Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jim Rice Among LFers?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Jim Rice Among LFers?

    I never know quite what to do with Jim Rice when I make my LFer rankings. So I was wondering where other people rank him? Guys I definitely have ahead of him are:

    Ted Williams
    Barry Bonds
    Stan Musial
    Rickey Henderson
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Joe Jackson
    Pete Rose (If I had to pick a position for him)
    Willie Stargell
    Billy Williams
    Al Simmons
    Manny Ramirez
    Tim Raines
    Minnie Minoso
    Ralph Kiner

    Guys I probably have ahead of him are:
    Albert Belle
    Goose Goslin
    Bob Johnson
    Frank Howard

    Then I get kind of fuzzy and don't know where to put Rice in this group:
    Fred Clarke
    Sherry Magee
    Joe Medwick
    Zack Wheat
    Lou Brock
    Bobby Veach

    - Also, I didn't include 19th century players (so no Delahanty) or NLers.

  • #2
    I'm always confused with what to do with Rice as well, mostly because I don't always know what to think of his home/road splits. Generally, I always downplay splits, becaue I think they usually mean many other things other than how much a home park helps the player. But, in Rice's case I think they really may be significant. It's not like it was unexpected, Fenway had the same huge effect to other hitters similar to Rice (Vern Stephens comes to mind).

    I definitely don't think Rice in Hall worthy though. His entire case is built off lots of huge, but extremely superficial numbers that are all big time inflated by Fenway. Rice is a classic case of a player being big time overrated because of the triple crown stats. Rice did do very well in BA, HR, and RBI. But, outside of that it's hard to see what makes him that special. His park helped him a real lot, he walked little (especially for a slugger), his SB percentage was awful, he wasn't much of a fielder, grounded into a TON of double plays, and had a short period of dominance.

    Where do I rate him? Usually around 25th among LFers. I used to have him like 23rd or something, but I've since dropped him (mostly because I realized he really wasn't the best AL hitter 1977-1979 as everyone says he is. Ken Singleton was better). My current LF list goes like this:

    Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Stan Musial, Turkey Stearnes, Tim Raines, Willie Stargell, Ed Delahanty, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Joe Jackson, Fred Clarke, Sherry Magee, Mule Suttles, Goose Goslin, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Ralph Kiner, Frank Howard, Jesse Burkett, Jose Cruz, Monte Irvin, Zack Wheat, Charlie Keller, Lou Brock, Albert Belle, and Jim Rice would probably go right after Belle.
    Last edited by 538280; 02-20-2006, 06:52 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DoubleX
      I never know quite what to do with Jim Rice when I make my LFer rankings. So I was wondering where other people rank him? Guys I definitely have ahead of him are:

      Ted Williams
      Barry Bonds
      Stan Musial
      Rickey Henderson
      Carl Yastrzemski
      Joe Jackson
      Pete Rose (If I had to pick a position for him)
      Willie Stargell
      Billy Williams
      Al Simmons
      Manny Ramirez
      Tim Raines
      Minnie Minoso
      Ralph Kiner

      Guys I probably have ahead of him are:
      Albert Belle
      Goose Goslin
      Bob Johnson
      Frank Howard

      Then I get kind of fuzzy and don't know where to put Rice in this group:
      Fred Clarke
      Sherry Magee
      Joe Medwick
      Zack Wheat
      Lou Brock
      Bobby Veach

      - Also, I didn't include 19th century players (so no Delahanty) or NLers.
      Obviously, put him exactly where I do
      I can't see him any higher than about 23th (not including Stearnes/Suttles but including Manny and Downing) nor any lower than about 27th
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

      Comment


      • #4
        It's like the more I think about Rice, the less I think him worthy for the Hall. Still, I'd say he has a decent shot of one day making it given his vote totals, and then the fact that a lot of the VC will be his peers (though I suppose that could be held against Rice as well).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 538280
          I'm always confused with what to do with Rice as well, mostly because I don't always know what to think of his home/road splits. Generally, I always downplay splits, becaue I think they usually mean many other things other than how much a home park helps the player. But, in Rice's case I think they really may be significant. It's not like it was unexpected, Fenway had the same huge effect to other hitters similar to Rice (Vern Stephens comes to mind).

          I definitely don't think Rice in Hall worthy though. His entire case is built off lots of huge, but extremely superficial numbers that are all big time inflated by Fenway. Rice is a classic case of a player being big time overrated because of the triple crown stats. Rice did do very well in BA, HR, and RBI. But, outside of that it's hard to see what makes him that special. His park helped him a real lot, he walked little (especially for a slugger), his SB percentage was awful, he wasn't much of a fielder, grounded into a TON of double plays, and had a short period of dominance.

          Where do I rate him? Usually around 25th among LFers. I used to have him like 23rd or something, but I've since dropped him (mostly because I realized he really wasn't the best AL hitter 1977-1979 as everyone says he is. Ken Singleton was better). My current LF list goes like this:

          Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Stan Musial, Turkey Stearnes, Tim Raines, Willie Stargell, Ed Delahanty, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Joe Jackson, Fred Clarke, Sherry Magee, Mule Suttles, Goose Goslin, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Ralph Kiner, Frank Howard, Jesse Burkett, Jose Cruz, Monte Irvin, Zack Wheat, Charlie Keller, Lou Brock, Albert Belle, and Jim Rice would probably go right after Belle.
          So what are his splits? Do you have them? Also, I remember you saying something in some post that Bobby Doerr's splits were pretty extreme; do you have those too? Not seasonal, just career?
          "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by iPod
            So what are his splits? Do you have them?
            They only go back to 1978, but
            Away .271/.327/.456
            Home .323/.379/.539
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
              They only go back to 1978, but
              Away .271/.327/.456
              Home .323/.379/.539
              Just because I like to argue...

              Are rice's splits from fenway/road greater than the average split between fenway/road of other redsox players at the time?

              I don't know, and I assume you have it handy.

              If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

              Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

              If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?

              I still wouldn't vote for Rice, he's with Dawson, Parker, Murphy etc. in my book too, just not good enough.

              I just think excluding his fenway stats might be going a little too far.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by iPod
                So what are his splits? Do you have them? Also, I remember you saying something in some post that Bobby Doerr's splits were pretty extreme; do you have those too? Not seasonal, just career?

                RMB gave Rice's splits. Doerr over his career was .315/.395/.532 at home, .261/.327/.389 on the road. It's up there with Klein, Helton, Ken Williams, Foxx, Rice, and a few others as one of the biggest home/road splits of all time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dontworry
                  If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

                  Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

                  If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?
                  I agree with all this.

                  Helton has hit .378 at Coors over his career, but is basically a .300/.400/.500 guy on the road too. Plus you have to consider that most players hit a little better at home anyway, so we can bump those stats a bit and not just double road stats to get an objective view. Also, you have to remember, that unlike other guys Helton doesn't get to hit on the road at Coors to inflate his road stats.

                  Walker hit .381 over his career at Coors and I think for a period of like three seasons actually hit .400 there. Coors is an animal the HOF voters haven't really had to consider yet.
                  THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                  In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dontworry
                    Just because I like to argue...

                    Are rice's splits from fenway/road greater than the average split between fenway/road of other redsox players at the time?

                    I don't know, and I assume you have it handy.

                    If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

                    Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

                    If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?

                    I still wouldn't vote for Rice, he's with Dawson, Parker, Murphy etc. in my book too, just not good enough.

                    I just think excluding his fenway stats might be going a little too far.
                    Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.
                    "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by iPod
                      Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.
                      At a quick glance, Rice's OPS was about 8% over his average at home, 8% worse on the road, and Fenway averaged somewhere around a 106 or 7 for his career.

                      So there's not much there, it's not like he was 15% better in fenway when the rest of the league was 7% better.

                      That 789 Road OPS was still well ahead of league averages at the time.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by iPod
                        Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.
                        This is kind of where I stand, he gets some, but not full credit. Unlike Williams, Boggs or Foxx, or even Manny- Rice doesn't have the stats to spare.
                        THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                        In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by digglahhh
                          Coors is an animal the HOF voters haven't really had to consider yet.
                          A related note to this is that Dante Bichette is eligible for the next BBWAA election. Maybe someone can dig up his H/R splits.
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Freakshow
                            A related note to this is that Dante Bichette is eligible for the next BBWAA election. Maybe someone can dig up his H/R splits.
                            Dante Bichette:
                            Away .268 BA/.303 OBP/.423 SLG
                            Home .331 BA/.369 OBP/.578 SLG
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't have Rice in my top 20 LFers...but he would probably fall in the 22-27 range I would think.

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X