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  • BBF Ranking Game - Election #106 - Voting

    Welcome to the BBF Ranking Game. We are creating an all-time ranking of players based on the wisdom of the crowd.

    This is the Voting thread for Election #105, where we will determine the 1242nd-1260th best players of all-time. In the nomination thread: https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/general-baseball/history-of-the-game/3652099-bbf-ranking-game-election-106-nominations, we determined these as the 38 candidates for this election:
    1. Bret Boone
    2. Clete Boyer
    3. Byron Buxton
    4. Ed Charles
    5. Willie Crawford
    6. Roosevelt Davis
    7. Howard Easterling
    8. Mark Eichhorn
    9. Bob Ewing
    10. Davy Force
    11. George Hall
    12. Ramon Hernandez
    13. Joe Horlen
    14. Willie Horton
    15. Ryan Howard
    16. Stan Javier
    17. Al Lopez
    18. Tino Martinez
    19. Mike Marshall (RP)
    20. Mark Melancon
    21. Earl Moore
    22. Justin Morneau
    23. Lloyd Moseby
    24. Don Mossi
    25. Charles Nagy
    26. Ron Perranoski
    27. Ron Reed
    28. Branch Russell
    29. Frank Schulte
    30. Mike Stanley
    31. Kevin Tapani
    32. Adonis Terry
    33. Koji Uehara
    34. Bob Veale
    35. Roy Welmaker
    36. Billy Weber
    37. Edgar Wesley
    38. Steve Yeager
    39. Tom York
    40. Michael Young
    The preferred voting method is to make a post here ranking these players from 1 to 38, from best to worst. We’re also allowing the use of Ties and Quadrant Voting as options.

    The voting will remain open at least 72 hours (though ~a week may be suitable the later we go in elections).
    ​​​​
    After that, three voters are needed to end it (Nominate Closing – 2nd – 3rd). Then someone will tally the results, which I can handle for the present time.

    Please post any questions concerning this project in the Proposal thread. You will also find complete rules for this project. Thanks for playing!

    Criteria for election:
    • We’ll consider anyone who could be eligible as a player for the NBHOFM. So all professional players in the United States since 1869. Value in other play such as NABBP, foreign leagues, barnstorming, etc., should be considered, as long as a significant portion of a player’s career value was accrued in professional play in North America.
    • We do want to consider circumstances that prevented players from participating at the game’s highest level at times when they could have been contributors. Due credit should be given for time missed due to short schedules, military service, racial barriers, being trapped in the minors, being blackballed or banned. But no extra credit for injuries, accidents or premature death.
    • Voters are expected to make their best effort to rank Negro leaguers and other players for whom the statistical record is incomplete or sketchy.
    • It’s left to the individual voter how much consideration to give to peak vs career, league quality affects, positional balance, time-lining, postseason credit, leverage, etc.
    • We’re here to rank the players, from the greatest on down. “The definition of a great player is one who helps his team win a lot of games.” -Bill James
    • So this ain’t the hall of fame; there’s no “character clause”. We’re assessing playing performance, nothing else. This task is difficult enough; we don’t need to consider how much weight to give non-playing factors, such as speculations about leadership, or sanctions for cheating, or hit pieces from disaffected writers, etc.

    NOTE: Let's aim for Friday morning cutoff ~ 1 am / June 24th, extend to June 25th if needed.
    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

  • #2
    1. Adonis Terry
    2. Michael Young
    3. Frank Schulte
    4. Willie Horton
    5. Tino Martinez
    6. Bret Boone
    7. Ryan Howard
    8. Ron Reed
    9. Lloyd Moseby
    10. Justin Morneau
    11. Al Lopez
    12. Billy Werber (corrected from 36 when originally typed up)
    13. Earl Moore
    14. Clete Boyer
    15. Ramon Hernandez
    16. Bob Ewing
    17. Mike Marshall
    18. Mike Stanley
    19. Stan Javier
    20. Kevin Tapani
    21. Ron Perranoski
    22. Bob Veale
    23. Roosevelt Davis
    24. Willie Crawford
    25. Tom York
    26. Don Mossi
    27. Joe Horlen
    28. Roy Welmaker (re-reviewed and boosted)
    29. Howard Easterling
    30. Edgar Wesley
    31. Branch Russell
    32. Charles Nagy
    33. Koji Uehara
    34. Steve Yeager
    35. Mark Melancon
    36. Ed Charles
    37. Davy Force
    38. Mark Eichhorn
    39. Byron Buxton
    40. George Hall
    Last edited by Blubbla; 06-18-2022, 09:45 AM. Reason: corrected Werber ranking and Hernandez name

    Comment


    • #3
      Is Ramon Martinez, Hernandez?

      Surprised to see Werber so low with you 3rd ing him, a closer look brought him lower?
      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
      http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
        Is Ramon Martinez, Hernandez?

        Surprised to see Werber so low with you 3rd ing him, a closer look brought him lower?
        It is Hernandez. Brain went on autopilot typing that up.

        Looking at Werber again. I misread the number that I had written down for him... pretty significant error. Should slot 12th. Thanks for questioning that. I've had players go quite differently from ranking board to ballot (Eichhorn didn't fare well on this particular one), but Werber shouldn't have been one of those.

        Comment


        • #5
          Queue update - newcomers italicized:



          P - Al Benton, Hal Carlson, Ray Collins,General Crowder, Bill Doak, Jeff Fassero, Ken Forsch, Vean Gregg, Ed Killian, Ray Kremer, Henry McHenry, Lee Meadows, Jouett Meekin, George Mogridge, Mike Moore, Mike Morgan, Joe Niekro, Nels Potter, Billy Rhines, Reb Russell, Scott Sanderson, Ervin Santana, Jim Scott, Mike Scott, Rip Sewell, Sherry Smith, Tommy Thomas, Fred Toney, Ismael Valdez, Jake Weimer, Whit Wyatt


          C - Alex Avila, Mike Grady, Heinie Peitz, Muddy Ruel, Don Slaught, Frank Snyder, Kurt Suzuki, Ernie Whitt, Art Wilson, Ivey Wingo


          1B - Ripper Collins, Jack Doyle, Charlie Hickman, Johnny Hopp, Joe Kuhel, John Mayberry, John Morrill, Carlos Pena, Jason Thompson, Tommy Tucker


          2B - Dave Cash, Craig Counsell, Tom Daly, Delino DeShields, Jack Farrell, Mark Grudzielanek, Tom Herr, Johnny Ray, Bip Roberts, Kolten Wong


          3B - Casey Blake, Tom Burns, Jerry Denny, Chone Figgins, Hans Lobert, Mike Lowell, Dave Melarcher, Bill Mueller, Ken Oberkfell, George Pinkney, Eric Soderholm


          SS - Jack Barry, Mike Bordick, Pelayo Chacon, Woody English, Yunel Escobar, Greg Gagne, J.J. Hardy, Woodie Held, Billy Jurges, Billy Rogell, Jack Wilson


          LF - John Anderson, Jimmy “Nixey” Callahan, Bernard Gilkey, Tommy Harper, Carlos Lee, Shane Mack, Wally Moon, Shannon Stewart, John Stone, Tillie Walker


          CF - Michael Bourn, Al Bumbry, Marlon Byrd, Coco Crisp, Carlos Gomez, Austin Jackson, Johnny Mostil, Stan Spence, Amos Strunk, Curt Welch


          RF - Jelly Gardner, Ival Goodman, Bake McBride, Bing Miller, Jim Northrup, Josh Reddick, Merv Rettenmund, Socks Seybold, Orator Shafer, Ed Swartwood, Randy Winn


          DH - Mike Sweeney, Andre Thornton

          Comment


          • #6
            Lot of dubious candidates, weak class:

            1. Joe Horlen
            2. Willie Crawford
            3. Don Mossi
            4. Mark Eichorn
            5. Mark Melancon
            6. Ed Charles
            7. Bob Veale
            8. Mike Stanley
            9. Lloyd Moseby
            10. Byron Buxton
            11. Koji Uehara
            12. Ron Perranoski
            13. Kevin Tapani
            14. Justin Morneau
            15. Bob Ewing
            16. Ron Reed
            17. Charles Nagy
            18. Branch Russell
            19. Edgar Wesley
            20. Stan Javier
            21. Mike Marshall
            22. Clete Boyer
            23. Earl Moore
            24. Adonis Terry
            25. Howard Easterling
            26. Steve Yeager
            27. Tino Martinez
            28. Ramon Hernandez
            29. Roosevelt Davis
            30. Billy Werber
            31. Roy Welmaker
            32. Tom York
            33. Willie Horton
            34. George Hall
            35. Bret Boone
            36. Frank Schulte
            37. Ryan Howard
            38. Davy Force
            39. Michael Young
            40. Al Lopez
            Last edited by NJRob65; 06-18-2022, 10:29 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Updated Queue. Promotions to Tier 1 in italics, new additions underlined.

              Catcher:
              Tier 1: Mike Grady, Hank Leiber, Joe Greene (NeL, Military Credit), Don Slaught, Tom Young (NeL)
              Tier 2: Ron Karkovice, Mitchell Murray (NeL), Jim Pagliaroni, Matt Wieters, Ernie Whitt

              First Base:
              Tier 1: Zeke Bonura, Ripper Collins, Joe Cunningham, Glenn Davis, Joe Kuhel
              Tier 2: Ray Grimes (PCL), Charlie Hickman, John Mayberry, Carlos Pena, Perry Werden

              Second Base:
              Tier 1: Tom Herr, Jim Lefebvre, Ketel Marte, Whit Merrifield, Pat Patterson (NeL, Military Credit)
              Tier 2: Delino DeShields, Jack Farrell, Daniel Mark Grudzielanek, Kolton Wong

              Third Base:
              Tier 1: Rafael Devers, Bob Ferguson, Brett Lawrie, Doug Rader, Pete Ward
              Tier 2: John Castino, Oliver Marcelle (NeL), Bill Mueller, Eric Soderholm, Sammy Strang
              ,
              Short Stop:
              Tier 1: Jack Barry, Mike Bordick, Woody English, Yunel Escobar, JJ Hardy
              Tier 2: Erick Aybar, Pelayo Chacon (NeL), Woody English, Bill Jurges, Pythias Russ (NeL)

              Left Field:
              Tier 1: John Anderson, Carlos Lee, Wally Moon, Tommy Pham, John Stone
              Tier 2: Bernard Gilkey, Bobby Higginson, Shane Mack, Charlie Maxwell, Tom Tresh

              Center Field:
              Tier 1: Michael Bourn, Coco Crisp, Johnny Hopp, Barney McCoskey (Military Credit), Johnny Mostil
              Tier 2: Irvin Brooks (NeL), Marlon Byrd, Pedro Formental (NeL/Cuba/Mex), Carlos Gomez, Jacinto Roque (NeL/Mex)

              Right Field:
              Tier 1: Ival Goodman, Danny Green, Bake McBride, Josh Reddick, Orator Shafer
              Tier 2: Michael Conforto, Jermaine Dye, Trot Nixon, Yasiel Puig, Socks Seybold

              Starting Pitcher:
              Tier 1: Tiny Bonham, Mark Fidrych, Cherokee Fisher, Rats Henderson (NeL), Scott Kazmir, Ray Kremer, Nels Potter (Military Credit), Fred Toney, Ted Trent (NeL), Jake Weimern
              Tier 2: General Crowder, Dick Donovan, Ken Holtzman, Toothpick Jones, Dennis Leonard, Lee Meadows, Mike Moore, Dutch Ruether, Reb Russell, Scott Sanderson

              Starting Pitcher/Relief Pitcher:
              Tier 1: Red Ames, Clint Brown, Ken Forsch, Ted Wilks, Stan Williams

              Relief Pitcher:
              Tier 1: Bryan Harvey, Rick Honeycutt, Michael Jackson, Johnny Murphy, Tony Watson
              Tier 2: Terry Forster, Josh Hader, Todd Jones, Billy O'Dell, Dick Radatz
              Last edited by jjpm74; 06-18-2022, 02:50 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                1. Ramon Hernandez
                2. Stan Javier
                3. Earl Moore
                4. Edgar Wesley
                5. Howard Easterling
                6. Justin Morneau
                7. Davy Force
                8. Tino Martinez
                9. Roy Welmaker
                10. Tom York
                11. Don Mossi
                12. Koji Uehara
                13. Mike Marshall
                14. George Hall
                15. Mark Melancon
                16. Mark Eichorn
                17. Branch Russell
                18. Steve Yeager
                19. Mike Stanley
                20. Roosevelt Davis
                21. Joe Horlen
                22. Byron Bruxton
                23. Ryan Howard
                24. Ron Perranoski
                25. Clete Boyer
                26. Billy Werber
                27. Lloyd Moseby
                28. Al Lopez
                29. Bob Ewing
                30. Charles Nagy
                31. Bob Veale
                32. Willie Crawford
                33. Frank Schulte
                34. Adonis Terry
                35. Ron Reed
                36. Kevin Tapani
                37. Willie Horton
                38. Ed Charles
                39. Brett Boone
                40. Michael Young

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. Adonis Terry (WAY OVERDUE)
                  .
                  2. Branch Russell (2-24 Time is now)
                  3. Billy Werber
                  4. Willie Crawford
                  5. Justin Morneau
                  6. Lloyd Moseby
                  7. Clete Boyer
                  8. Don Mossi
                  9. Ramon Hernandez
                  10. Stan Javier
                  11. Tino Martinez
                  12. Mike Stanley
                  13. Roosevelt Davis
                  14. Frank Schulte
                  15. Willie Horton
                  16. Bob Ewing
                  17. Kevin Tapani
                  18. Bret Boone
                  19. Charles Nagy
                  20. Michael Young
                  21. Joe Horlen
                  22. Bob Veale
                  23. Ron Reed
                  24. Earl Moore
                  .
                  25. Byron Buxton (25-40 Still lots of more deserving players yet to be nominated)
                  26. Howard Easterling
                  27. George Hall
                  28. Koji Uehara
                  29. Edgar Wesley
                  30. Mark Eichhorn
                  31. Tom York
                  32. Ed Charles
                  33. Mark Melancon
                  34. Davy Force
                  35. Ron Perranoski
                  36. Steve Yeager
                  37. Mike Marshall
                  38. Roy Welmaker
                  39. Ryan Howard
                  40. Al Lopez
                  My dream ballpark dimensions
                  LF: 400 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                  RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                  Location....San Diego

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1. Kevin Tapani
                    2. Branch Russell
                    3. Byron Buxton
                    4. Howard Easterling
                    5. Roosevelt Davis
                    6. Steve Yeager
                    7. Ed Charles
                    8. Roy Welmaker
                    9. Clete Boyer
                    10. Koji Uehara
                    11. Edgar Wesley
                    12. Mark Eichhorn
                    13. Willie Crawford
                    14. Lloyd Moseby
                    15. Stan Javier
                    16. Don Mossi
                    17. Ramon Hernandez
                    18. Mike Stanley
                    19. Charles Nagy
                    20. Billy Werber
                    21. Bob Ewing
                    22. Tino Martinez
                    23. Justin Morneau
                    24. Mark Melancon
                    25. Joe Horlen
                    26. Bob Veale
                    27. Wildfire Schulte
                    28. Tom York
                    29. Davy Force
                    30. Ron Perranoski
                    31. Bret Boone
                    32. George Hall
                    33. Mike Marshall
                    34. Willie Horton
                    35. Michael Young
                    36. Ron Reed
                    37. Ryan Howard
                    38. Earl Moore
                    39. Al Lopez
                    40. Adonis Terry
                    Last edited by Chadwick; 06-24-2022, 03:43 AM.
                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just curious what people think of Ken Forsch at this point in the project?

                      Forsch showed a lot of promise as a starter in 1970 and 1971. After two mediocre years as a back of the order guy, he was moved to the bullpen, where from 1974-1979, he spot started, with 16 complete games as well as finishing 155 games and posting a 122 ERA+ over that stretch. 1980-1983 saw Forsch moved back to a starter where over that stretch, he posted 35 CGs and a 106 ERA+

                      Career totals are 106 ERA+. 2127.1 IPs, 27.0 bRef pWAR, 8.5 WAA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                        Just curious what people think of Ken Forsch at this point in the project?
                        See Tier 2, below.

                        Updated Queue
                        Promotions to Tier 1 in italics. New additions underlined.

                        Pitchers
                        Tier 1 – Tiny Bonham, Jose Fernandez, Mark Fidrych, Rats Henderson, German Marquez, Nels Potter, Mark Prior, Harry Salmon, Ismael Valdez, Jake Weimer
                        Tier 2 – Chris Bosio, Luis Castillo, Jhoulys Chacin, Tyler Clippard, Ray Collins, Danny Duffy, Ken Forsch, Rich Harden, Hisashi Iwakuma, Scott Kazmir, Ray Kremer, Dennis Leonard, Jon Lieber, Ben McDonald, Henry McHenry, Hideo Nomo, Steve Reed, Scott Sanderson, Ervin Santana, Marcus Stroman

                        Catchers
                        Tier 1 – Alex Avila, Yan Gomes, Don Slaught, Ernie Whitt, Rick Wilkins
                        Tier 2 – Welington Castillo, Francisco Cervelli, Robinson Chirinos, Ron Karkovice, Mike LaValliere, Jim Pagliaroni, Wilson Ramos, Gary Sanchez, Matt Wieters, Tom Young


                        First Basemen
                        Tier 1 – Ripper Collins, Johnny Hopp, Don Mincher, Max Muncy, Carlos Pena
                        Tier 2 – Zeke Bonura, Joe Cunningham, Alvin Davis, Hector Espino, Glenn Davis, John Mayberry, Wes Parker, Mike Sweeney, Jason Thompson, Andre Thornton

                        Second Basemen
                        Tier 1 – Dave Cash, Ketel Marte, Whit Merrifield, Jonathan Schoop, Kolten Wong
                        Tier 2 – Ozzie Albies, Craig Counsell, Delino DeShields, Marcus Giles, Mark Grudzielanek, Tom Herr, Jason Kipnis, Johnny Ray, Bip Roberts, Neil Walker

                        Third Basemen
                        Tier 1 – Casey Blake, Mike Lowell, Bill Mueller, Eric Soderholm, Pete Ward
                        Tier 2 – Chone Figgins, David Freese, Dave Hollins, Leon Kellman, Brett Lawrie, Dave Magadan, Pepper Martin, Ken Oberkfell, Doug Rader, Pablo Sandoval

                        Shortstops
                        Tier 1 – Pelayo Chacon, Woody English, Yunel Escobar, J.J. Hardy, Jack Wilson

                        Tier 2 – Tim Anderson, Erick Aybar, Jason Bartlett, Jeff Blauser, Mike Bordick, Rick Burleson, Greg Gagne, Didi Gregorius, Woodie Held, Marco Scutaro

                        Left Fielders
                        Tier 1 – John Briggs, Bernard Gilkey, Shane Mack, Tommy Pham, John Stone

                        Tier 2 –Joey Gallo, Bobby Higginson, Geoff Jenkins, Carlos Lee, Charlie Maxwell, Wally Moon, Gene Richards, Shannon Stewart, Tom Tresh, Josh Willingham

                        Center Fielders
                        Top 1 – Michael Bourn, Coco Crisp, Carlos Gomez, Austin Jackson, Gary Pettis
                        Tier 2 – Charlie Blackmon, Irvin Brooks, Al Bumbry, Marlon Byrd, Ender Inciarte, Johnny Mostil, Colby Rasmus, Aaron Rowand, Stan Spence, Randy Winn

                        Right Fielders
                        Tier 1 – Ival Goodman, Bake McBride, Yasiel Puig, Josh Reddick, Trot Nixon
                        Tier 2 – Bernie Carbo, Michael Conforto, Adam Eaton, Andre Ethier, Ival Goodman, Mitch Haniger, Richard Hidalgo, Max Kepler, Jim Northrup, Merv Rettenmund, Socks Seybold

                        Unicorn
                        Shoehei Ohtani
                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                          Just curious what people think of Ken Forsch at this point in the project?

                          Forsch showed a lot of promise as a starter in 1970 and 1971. After two mediocre years as a back of the order guy, he was moved to the bullpen, where from 1974-1979, he spot started, with 16 complete games as well as finishing 155 games and posting a 122 ERA+ over that stretch. 1980-1983 saw Forsch moved back to a starter where over that stretch, he posted 35 CGs and a 106 ERA+

                          Career totals are 106 ERA+. 2127.1 IPs, 27.0 bRef pWAR, 8.5 WAA
                          Forsch is currently 16th of the top 30 on my nomination list. Looks like he would reach my ballot below Mike Marshall, which would put him in the 16-20 range in balloting.

                          For the record, he would go higher than Kevin Tapani head to head.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chadwick View Post

                            Unicorn
                            Shoehei Ohtani
                            I totally spaced on him. Not only would I support him here, but he would probably top my ballot.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                              I totally spaced on him. Not only would I support him here, but he would probably top my ballot.
                              Ohtani's MLB career alone has him on the fringes of where we are right now, add his Japan career and we have whiffed to some degree. Estimating about 3/4ths of his value in MLB to be his bat, where in Japan he was more successful as a pitcher and the power in his bat was just starting to pop.

                              Comment

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