Jim Rice Among LFers?

[DoubleX]

I never know quite what to do with Jim Rice when I make my LFer rankings. So I was wondering where other people rank him? Guys I definitely have ahead of him are:

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Rickey Henderson
Carl Yastrzemski
Joe Jackson
Pete Rose (If I had to pick a position for him)
Willie Stargell
Billy Williams
Al Simmons
Manny Ramirez
Tim Raines
Minnie Minoso
Ralph Kiner

Guys I probably have ahead of him are:
Albert Belle
Goose Goslin
Bob Johnson
Frank Howard

Then I get kind of fuzzy and don't know where to put Rice in this group:
Fred Clarke
Sherry Magee
Joe Medwick
Zack Wheat
Lou Brock
Bobby Veach

- Also, I didn't include 19th century players (so no Delahanty) or NLers.

[538280]

I'm always confused with what to do with Rice as well, mostly because I don't always know what to think of his home/road splits. Generally, I always downplay splits, becaue I think they usually mean many other things other than how much a home park helps the player. But, in Rice's case I think they really may be significant. It's not like it was unexpected, Fenway had the same huge effect to other hitters similar to Rice (Vern Stephens comes to mind).

I definitely don't think Rice in Hall worthy though. His entire case is built off lots of huge, but extremely superficial numbers that are all big time inflated by Fenway. Rice is a classic case of a player being big time overrated because of the triple crown stats. Rice did do very well in BA, HR, and RBI. But, outside of that it's hard to see what makes him that special. His park helped him a real lot, he walked little (especially for a slugger), his SB percentage was awful, he wasn't much of a fielder, grounded into a TON of double plays, and had a short period of dominance.

Where do I rate him? Usually around 25th among LFers. I used to have him like 23rd or something, but I've since dropped him (mostly because I realized he really wasn't the best AL hitter 1977-1979 as everyone says he is. Ken Singleton was better). My current LF list goes like this:

Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Stan Musial, Turkey Stearnes, Tim Raines, Willie Stargell, Ed Delahanty, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Joe Jackson, Fred Clarke, Sherry Magee, Mule Suttles, Goose Goslin, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Ralph Kiner, Frank Howard, Jesse Burkett, Jose Cruz, Monte Irvin, Zack Wheat, Charlie Keller, Lou Brock, Albert Belle, and Jim Rice would probably go right after Belle.

[RuthMayBond]

I never know quite what to do with Jim Rice when I make my LFer rankings. So I was wondering where other people rank him? Guys I definitely have ahead of him are:

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Rickey Henderson
Carl Yastrzemski
Joe Jackson
Pete Rose (If I had to pick a position for him)
Willie Stargell
Billy Williams
Al Simmons
Manny Ramirez
Tim Raines
Minnie Minoso
Ralph Kiner

Guys I probably have ahead of him are:
Albert Belle
Goose Goslin
Bob Johnson
Frank Howard

Then I get kind of fuzzy and don't know where to put Rice in this group:
Fred Clarke
Sherry Magee
Joe Medwick
Zack Wheat
Lou Brock
Bobby Veach

- Also, I didn't include 19th century players (so no Delahanty) or NLers.

Obviously, put him exactly where I do
I can't see him any higher than about 23th (not including Stearnes/Suttles but including Manny and Downing) nor any lower than about 27th

[DoubleX]

It's like the more I think about Rice, the less I think him worthy for the Hall. Still, I'd say he has a decent shot of one day making it given his vote totals, and then the fact that a lot of the VC will be his peers (though I suppose that could be held against Rice as well).

[iPod]

I'm always confused with what to do with Rice as well, mostly because I don't always know what to think of his home/road splits. Generally, I always downplay splits, becaue I think they usually mean many other things other than how much a home park helps the player. But, in Rice's case I think they really may be significant. It's not like it was unexpected, Fenway had the same huge effect to other hitters similar to Rice (Vern Stephens comes to mind).

I definitely don't think Rice in Hall worthy though. His entire case is built off lots of huge, but extremely superficial numbers that are all big time inflated by Fenway. Rice is a classic case of a player being big time overrated because of the triple crown stats. Rice did do very well in BA, HR, and RBI. But, outside of that it's hard to see what makes him that special. His park helped him a real lot, he walked little (especially for a slugger), his SB percentage was awful, he wasn't much of a fielder, grounded into a TON of double plays, and had a short period of dominance.

Where do I rate him? Usually around 25th among LFers. I used to have him like 23rd or something, but I've since dropped him (mostly because I realized he really wasn't the best AL hitter 1977-1979 as everyone says he is. Ken Singleton was better). My current LF list goes like this:

Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Stan Musial, Turkey Stearnes, Tim Raines, Willie Stargell, Ed Delahanty, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Joe Jackson, Fred Clarke, Sherry Magee, Mule Suttles, Goose Goslin, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Ralph Kiner, Frank Howard, Jesse Burkett, Jose Cruz, Monte Irvin, Zack Wheat, Charlie Keller, Lou Brock, Albert Belle, and Jim Rice would probably go right after Belle.

So what are his splits? Do you have them? Also, I remember you saying something in some post that Bobby Doerr's splits were pretty extreme; do you have those too? Not seasonal, just career?

[RuthMayBond]

So what are his splits? Do you have them?

They only go back to 1978, but
Away .271/.327/.456
Home .323/.379/.539

[Dontworry]

They only go back to 1978, but
Away .271/.327/.456
Home .323/.379/.539

Just because I like to argue...

Are rice's splits from fenway/road greater than the average split between fenway/road of other redsox players at the time?

I don't know, and I assume you have it handy.

If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?

I still wouldn't vote for Rice, he's with Dawson, Parker, Murphy etc. in my book too, just not good enough.

I just think excluding his fenway stats might be going a little too far.

[538280]

So what are his splits? Do you have them? Also, I remember you saying something in some post that Bobby Doerr's splits were pretty extreme; do you have those too? Not seasonal, just career?

RMB gave Rice's splits. Doerr over his career was .315/.395/.532 at home, .261/.327/.389 on the road. It's up there with Klein, Helton, Ken Williams, Foxx, Rice, and a few others as one of the biggest home/road splits of all time.

[digglahhh]

If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?

I agree with all this.

Helton has hit .378 at Coors over his career, but is basically a .300/.400/.500 guy on the road too. Plus you have to consider that most players hit a little better at home anyway, so we can bump those stats a bit and not just double road stats to get an objective view. Also, you have to remember, that unlike other guys Helton doesn't get to hit on the road at Coors to inflate his road stats.

Walker hit .381 over his career at Coors and I think for a period of like three seasons actually hit .400 there. Coors is an animal the HOF voters haven't really had to consider yet.

[iPod]

Just because I like to argue...

Are rice's splits from fenway/road greater than the average split between fenway/road of other redsox players at the time?

I don't know, and I assume you have it handy.

If he actually produced at Fenway at a higher rate than other hitters were improved by fenway, on average, isn't that to his credit?

Some day a Rockies hitter (maybe Todd Helton) is going to be up for enshrinement. and I'm sure his home/road splits are going to be awful, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss everything they do at home.

If he performs better at coors than other hitters do, it's to his credit, isn't it?

I still wouldn't vote for Rice, he's with Dawson, Parker, Murphy etc. in my book too, just not good enough.

I just think excluding his fenway stats might be going a little too far.

Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.

[Dontworry]

Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.

At a quick glance, Rice's OPS was about 8% over his average at home, 8% worse on the road, and Fenway averaged somewhere around a 106 or 7 for his career.

So there's not much there, it's not like he was 15% better in fenway when the rest of the league was 7% better.

That 789 Road OPS was still well ahead of league averages at the time.....

[digglahhh]

Don't exclude them, but it certainly is detrimental to his Hall of Fame case.

This is kind of where I stand, he gets some, but not full credit. Unlike Williams, Boggs or Foxx, or even Manny- Rice doesn't have the stats to spare.

[Freakshow]

Coors is an animal the HOF voters haven't really had to consider yet.

A related note to this is that Dante Bichette is eligible for the next BBWAA election. Maybe someone can dig up his H/R splits.

[RuthMayBond]

A related note to this is that Dante Bichette is eligible for the next BBWAA election. Maybe someone can dig up his H/R splits.

Dante Bichette:
Away .268 BA/.303 OBP/.423 SLG
Home .331 BA/.369 OBP/.578 SLG

[baseballPAP]

I don't have Rice in my top 20 LFers...but he would probably fall in the 22-27 range I would think.