmer Flick 99
    154 Charlie Bennett 99
    155 Sherry Magee 98
    156 Jose Cruz Jr. 98
    157 Bill Freehan 98
    158 John Ward 97
    159 Jake Beckely 97
    160 Max Carey 97
    161 Harry Hooper 97
    162 Bobby Abreu 96
    163 Zack Wheat 96
    164 Harmon Killebrew 95
    165 Gary Sheffield 94
    166 Graig Nettles 94
    167 Jimmy Collins 94
    168 Brian McCann 94
    169 Evan Longoria 93
    170 Cesar Cedeno 93
    171 Willie Keeler 91
    172 Bert Campernaris 91
    173 David Wright 91
    174 Bernie Williams 91
    175 Bid McPhee 91
    176 Ralph Kiner 91
    177 Wille Stargell 90
    178 Sammy Sosa 89
    179 Bob Johnson 89
    180 Tony Phillips 89
    181 Jimmie Sheckard 89
    182 Roy White 89
    183 Jeff Kent 88
    184 Ron Cey 88
    185 Dustin Pedroia 88
    186 Joe Kelley 88
    187 Bobby Doerr 88
    188 Bobby Veach 88
    189 Art Fletcher 88
    190 King Kelly 88
    191 Frank Chance 88
    192 Lance Parrish 88
    193 Chet Lemon 87
    194 David Ortiz 87
    195 Joe Sewell 87
    196 Kirby Puckett 87
    197 Jason Giambi 87
    198 Dave Bancroft 87
    199 Josh Donaldson 87
    200 Mookie Betts 87
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 12-07-2019, 07:26 AM.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

    Comment


    • #3
      Rank Name Parc-d
      1 Walter Johnson 330
      2 Cy Young 318
      3 Roger Clemens 298
      4 Pete Alexander 231
      5 Kid Nichols 227
      6 Lefty Grove 225
      7 Tom Seaver 218
      8 Christy Mathewson 212
      9 Randy Johnson 204
      10 Greg Maddux 199
      11 Warren Spahn 185
      12 Bob Gibson 179
      13 Pedro Martinez 168
      14 Phil Niekro 162
      15 Eddie Plank 160
      16 Tim Keefe 160
      17 John Clarkson 157
      18 Curt Schilling 157
      19 Bert Blyleven 155
      20 Steve Carlton 154
      21 Mike Mussina 152
      22 Bob Feller 150
      23 Fergie Jenkins 145
      24 Tom Glavine 145
      25 Robin Roberts 140
      26 Jim McCormick 139
      27 Old Hoss Radbourn 138
      28 Gaylord Perry 136
      29 Zack Greinke 136
      30 Justin Verlander 129
      31 Clayton Kershaw 129
      32 Max Scherzer 129
      33 Mariano Rivera 129
      34 Bob Caruthers 127
      35 Carl Hubbell 126
      36 Jim Palmer 124
      37 Ed Walsh 123
      38 Roy Halladay 122
      39 Hal Newhouser 122
      40 Tommy Bond 122
      41 John Smoltz 121
      42 Al Spalding 120
      43 Amos Rusie 118
      44 Charlie Buffinton 118
      45 Tony Mullane 117
      46 Rick Reuschel 116
      47 Ted Lyons 116
      48 David Cone 116
      49 Pud Galvin 114
      50 Luis Tiant 114
      51 Cole Hamels 113
      52 Wes Ferrell 112
      53 Nolan Ryan 110
      54 Juan Marichal 110
      55 Stan Coveleski 109
      56 Vic Willis 107
      57 Red Ruffing 106
      58 Kevin Brown 106
      59 Clark Griffith 106
      60 Whitey Ford 106
      61 Bret Saberhagen 106
      62 Andy Pettitte 105
      63 Jim Bunning 104
      64 Mordecai Brown 104
      65 Dazzy Vance 103
      66 Rube Waddell 103
      67 Joe McGinnity 103
      68 Urban Shocker 103
      69 Silver King 103
      70 CC Sabathia 102
      71 Dennis Eckersley 101
      72 Dave Stieb 101
      73 Eddie Cicotte 100
      74 Don Drysdale 98
      75 Red Faber 98
      76 Kevin Appier 97
      77 Jim Whitney 96
      78 Johan Santana 96
      79 George Uhle 94
      80 Mickey Welch 93
      81 Babe Adams 93
      82 Tommy John 92
      83 Chris Sale 91
      84 Sandy Koufax 91
      85 Tim Hudson 90
      86 Bucky Walters 90
      87 Orel Hershiser 90
      88 Bob Lemon 89
      89 Dizzy Trout 89
      90 Chuck Finley 88
      91 Jon Lester 88
      92 Jimmy Key 88
      93 Dwight Gooden 87
      94 Tommy Bridges 87
      95 Mark Buehrle 86
      96 Bobby Mathews 86
      97 Felix Hernandez 86
      98 Roy Oswalt 86
      99 Eddie Rommell 86
      100 Nap Rucker 86
      Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 11-24-2019, 09:13 PM.
      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

      Comment


      • #4
        There is a LOT going-on here. Other than the HUGE impact on catchers, the difficulty of calculation might make it not worth it compared to just plain ole WAR or WAA, etc. Perfect is often the enemy of good.

        I am 1000000000% sure this is producing better results than any of the versions of WAR or WAA or WARP or what-ave-you. I am also 1000000% sure the results are better than people just using narrative or the eye test or looking at garbage like BBWAA voting or something in isolation.

        But if the time and effort is worth the smallish differences (in most cases) from what WAR/WAA/JAWS is already doing is the big question. I guess it is at least doing what nothing else is doing for catchers and service-time and clutch.
        Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 11-24-2019, 02:35 PM.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

        Comment


        • #5
          Good stuff. The only thing I can think of adding is Clay Davenport's FRAA for the pre-1950 outfielders. It would be a pain though as all he has are those individual player cards, with no charts available like the other sites have.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes. The inaccessibility of BPro data leads me to keep most of it out of my own calculations though I still look at it in specific cases from time-to-time. I wish they would update the player cards with more historical data and put the data in sortable tables in their stats pages.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

              I am 1000000000% sure this is producing better results than any of the versions of WAR or WAA or WARP or what-ave-you. I am also 1000000% sure the results are better than people just using narrative or the eye test or looking at garbage like BBWAA voting or something in isolation.
              I looked at these correlations, using just the top 50, and eliminating Gibson, Charleston and Lloyd, who don't appear on your PARC-D:

              A: Current ranking, based on poll of forum members
              B: PARC-D
              C: fWAR

              A vs. B: 0.859
              A vs. C: 0.596
              B vs. C: 0.733

              The correlation of PARC-D with our forum poll is really good, excepting the three players I mentioned and removed. The most notable differences are R. Jackson, who was 46th (after removing the above-named players) in the forum poll, but 70th in PARC-D; J. Robinson, 28th vs. 50th; Griffey, 26th vs. 48th; and Piazza, 27th vs. 44th.

              One would expect a lower correlation with WAR, since the latter does not take into account service time, and other factors out of a player's control that might reduce playing time. J. Robinson is the best example; he was 28th in the forum poll (with Gibson and Charleston removed); 50th in PARC-D; 133rd in fWAR).

              The correlation also confirms that catchers get short shrift by WAR, something I have discussed at length in another thread. All the catchers did worse by fWAR than by the other two rankings, with Piazza and Berra ranked particularly low in fWAR (95th and 96th, respectively). Bench is highest ranked catcher by fWAR, at 42d, and the other two rankings put him 24th and 25th. Carter is 62d, and he ranks 45th and 30th, respectively.
              Last edited by Stolensingle; 11-24-2019, 05:19 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by layson27 View Post
                Good stuff. The only thing I can think of adding is Clay Davenport's FRAA for the pre-1950 outfielders. It would be a pain though as all he has are those individual player cards, with no charts available like the other sites have.
                I think TZ and DRA are both a lot better. I don't feel introducing less accurate data will improve the results anyway just because there is more data.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                  I think TZ and DRA are both a lot better. I don't feel introducing less accurate data will improve the results anyway just because there is more data.
                  But we know Outfielder Total Zone before 1950 is regressed, maybe heavily. It's why Speaker, Hooper, & Clarke,don't crack 100 Rfield . I haven't been using Davenport's FRAA for very long but I'd say it's pretty comparable to DRA. Regardless, until BBRef does an update I'll continue to have little confidence in their OF TZ before 1950.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Russell Martin at #94. Wow!
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by layson27 View Post

                      But we know Outfielder Total Zone before 1950 is regressed, maybe heavily. It's why Speaker, Hooper, & Clarke,don't crack 100 Rfield . I haven't been using Davenport's FRAA for very long but I'd say it's pretty comparable to DRA. Regardless, until BBRef does an update I'll continue to have little confidence in their OF TZ before 1950.
                      Right. DRA probably takes care of that adjustment anyway. And TZ 's OF defensive metrics deserve all the skeptisism they can get.

                      I am even more skeptical of DRA and FRAAs claim that dozens upon dozens of players were all well over 100 runs better than average defensively. That does not match with what UZR and DRS showed and I don't think that is what statcast is finding either. Even adjusting for amount of BIP and quality of gloves,.etc. Then you have Thress who says defense is way less important than TZ.

                      Thress and James (DWS) vs. unregressed FRAA or DRA aren't even talking about the same ballplayers the defensive results are so different. TZ/UZR/DRS are the most middle ground in that regard, and I feel deserve the biggest weight.

                      I already concede DRAs value by including it 30% in defensive value. I think adding FRAA would be guilding the lily. Adding Thress or DWS would just counteract what DRA just accomplished by pulling the other direction.
                      Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 11-24-2019, 08:59 PM.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                        Russell Martin at #94. Wow!
                        This was discussed at much length on a catcher thread recently.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                          Right. DRA probably takes care of that adjustment anyway. And TZ 's OF defensive metrics deserve all the skeptisism they can get.

                          I am even more skeptical of DRA and FRAAs claim that dozens upon dozens of players were all well over 100 runs better than average defensively. That does not match with what UZR and DRS showed and I don't think that is what statcast is finding either. Even adjusting for amount of BIP and quality of gloves,.etc. Then you have Thress who says defense is way less important than TZ.

                          Thress and James (DWS) vs. unregressed FRAA or DRA aren't even talking about the same ballplayers the defensive results are so different. TZ/UZR/DRS are the most middle ground in that regard, and I feel deserve the biggest weight.

                          I already concede DRAs value by including it 30% in defensive value. I think adding FRAA would be guilding the lily. Adding Thress or DWS would just counteract what DRA just accomplished by pulling the other direction.
                          Good points. This is why I chose to use TZ (along with DRA, FRAA, & sometimes Thress) when figuring adjusted War for Clarke, Waner, Crawford, etc...

                          BBRef & BPro updates would really help things.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by layson27 View Post

                            Good points. This is why I chose to use TZ (along with DRA, FRAA, & sometimes Thress) when figuring adjusted War for Clarke, Waner, Crawford, etc...

                            BBRef & BPro updates would really help things.
                            Unfortunately this right here is why so many people will never get on board with these metrics. So much of the anti-WAR crowd is just spouting nonsense about things that are not actually an issue. But the powers-that-be HAVE to come up with SOMEWHAT of a general consensus. The difference between James and Thress and DRA might be 300 runs or 30 WAR. That is inexcusable.
                            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How do the historic proportional numbers for WA3 (WAA over 3 WAA) look in your opinion? I'm specifically thinking about for pitchers, comparing the old 1800's guys versus new guys. If there were a lot more in one era or another, would that affect your results?

                              For example, if X% in the 1800's met this requirement, 0.50X% met it in the 1960's and 0.25X% in the 2000's, would that be the best for your system? Or vice versa? Or would you system work best if it is set at some percentage over (95%, etc.) the standard league level.

                              Rereading my words, that seems confusing, but I hope you know what I mean.
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