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2019-2020 BBF Top 75 Position Pitchers of All-Time #6-5-10

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  • #16
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Pete Alexander
    3. Randy Johnson
    4. Warren Spahn
    5. Christy Mathewson
    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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    • #17
      Originally posted by dgarza View Post
      1. Grover Cleveland Alexander
      2. Christy Mathewson
      3. Randy Johnson
      4. Warren Spahn
      5. Mariano Rivera
      Hot take!!

      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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      • #18
        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

        Thought you were going to try to slide a Pirate in there.
        The Bucs are just a tad light on the pitching side- maybe Alvin O'Neal McBean?

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        • #19
          1. Tom Seaver
          2. Grover Cleveland Alexander
          3. Randy Johnson
          4. Pedro Martinez
          5. Christy Mathewson

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          • #20
            1 Tom Seaver
            2 Pedro Martinez
            3 Pete Alexander
            4 Bob Feller
            5 Bob Gibson

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            • #21
              1. Pete Alexander
              2. Tom Seaver
              3. Randy Johnson
              4. Christy Mathewson
              5. Satchel Paige

              Spahn and Feller headline the next batch for me ...
              "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
              - Sammy Sosa

              "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
              - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)

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              • #22
                1. Tom Seaver
                2. Pete Alexander
                3. Randy Johnson
                4. Satchel Paige
                5. Kid Nichols

                Apparently, I'm the only one who sees Nichols > Mathewson.

                so be it.jpg
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                  1. Tom Seaver
                  2. Pete Alexander
                  3. Randy Johnson

                  4. Satchel Paige
                  5. Kid Nichols

                  Apparently, I'm the only one who sees Nichols > Mathewson.

                  so be it.jpg
                  For me, I've got your same top 3, then a small gap to a glut of 9-15: Spahn, Mathewson, Pedro, Paige, Gibson, Nichols, and Smokey.
                  Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                  http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Satchel
                    Alexander
                    Seaver
                    Big Unit
                    Kid Nichols

                    Hated to leave Christy and Pedro off. Spahn the other runner-up.
                    Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                      For me, I've got your same top 3, then a small gap to a glut of 9-15: Spahn, Mathewson, Pedro, Paige, Gibson, Nichols, and Smokey.
                      I'm glad you brought up Joe Williams. Judging by the posts, I can tell that Satchel Paige is going to be ranked higher than Joe Williams, but not from my ballots. I have Williams ranked higher. Joe Williams was much more of a starter than Satchel Paige was. Looking at their Seamheads pages, Williams started 82% of his games while Pages started 76%. And Williams was also more of workhorse than Paige. Williams completed 67% of his games and 82% of his starts. Paige completed 41% of games and 54% of his starts.

                      On top of that, Williams was a much better batter than Paige. Seamheads shows a 108 vs. 45 OPS+ calculation for the Negro Leagues. And that advantage is with Williams having 62% more PAs than Paige. Additionally, Williams played the field more than Paige, with 40 discrete positional instances vs. just 9 for Paige.

                      I know that Paige's 170 Seamheads Negro League ERA+ soundly beats Williams's 146 ERA+, but Williams threw over 660 more innings than Paige, 42.7% more than Paige.

                      Paige lost a significant amount of time in his early 30s due to arm troubles (more than one year). There was speculation if he would every pitch again (of course, we know that he was able to pitch again). That injury really hurts his career and case in my rankings. If Paige did not have that injury, he may very well be ranked up there with Joe Williams, possibly higher. But considering that injury, I don't think his 476 IP in the majors (2/3 of that in relief) make up enough to place him over Williams.

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                      • #26
                        Mathewson
                        R Johnson
                        Seaver
                        Alexander
                        Spahn
                        This week's Giant

                        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                        • #27
                          Interesting discussion about Williams/Paige which is vaulting him into the picture for me for the next round. My take on Paige has always been that, since he was a huge degree the "face of the game" due to his colorful personality, much of his pitching was done in a "non-official" capacity for which no records were kept. Despite that, the fact that he was able to pitch so successfully at an advanced age once he got to the MLB - even in part-time service - speaks to just how amazing he must have been before all the mileage on his arm, and how many unaccounted-for innings must have been added on the exhibition/traveling circuit - just a guess that it was more than Williams, but if anyone knows otherwise, I'd reevaluate.

                          Then again, the other way for me to look at it is, because Paige was better-known (and so talented at self-mythologizing), he was given the chance to show what he still had at an advanced age - a chance Smokey Joe never got.

                          I still rate Paige higher for the reasons above, but for much of what dgarza brings up above - and for the fact that all accounts I've read suggest their contemporaries rated them fairly close to equal, I'm definitely voting Williams next time.
                          Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Paige was the #1 drawing card on his clubs and when barnstorming in between league play the Monarchs (or whatever team he was on) were expected or even explicitly told he needed to pitch the first three innings to make sure fans showed up and were satisfied while not destroying his arm for three innings the next day. He wasn't the only pitcher this was the case for. Just pointing it out.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Good points all on Paige and Smokey, happy Thursday!
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                                Hot take!!
                                That a failed starter with under 1,300 innings pitched is one of the top 10 pitchers ever? Hot take indeed.

                                And I'm a big Mariano fan and feel he is clearly the beat relief pitcher ever by a healthy margin.
                                My top 10 players:

                                1. Babe Ruth
                                2. Barry Bonds
                                3. Ty Cobb
                                4. Ted Williams
                                5. Willie Mays
                                6. Alex Rodriguez
                                7. Hank Aaron
                                8. Honus Wagner
                                9. Lou Gehrig
                                10. Mickey Mantle

                                Comment

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