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  • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    I'm as big a fan of the Negro Leagues as the next guy, but the idea that the greatest catcher, 2nd greatest center fielder and 2nd greatest pitcher in the history of baseball all played during the Great Depression and outside the Major Leagues to boot.

    I certainly have Gibson as 1 or 2 all-time and Charleston in the top 3-5 at his position (and Paige in the top 10 pitchers), but this has to be the biggest homerism I've ever seen towards the Negro Leagues in any ranking. Perhaps Poz's personal relationship with Buck O'Neil, or his tenure working in Kansas City when the Negro Leagues Museum was being created, are to blame? I'd certainly like to hear him make the case that Charleston > Cobb or that Paige is greater than every pitcher who ever lived except the Big Train. It's just a bit much for me.
    Yeah. As much as he says his rankings aren't really 'rankings' per se, one can't help but think he is making a statement by placing Charleston above Cobb, Gibson as number one catcher, and Paige as the second best pitcher.

    Putting Aaron above Cobb is equally ridiculous.
    Last edited by willshad; 03-27-2020, 06:38 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by willshad View Post



      Putting Aaron above Cobb is equally ridiculous.
      I have Cobb ranked slightly higher than Aaron but there is nothing "ridiculous" about ranking Aaron higher. It can be justified very easily.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

        I have Cobb ranked slightly higher than Aaron but there is nothing "ridiculous" about ranking Aaron higher. It can be justified very easily.
        How? Cobb was a better hitter by a fairly significant margin, much better on the bases, and played a more valuable position.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by willshad View Post

          How? Cobb was a better hitter by a fairly significant margin, much better on the bases, and played a more valuable position.
          Aaron played in stronger leagues, was a better RF than Cobb was a CF, Cobb wasn't THAT much better of a hitter. retrosheet data from age 31 on for Cobb vs Aaron age 31 indicate Hank as more valuable on the bases. It's close and not a no-brainer.
          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
            I'm as big a fan of the Negro Leagues as the next guy, but the idea that the greatest catcher, 2nd greatest center fielder and 2nd greatest pitcher in the history of baseball all played during the Great Depression and outside the Major Leagues to boot.

            I certainly have Gibson as 1 or 2 all-time and Charleston in the top 3-5 at his position (and Paige in the top 10 pitchers), but this has to be the biggest homerism I've ever seen towards the Negro Leagues in any ranking. Perhaps Poz's personal relationship with Buck O'Neil, or his tenure working in Kansas City when the Negro Leagues Museum was being created, are to blame? I'd certainly like to hear him make the case that Charleston > Cobb or that Paige is greater than every pitcher who ever lived except the Big Train. It's just a bit much for me.
            Charleston didn't age well ala Griffey, while his peak was likely amazing, he isn't in the upper upper crust of candidates for me. Gibson and Paige have pretty good arguments/don't seem too out of line here.
            Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
            http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

            Comment


            • Updating Chadwick's board again:

              The final 7
              P - Walter Johnson
              LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams
              CF - Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays
              RF - Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                Updating Chadwick's board again:

                The final 7
                P - Walter Johnson
                LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams
                CF - Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays
                RF - Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth
                My own guess is that we'll see Aaron, Charleston and Johnson revealed this coming week (in whatever order) and that the final four will be some combination of Bonds, Mays, Ruth and Williams.

                If that is, indeed, the case, then I think it further highlights that Cobb's ranking is obviously too low.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                  I'm as big a fan of the Negro Leagues as the next guy, but the idea that the greatest catcher, 2nd greatest center fielder and 2nd greatest pitcher in the history of baseball all played during the Great Depression and outside the Major Leagues to boot.

                  I certainly have Gibson as 1 or 2 all-time and Charleston in the top 3-5 at his position (and Paige in the top 10 pitchers), but this has to be the biggest homerism I've ever seen towards the Negro Leagues in any ranking. Perhaps Poz's personal relationship with Buck O'Neil, or his tenure working in Kansas City when the Negro Leagues Museum was being created, are to blame? I'd certainly like to hear him make the case that Charleston > Cobb or that Paige is greater than every pitcher who ever lived except the Big Train. It's just a bit much for me.
                  Bourgeois white liberals have practically made a sport out of aligning themselves with black folks on frivolous issues from which they can easily distance themselves. That's what this looks like to me. Social justice posturing. By placing Negro Leaguer's high and ignoring Cap Anson Posnanski has all the social justice capital to gain and no risk on the back end.

                  Originally posted by willshad View Post

                  Yeah. As much as he says his rankings aren't really 'rankings' per se, one can't help but think he is making a statement by placing Charleston above Cobb, Gibson as number one catcher, and Paige as the second best pitcher.

                  Putting Aaron above Cobb is equally ridiculous.
                  Agreed

                  Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                  Charleston didn't age well ala Griffey, while his peak was likely amazing, he isn't in the upper upper crust of candidates for me. Gibson and Paige have pretty good arguments/don't seem too out of line here.
                  I thought Charleston moved to first base around 30 and continued to rake until his early 40's? He was also a really good manager. This is all from memory so...
                  Last edited by bluesky5; 03-28-2020, 12:06 PM.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                    Bourgeois white liberals have practically made a sport out of aligning themselves with black folks on frivolous issues from which they can easily distance themselves. That's what this looks like to me. Social justice posturing. By placing Negro Leaguer's high and ignoring Cap Anson Posnanski has all the social justice capital to gain and no risk on the back end.
                    While that zeitgeist may play an indirect role, Poz isn't an SJW and I've never known him to have an agenda. Perhaps Cobb's racism played a role in Poz knocking him down a couple of spots, but it's not as though he's excluded Cobb from the top 20, for example. By contrast, he's not refusing to even rank Cobb as some choose to do with alleged PED users. Are those people SJWs too? I simply think it's too much extra credit on Poz's end and I suspect it's largely due to his personal experience and investment in Buck O'Neil and, by extension, Negro Leaguers more generally.


                    Ranking Gibson #1 at catcher all-time is hardly revolutionary. Nor is Poz the first person to rank Charleston as high as #2 among center fielders, though that's a less commonly held opinion. The one I find most unusual is ranking Paige 2nd all-time, though on reflection I suppose I have seen people at Baseball Fever over the past 20 years occasionally suggest Paige could be as high as #1. The point is that we just don't know and I, personally, prefer to be conservative in the more subjective portions of (what are admittedly subjective, by nature) player rankings.


                    I thought Charleston moved to first base around 30 and continued to rake until his early 40's? He was also a really good manager. This is all from memory so...
                    IIRC, Charleston was primarily a first baseman from his age 33 season forward. He may well have continued to hit quite well deep into his thirties, but there's little doubt that (a) he wouldn't have hit as well as he did 5 years earlier and (b) his productive with the bat, relative to his position, was worth considerably less than had he hit as well while continuing to play center field well.

                    In other words, his career appears to have been something akin to the first half of Ken Griffey's career and the second half of Stan Musial's. Not the same as if he'd been Ty Cobb (or Willie Mays) throughout, but certainly one of baseball's top inner circle guys.
                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                      Ranking Gibson #1 at catcher all-time is hardly revolutionary. Nor is Poz the first person to rank Charleston as high as #2 among center fielders, though that's a less commonly held opinion. The one I find most unusual is ranking Paige 2nd all-time, though on reflection I suppose I have seen people at Baseball Fever over the past 20 years occasionally suggest Paige could be as high as #1. The point is that we just don't know and I, personally, prefer to be conservative in the more subjective portions of (what are admittedly subjective, by nature) player rankings.
                      At least we have A.L. stats for Paige when he was old - and still really good...

                      Code:
                      Most WAR ages 41-46:
                      # Player       WAR     IP
                      1  N. Ryan    24.7   1060
                      2  J. Quinn   17.1   1031
                      3  Clemens    16.7    638
                      4  P. Niekro  15.1   1286
                      5  C. Young   14.3    883
                      6  Big Unit   12.8    767
                      7  G. Perry   11.4    759
                      8  T. John     9.9    766
                      9  J. Moyer    9.3   1161
                      10 B. Colon    8.5    878
                      11 D. Wells    8.0    612
                      12 Wilhelm     8.0    617
                      13 S. Paige    7.2    473
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Walter Johnson is #7. That means the top 6 are all position players.

                        While we wait for the next reveal, here is how Poz ranks the best pitchers (with their overall ranking on the right in parenthesis):


                        1. Walter Johnson (7)
                        2. Satchel Paige (10)
                        3. Roger Clemens (13)
                        4. Lefty Grove (22)
                        5. Pete Alexander (26)
                        6. Randy Johnson (28)
                        7. Greg Maddux (31)
                        8. Cy Young (34)
                        9. Christy Mathewson (36)
                        10. Pedro Martinez (37)
                        11. Tom Seaver (41)
                        12. Bob Gibson (45)
                        13. Warren Spahn (49)
                        14. Nolan Ryan (50)
                        15. Bob Feller (55)
                        16. Smoky Joe Williams (62)
                        17. Steve Carlton (63)
                        18. Gaylord Perry (68)
                        19. Sandy Koufax (70)
                        20. Bert Blyleven (71)
                        21. Robin Roberts (72)
                        22. Justin Verlander (75)
                        23. Clayton Kershaw (78)
                        24. Fergie Jenkins (81)
                        25. Kid Nichols (82)
                        26. Phil Niekro (83)
                        27. Curt Schilling (88)
                        28. Max Scherzer (90)
                        29. Mariano Rivera (91)
                        30. Bullet Rogan (92)
                        31. Mike Mussina (99)

                        How many gopher balls did he serve up on this list?
                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                        Comment


                        • Wow I would've bet there would be a pitcher in the top 5.


                          "How many gopher balls did he serve up on this list?"

                          Obviously Young at 8 is silly. Seaver at 11 is less so but still silly considering the rankings- Only one top 10 pitcher played in the majors between 1941 and 1986?

                          Comment


                          • Ryan is too high as well.

                            Comment


                            • #6 is Ted Williams.

                              Apparently, Joe's top 5 all-time come down to some combination of Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Hank Aaron and Oscar Charleston?
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                                #6 is Ted Williams.

                                Apparently, Joe's top 5 all-time come down to some combination of Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Hank Aaron and Oscar Charleston?
                                If he has Ruth as number five, I will officially believe that he is really a black guy who uses fake pics of a jewish guy.

                                Comment

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