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2019-2020 BBF Top 75 Position Pitchers of All-Time #1-5

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  • #61
    I'll be adding this up tomorrow, so last chances.
    R.I.P. Farmio
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    • #62
      Totals:


      Walter Johnson - 81
      Cy Young - 43
      Lefty Grove - 34
      Christy Mathewson - 7
      Grover Cleveland Alexander - 12
      Roger Clemens - 35
      Tom Seaver - 13
      Greg Maddux - 24
      Kid Nichols - 2
      Satchel Paige - 1
      Randy Johnson - 2
      Pedro Martinez - 1

      Super tight dogfight between Clemens and Grove for third, with Clemens winning by one vote 35-34.


      1. Walter Johnson - 81
      2. Cy Young - 43
      3. Roger Clemens - 35
      4. Lefty Grove - 34
      5. Greg Maddux - 24
      Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 03-29-2020, 09:19 AM.
      R.I.P. Farmio
      Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

      Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

      Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
        Super tight dogfight between Clemens and Grove for third, with Clemens winning by one vote 35-34.
        Makes sense they seem cut from the same cloth.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
          Totals:
          1. Walter Johnson - 81
          2. Cy Young - 43
          3. Roger Clemens - 35
          4. Lefty Grove - 34
          5. Greg Maddux - 24
          Wait a minute. Back this up.

          How in the world does Clemens get ranked well ahead of Maddux? Did we have a 10 year blind spot and forget about how he got where he did and put up the numbers he did?

          Also, what did Walter Johnson do that Cy Young didn't do as well, or better, overall, or at his best?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post

            Wait a minute. Back this up.

            How in the world does Clemens get ranked well ahead of Maddux? Did we have a 10 year blind spot and forget about how he got where he did and put up the numbers he did?

            Also, what did Walter Johnson do that Cy Young didn't do as well, or better, overall, or at his best?
            Well, I didn't vote for Clemens over Maddux, so you'll need to ask others....


            As for Walter over Cy Young, I have them both very closely rated together, with Walter getting the nod. Cy has advantages over Walter, but Walter pulls ahead for me due to league quality, better stick, better ERA+ and me discounting some of Cy's work in the pre-1893 era.

            I've flipped them before depending on how much I'm weighing particular factors. I have them ranked 1-2, and wouldn't object to either taking the top spot.
            R.I.P. Farmio
            Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

            Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

            Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

              Well, I didn't vote for Clemens over Maddux, so you'll need to ask others....

              As for Walter over Cy Young, I have them both very closely rated together, with Walter getting the nod. Cy has advantages over Walter, but Walter pulls ahead for me due to league quality, better stick, better ERA+ and me discounting some of Cy's work in the pre-1893 era.

              I've flipped them before depending on how much I'm weighing particular factors. I have them ranked 1-2, and wouldn't object to either taking the top spot.
              I currently put Young ahead of everyone, except possibly Maddux, mainly for this (very well articulated) reason. Quote in italics from "Cy Young" biography Author, Reed Browning.

              Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
              Cy Young and Reinventing The Game

              Some, like Johnson and Alexander, had to deal with both the liveball and major shoulder injuries concomitantly.

              But, Young faced even more monumental adjustments- and must have had to make massive alterations accordingly. He reinvented himself midcareer, albeit in a different way. It was more like he had to reinvent himself several times over from 1890-1911.

              In the last chapter of his Cy Young biography, Reed Browning makes a very strong case as to why Young has a legitimate claim as being deemed the greatest pitcher of all time.

              "The second consideration is that Cy Young chalked up his remarkable record of protracted greatness while coping with a stream of alterations in the way baseball was played. There were changes in the rules, most significantly the great discontinuity of 1893 that lengthened the pitching distance, but also the adoption of the foul strike rule in 1903. There were shifts in the definition of bunts and balks, the emergence of a raised mound for the pitcher, the deepening of pitching staffs, the adoption of fielders gloves, the evolving concept of scientific baseball. It was because the game was almost constantly in very visible transition that Cy Young labored so hard to add deliveries to his repertory. And it is a mark of his success both in the year in which major league batting averages reached their all time high (.309 in 1894) and in which they reached what was their alltime low (.239 in 1908) until the 1968 season snuck beneath it. In short, Cy Young lasted as long as he did not simply because he was blessed with a tough body and durable arm, but also because he used his intelligence to study, adapt, and learn. He was one of the smartest pitchers in baseball history.

              So, again, was Cy Young the greatest pitcher of all times? We don't know, of course. There's no way-- pace all the sabermetricians in the audience--that we can even out all the changes in equipment, in paying rules, in strike zone dimensions, in ground rules, in travel circumstances, in ball parks, in times of play, in pitchers, in strategy, in training practices, in coaching assistance, in umpiring, in protection of injured players, in media attention, in roster sizes, in housing/travel circumstances, and in off-season activities that have occurred over the years. And that means that there is no way we can compare the distilled pitching essence of Cy Young to the distilled pitching essences of Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, or Greg Maddux. Moreover, much depends on how you define "greatest"- are you talking about absolute dominance over a short span of time? Or are you talking about enduring success over a wide span of years? Or perhaps blending these two measures in some unspoken formula? By whatever definition one operates, Cy Young is clearly a candidate for the honor. And the greater the weight you give to sustaining of excellence over a long period of time, and the more you are willing to assume that a man who had proved himself extremely smart and adaptable in his own (ephemeral) day would continue to show those traits in a later era, the stronger Cy Young's candidacy becomes."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post

                Wait a minute. Back this up.

                How in the world does Clemens get ranked well ahead of Maddux? Did we have a 10 year blind spot and forget about how he got where he did and put up the numbers he did?

                Also, what did Walter Johnson do that Cy Young didn't do as well, or better, overall, or at his best?
                Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                PARC-D >65 (for reference purposes)

                Let me know if you have any requests.
                # Pitcher PARC-D
                1 Walter Johnson 321
                2 Roger Clemens 299
                3 Cy Young 296
                4 Pete Alexander 225
                5 Lefty Grove 224
                6 Christy Mathewson 217
                7 Tom Seaver 214
                8 Randy Johnson 209
                9 Kid Nichols 207
                10 Greg Maddux 201
                11 Warren Spahn 190
                12 Bob Gibson 178
                13 Pedro Martinez 169
                14 Eddie Plank 162
                15 Bert Blyleven 160
                16 Phil Niekro 158
                17 Curt Schilling 156
                18 Steve Carlton 153
                19 Mike Mussina 153
                20 Bob Feller 150
                21 Fergie Jenkins 143
                22 Tom Glavine 142
                23 Robin Roberts 140
                24 Mariano Rivera 137
                25 Gaylord Perry 136
                26 John Clarkson 131
                27 Justin Verlander 130
                28 Zack Greinke 129
                29 Tim Keefe 128
                30 Clayton Kershaw 128
                31 Ed Walsh 128
                32 Max Scherzer 127
                33 John Smoltz 126
                34 Carl Hubbell 124
                35 Roy Halladay 124
                36 Jim Palmer 122
                37 Hal Newhouser 118
                38 David Cone 115
                39 Nolan Ryan 113
                40 Rick Reuschel 112
                41 Cole Hamels 112
                42 Wes Ferrell 112
                43 Ted Lyons 111
                44 Kevin Brown 111
                45 Luis Tiant 111
                45 Juan Marichal 111
                47 Dennis Eckersley 111
                48 Old Hoss Radbourn 110
                49 Stan Coveleski 110
                50 Whitey Ford 110
                51 Red Ruffing 109
                52 Andy Pettitte 108
                53 Bret Saberhagen 108
                54 Rube Waddell 108
                55 Jim Bunning 106
                56 Dazzy Vance 106
                57 Bob Caruthers 106
                58 Mordecai Brown 105
                59 Urban Shocker 104
                60 Eddie Cicotte 104
                61 Vic Willis 103
                62 Joe McGinnity 103
                63 Don Drysdale 102
                64 Amos Rusie 102
                65 Dave Stieb 101
                66 Jim McCormick 100
                67 Charlie Buffinton 100
                68 CC Sabathia 99
                69 Red Faber 98
                70 George Uhle 98
                71 Tommy Bond 97
                72 Kevin Appier 97
                73 Clark Griffith 96
                74 Babe Adams 96
                75 Al Spalding 96
                76 Tony Mullane 93
                77 Tommy John 93
                78 Sandy Koufax 93
                79 Pud Galvin 92
                80 Johan Santana 92
                81 Chris Sale 91
                82 Bob Lemon 89
                83 Nap Rucker 89
                84 Dizzy Dean 89
                85 Billy Pierce 88
                86 Jimmy Key 88
                87 Hoyt Wilhelm 88
                88 Early Wynn 87
                89 Jack Quinn 87
                90 Chuck Finley 87
                91 Frank Tanana 87
                92 Orel Hershiser 87
                93 Dwight Gooden 87
                94 Tommy Bridges 87
                95 Dizzy Trout 87
                96 Tim Hudson 86
                87 David Wells 86
                98 Bucky Walters 86
                99 Roy Oswalt 86
                100 Eddie Rommell 86
                101 Noodles Hahn 86
                102 Felix Hernandez 85
                103 Hippo Vaughan 85
                104 Don Sutton 84
                105 Mark Buehrle 84
                106 Wilbur Cooper 84
                107 Jerry Koosman 84
                108 Carl Mays 84
                109 Mickey Lolich 84
                110 Frank Viola 84
                111 Jon Lester 84
                112 Silver King 83
                113 Mark Langston 83
                114 Wilbur Wood 82
                115 Ron Guidry 82
                116 Carlos Zambrano 82
                117 Cliff Lee 82
                118 Rich Gossage 82
                119 Don Newcombe 82
                120 Jim Whitney 81
                121 Al Orth 81
                122 Burleigh Grimes 80
                123 Dolph Luque 80
                124 Waite Hoyt 77
                125 Larry Jackson 77
                126 Harry Brecheen 77
                127 Joe Wood 77
                128 Addie Joss 76
                129 Virgil Trucks 76
                130 Ted Breitenstein 75
                131 Lon Warneke 75
                132 Mickey Welch 74
                133 Herb Pennock 73
                134 Doc White 72
                135 Bartolo Colon 72
                136 Jack Stivetts 72
                137 Sam McDowell 72
                138 Bob Shawkey 71
                139 Jack Powell 70
                140 Jesse Tannehill 70
                141 Jacob deGrom 70
                142 Eppa Rixey 69
                143 Jim Kaat 69
                144 Jose Rijo 69
                145 Chief Bender 68
                146 Vida Blue 68
                147 Bobby Shantz 68
                148 Javier Vazquez 67
                149 Murry Dickson 67
                150 Jack Chesbro 67
                151 Brandon Webb 67
                155 Kenny Rogers 66
                153 Claude Passeau 66
                154 Red Lucas 66
                155 Mel Harder 66
                156 Jack Morris 66
                Johnson first in PARC-D, Clemens second, Young third, Maddux 10th.

                Comment


                • #68



                  1 Walter Johnson 1907 - 1927 21 SP 2517 5914.2 104.0 12.2 -0.2 92.0 0.0
                  2 Cy Young 1890 - 1911 22 SP 3101 7354.2 92.6 -1.9 -0.5 94.7 0.2
                  3 Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007 24 SP 213 4916.2 91.3 0.6 -0.0 90.8 0.0
                  4 Pete Alexander 1911 - 1930 20 SP 1977 5190.0 75.8 3.2 -0.2 72.8 0.1
                  5 Kid Nichols 1890 - 1906 15 SP 2258 5056.1 68.3 -0.4 -0.5 69.0 0.1
                  6 Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941 17 SP 1579 3940.2 67.1 -6.4 0.0 73.4 0.1
                  7 Tom Seaver 1967 - 1986 20 SP 1552 4782.2 66.6 3.4 0.3 62.8 0.1
                  8 Greg Maddux 1986 - 2008 23 SP 1812 5008.1 63.7 1.6 -0.0 62.1 0.1
                  9 Randy Johnson 1988 - 2009 22 SP 691 4135.1 62.3 -2.4 -0.1 64.8 0.0
                  10 Christy Mathewson 1900 - 1916 17 SP 1886 4780.2 62.3 6.4 -0.3 56.1 0.1
                  11 Pedro Martinez 1992 - 2009 18 SP 518 2827.1 57.6 -2.2 -0.0 59.8 0.0
                  12 Bob Gibson 1959 - 1975 17 SP 1489 3884.1 52.0 7.0 0.2 44.7 0.1
                  13 Curt Schilling 1988 - 2007 20 SP 901 3261.0 50.7 -1.1 -0.0 51.8 0.1
                  14 Clayton Kershaw 2008 - 2019 12 SP 808 2274.1 48.3 2.5 -0.1 45.8 0.1
                  15 Eddie Plank 1901 - 1917 17 SP 1778 4495.2 47.6 3.3 -0.1 44.4 0.0
                  16 Bert Blyleven 1970 - 1992 22 SP 514 4970.0 47.5 -1.7 -0.0 49.2 -0.0
                  17 Phil Niekro 1964 - 1987 24 SP 1707 5404.1 46.8 -1.4 0.2 47.8 0.1
                  18 Mike Mussina 1991 - 2008 18 SP 54 3562.2 46.5 0.0 0.0 46.5 0.0
                  19 Warren Spahn 1942 - 1965 21 SP 2055 5243.2 46.0 7.4 -0.3 38.8 0.2
                  20 Zack Greinke 2004 - 2019 16 SP 598 2872.0 44.6 5.0 -0.1 39.7 0.0
                  21 Tim Keefe 1880 - 1893 14 SP 2262 5047.2 43.5 -2.2 -0.5 45.9 0.2
                  22 Steve Carlton 1965 - 1988 24 SP 1877 5217.1 43.0 5.7 0.3 37.0 0.1
                  23 Tom Glavine 1987 - 2008 22 SP 1645 4413.1 42.9 6.5 -0.1 36.3 0.1
                  24 Mariano Rivera 1995 - 2013 19 RP 4 1283.2 42.5 -0.0 0.0 42.5 0.0
                  25 Fergie Jenkins 1965 - 1983 19 SP 1010 4500.2 41.8 1.7 0.2 39.8 0.1
                  In rWAA, Johnson is first all time, Young second, Clemens third, Maddux 8th. Accounting for league quality, Clemens passes Young for second.

                  http://www.thebaseballgauge.com/hist...e=1&sort=tot_a

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post

                    I currently put Young ahead of everyone, except possibly Maddux, mainly for this (very well articulated) reason. Quote in italics from "Cy Young" biography Author, Reed Browning.
                    Thank you for reposting the previous post...I agree with a lot of what it says. Right now I'm with Walter as number one, but in other years I've gone with Cy. They are extremely close in my rankings, and for either one, I think they're worthy of a first place vote.
                    R.I.P. Farmio
                    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                    Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                    Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                      Thank you for reposting the previous post...I agree with a lot of what it says. Right now I'm with Walter as number one, but in other years I've gone with Cy. They are extremely close in my rankings, and for either one, I think they're worthy of a first place vote.
                      It's awfully hard to not vote for arguably the kindest person in baseball history, who also died tragically, and relatively young. There is nothing negative to say about Big Train as a person; he's almost a Saint.

                      If there is any knock on Walter Johnson; it's contextual and psychological.

                      Among all pitchers from 1907-1927, (and for obvious reasons he pitched by far the most during those years), Big Train only allowed 40 home runs at home. That is 25th most of all pitchers during that entire timeframe.

                      Big Train, unlike Pete Alexander and Grove, had to ever honestly worry about the longball, in his home park. Imagine how much easier this made his job compared to his generation, post 1920, and later generations.

                      This psychological effect can't really be adjusted for, statistically.

                      This is taken from this outstanding book on deadball park effects: https://www.amazon.com/Ballparks-Dea...=UTF8&qid=&sr=
                      Screen Shot 2020-05-07 at 10.49.09 AM.png


                      Young didn't face the cork centered pill of 1911-1913, nor did he pitch after 1920, but he pitched all though an era where teams averaged 6 runs per game and everything was aligned against pitchers. Young quite arguably adapted better than any pitcher in history.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by NJRob65 View Post



                        Johnson first in PARC-D, Clemens second, Young third, Maddux 10th.
                        Hi Rob!
                        Thank you for the info. I'm getting more familiar with PARC-D. I find it intriguing and applaud Bothrops, massively, for his monumental efforts!!!

                        That said, as a rule, I try not to strictly adhere to any one omni metric when assessing greatness, skills, and statistical value. I don't assume any, on their own, are entirely valid and accurate. I do think that when there is a huge correlation between metrics, that it is likely that those results are pointing to objective truths about a given player.

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