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Manny vs Allen

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  • Manny vs Allen

    Ok, who was the better hitter? You take "better" to mean whatever you choose.

    Manny Ramirez vs Dick Allen
    37
    Manny Ramirez
    86.49%
    32
    Dick Allen
    13.51%
    5
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    --Allen was better. Ramirez has the better raw numbers, but his era and park have been a huge boost while Allen's were severely depressed. Manny is likely to end up the much more valuable hitter due what is shaping up to be a longer career with more durability in season.

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    • #3
      Manny Ramirez, he actually had better numbers in Cleveland than in Fenway

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      • #4
        Manny is going to be a first ballot HOFer, and not for his fielding. Rightfully or not, Allen is still on the outside looking in. Allen's peak was probably better, but Manny's peak has lasted longer and his counting stats will be through the roof by the time he's done. (assuming he plays into his late 30's)
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

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        • #5
          This is a tough one. Manny's numbers look superficially better and he's had a longer peak. However, Allen put up his numbers in much more adverse circumstances when you consider park effects and the pitching rules during the first half of his career. I think all things considered, I give the edge to Allen.

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          • #6
            I'd say Manny....in my lifetime of watching baseball.....he's the best hitter I've seen day in and day out. Despite the era, Manny's numbers are gaudy.
            Easy choice for me.
            "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

            "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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            • #7
              Last edited by 538280; 08-28-2006, 04:58 PM.

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              • #8
                I feel that Dick Allen is extremely underrated and should be in the Hall of Fame as one of the 30 or so best hitters of all-time, but Manny is such a special hitter.

                Manny Ramirez's career Equivalent Average is .333, which is the 9th best EqA ever. He was at .331 last year in a "down year," or atleast that is what most that can't stop talking about batting average call it. His EqA was .327 last year, and he had 1 more Equivalent Run this year. Here are Manny's 10 best EqA's.

                .365, .363, .352, .339, .335, .331, .327, .327, .323, .321

                Manny's translated line is .312/.412/.618 and Allen's is .294/.386/.605. Allen has a career Equivalent average is .321, good for 29th all-time. Here are his 10 best lined up with Manny's.

                .349, .346, .341, .339, .331, .327, .326, .320, .319, .318 (.332 average) - Dick Allen
                .365, .363, .352, .339, .335, .331, .327, .327, .323, .321 (.338 average) - Manny Ramirez

                Manny beats him every year.

                Manny averages 132-80-61 EqR-BRAR-BRAA
                Allen averaged 125-71-51 EqR-BRAR-BRAA.

                Allen is great and truly underrated, but a hitter like Manny is, well, top 10 all-time material.

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                • #9
                  Wow....I just can't make up my mind. I'll abstain and call it a draw.

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                  • #10
                    I have to give the nod to Dick Allen.

                    The numbers he put up while playing in pitchers parks in a primarily pitchers era outshine what Manny has done in a huge hitters era.

                    One other thing, there were times when Allen had no real support in the batting order. At times it was stop Allen and you stopped his team. That's some pressure.

                    Manny, OTOH, has played good hitters throughout his career in Cleveland and Boston.

                    Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                    • #11
                      I'm going with my Manny, I'm a big Manny guy.

                      Allen was trememdous but Manny is a machine year in and year out and he's far from done.
                      THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                      In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BoSox Rule
                        I feel that Dick Allen is extremely underrated and should be in the Hall of Fame as one of the 30 or so best hitters of all-time, but Manny is such a special hitter.

                        Manny Ramirez's career Equivalent Average is .333, which is the 9th best EqA ever. He was at .331 last year in a "down year," or atleast that is what most that can't stop talking about batting average call it. His EqA was .327 last year, and he had 1 more Equivalent Run this year. Here are Manny's 10 best EqA's.

                        .365, .363, .352, .339, .335, .331, .327, .327, .323, .321

                        Manny's translated line is .312/.412/.618 and Allen's is .294/.386/.605. Allen has a career Equivalent average is .321, good for 29th all-time. Here are his 10 best lined up with Manny's.

                        .349, .346, .341, .339, .331, .327, .326, .320, .319, .318 (.332 average) - Dick Allen
                        .365, .363, .352, .339, .335, .331, .327, .327, .323, .321 (.338 average) - Manny Ramirez

                        Manny beats him every year.

                        Manny averages 132-80-61 EqR-BRAR-BRAA
                        Allen averaged 125-71-51 EqR-BRAR-BRAA.

                        Allen is great and truly underrated, but a hitter like Manny is, well, top 10 all-time material.
                        Excellent post by BSR.

                        Dick & ManRam are much closer than what the average baseball fans would tend to believe. Those that never saw him or those that do not understand advance metrics tends to tremendously underrate Dick Allen.
                        Growing up as a kid in the 1970s, I remember how awesome of a hitter Allen was in a very offense starved era. He was one of the most feared hitter in the league.
                        That being said, they are close but not that close. Manny is an incredible hitter and is slightly out of reach for Allen.
                        Also factor in the reasoning that Manny has not slowed down and is most likely going to post a few more monster seasons, the distance between him and Allen keeps growing.

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                        • #13
                          I went with ManRam and his margin will only increase as time goes by.
                          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                          • #14
                            I swear I can hear the ghost of Rod Serling creeping around in here.
                            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                            Carl Yastrzemski

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                            • #15
                              Like many of his contemporaries of the 1960's, Allen's numbers don't look as impressive as they really are. From 1964-1968 Allen was the third best player in Baseball behind Mays and Aaron.

                              Here's a look at Allen's Win Share totals:

                              1964:41 WS
                              1965:33 WS
                              1966:35 WS
                              1967:29 WS
                              1968:32 WS
                              1969:22 WS
                              1970:19 WS
                              1971:29 WS
                              1972:40 WS
                              1973:15 WS
                              1974:24 WS
                              1975: 8 WS
                              1976:11 WS
                              1977: 4 WS

                              2 Historical seasons, 5 MVP seasons, 2 AllStar seasons.

                              Manny Ramirez has been a fantastic player for the last 12 years, but his numbers are a bit inflated because of the ballparks he played in and the era in which he played.

                              Here's Manny Ramirez's win share totals:

                              1994:11 WS
                              1995:25 WS
                              1996:23 WS
                              1997:21 WS
                              1998:25 WS
                              1999:35 WS
                              2000:27 WS
                              2001:25 WS
                              2002:29 WS
                              2003:28 WS
                              2004:27 WS
                              2005:34 WS

                              Zero Historical seasons, 3 MVP Caliber seasons, 8 All Star seasons.

                              So Manny has put up consistent Allstar seasons for a decade, but he's never had a historical season and he's" only "had 3 MVP seasons.

                              According to Winshares - Allen's top 3 seasons are better than Manny's top 3 seasons. Allen's top five consecutive seasons are better than manny's top five. Allen's career totals are better than Manny's Career total, although it's likely that Manny will end up with better numbers than Allen.

                              I think what this shows is the dominance of Allen and that he should be in the Hof.
                              Last edited by Dontworry; 03-05-2006, 10:53 AM.

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