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  • #16
    I say that they are pretty much even, but Ramirez is still going strong - REAL strong, so each season he plays will separate himself from Allen, who was washed up by age 30.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dontworry
      Like many of his contemporaries of the 1960's, Allen's numbers don't look as impressive as they really are. From 1964-1968 Allen was the third best player in Baseball behind Mays and Aaron. He had "TWO" legendary seasons, 1964 and 1972. He really should be in the hall of fame.

      Here's a look at Allen's Win Share totals:

      1964-41 W/S
      1965-33 W/S
      1966-35 W/S
      1967-29 W/S
      1968-32 W/S
      1969-22 W/S
      1970-19 W/S
      1971-29 W/S
      1972-40 W/S
      1973-15 W/S
      1974-24 W/S
      1975- 8 W/S
      1976-11 W/S
      1977- 4 W/S

      2 Legendary seasons, 5 MVP caliber seasons, 2 All Star seasons.

      Manny Ramirez's has been a terrific player for the last 12 years, but his numbers are a little inflated because of the ballparks he played in and the era in which he played.

      Here's Manny Ramirez's win share totals:

      1994: 11 W/S
      1995: 25 W/S
      1996: 23 W/S
      1997: 21 W/S
      1998: 25 W/S
      1999: 35 W/S
      2000: 27 W/S
      2001: 25 W/S
      2002: 29 W/S
      2003: 28 W/S
      2004: 27 W/S
      2005: 34 W/S

      0 Legendary seasons, 3 MVP Caliber seasons, 8 All Star seasons.

      So Manny has put up consistent All star seasons for ten years, but he's never had a legendary season and he's"only"had 3 MVP caliber seasons.

      According to Winshares - Allen's top 3 seasons are better than Manny's top 3 seasons. Allen's top five consecutive seasons are better than manny's top five. Allen's career totals are better than Manny's Career total, although it's likely that Manny will end up with better numbers than Allen.

      I think what this shows is the dominance of Allen and that he should be in the hall of fame.
      And of course Win Shares is the perfect stat, right? Manny has finished in the top-6 in MVP voting six times. Allen did it just twice. Manny's and Allens OPS+ are identical at 156.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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      • #18
        As much as I like Manny's hitting, I think Richie was a better hitter/athlete. He had one of the most beautiful physique's ever seen. Like the young Mays/Canseco. He was so graceful, natural. We never thought he fulfilled his potential and promise. Seems he could not rise above a lot of fan hatred.

        When he was a Philly, some ignorant people left garbage in his front lawn. He couldn't cope with that. Messed up his head. And that led to his lack of steady play onfield. Too bad. Real waste of unlimited talent.

        Manny has the offensive era buoying his numbers, and Richie had the 60's to depress his stickwork.

        Bill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
          And of course Win Shares is the perfect stat, right? Manny has finished in the top-6 in MVP voting six times. Allen did it just twice. Manny's and Allens OPS+ are identical at 156.
          HW, you question the validity of Win Shares, and then proceed to mention MVP voting? lol, in terms of relevance, win shares run rough shot over MVP voting anyday. MVP voting is just below gold gloves and all star appearances, on the list of meaningless ways to rank players, imo.

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          • #20
            I choose Allen because of the high offense now compared to then. The ten best seasons of each is making me rethink

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
              And of course Win Shares is the perfect stat, right? Manny has finished in the top-6 in MVP voting six times. Allen did it just twice. Manny's and Allens OPS+ are identical at 156.
              Manny did put up big number between 1998-01, but he also did this at Fenway Park, when the American league averaged 5.0, 5.1, 5.3, 4.8, RPG. The highest RPG average since the liveball era of the 30's. So you have to put those numbers in context. It's simply not fair to compare numbers with Dick Allen without making some adjustment for time.

              Dick Allen played from 1964-68 at Connie Mack Stadium during a time period when the NL was averaging 4.0,4.0,4.0,3.8,3.4 RPG. Some of the lowest totals in NL History. Dick Allen's 5 year stretch 64-68 is better than any 5 year stretch in Manny Ramirez's career. It just doesn't seem that way because of the league and the time period he played in.
              Last edited by Dontworry; 03-05-2006, 11:55 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                HW, you question the validity of Win Shares, and then proceed to mention MVP voting? lol, in terms of relevance, win shares run rough shot over MVP voting anyday. MVP voting is just below gold gloves and all star appearances, on the list of meaningless ways to rank players, imo.
                Sultan,

                I wasn't questioning the validity of Win Shares, I was just joking around. The fact that in six different seasons the MVP voters considered Manny Ramirez on of the top six players in the AL is relavent in my view.
                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 03-02-2006, 09:35 PM.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  Sultan,

                  I wasn't questioning the validity of Win Shares, I was just joking around. The fact that in six different seasons the MVP voters considered Manny Ramirez on of the top six players in the AL is relavent in my view.
                  Gotcha, my bad then. It's not relevant in my view, but disagreements are healthy

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                  • #24
                    went with Manny Ramirez. Dick Allen should be in the HOF and is definitely underrated. But Manny is a hitting savant. Dude is just a machine. year in year out he just puts up otherworld numbers. Top three hitter of this era.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rockin500
                      went with Manny Ramirez. Dick Allen should be in the HOF and is definitely underrated. But Manny is a hitting savant. Dude is just a machine. year in year out he just puts up otherworld numbers. Top three hitter of this era.
                      Like Allen isn't the same? The only difference is that he doesn't put up "otherworldly" numbers because of the era he played in. Allen was a top one hitter of his era, never mind top three. Want to put them in context? Look at league leads. Allen has more black and gray ink than Manny. His numbers, in context, were more "otherworldly".

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 538280
                        Like Allen isn't the same? The only difference is that he doesn't put up "otherworldly" numbers because of the era he played in. Allen was a top one hitter of his era, never mind top three. Want to put them in context? Look at league leads. Allen has more black and gray ink than Manny. His numbers, in context, were more "otherworldly".
                        Allen had more league leads because the decade had less top echelons than Manny's. Don tell me that the average player was better therefore league leads were harder to get. He's not competing with the average player....he's competing with the best...which in Manny's era are plentiful. Put Manny in Allen's timeframe and he'd lead year in and year out. In conclusion Allen had "soft competitors" in relation to Manny.
                        "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                        "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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                        • #27
                          --Mays, Aaron and Robinson were in their primes and in his league when Allen came up. Are they the "soft competitors" Richie had to deal with? Who in the AL of Manny Ramirez is tougher than those three? Toss in Clemente, Cepeda, Williams and McCovey and thats a pretty tough group of competitors IMO. Then when he moved to the AL he had Killebrew, Yaz, Robinson again, Frank Howard, etc to compete with.

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                          • #28
                            Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, Mark Mcgwire, Ken Griffey JR, Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jim Thome, Troy Glaus, Richie Sexson, David Justice, Bernie Williams, Paul Oneil, Derek Jeter, Mark Texiera, Ichiro Suzuki, David Ortiz, Vladimir Guerrero, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Mo Vaughn, Carlos Delgado .....etc

                            Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......

                            Its not even close...the AL of Manny's is far and away more competive than Allen's.
                            "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                            "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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                            • #29
                              Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......
                              More rivals of Dick Allen:

                              Ken Boyer, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Ron Santo, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez.
                              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-04-2006, 08:09 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Myankee4life
                                Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, Mark Mcgwire, Ken Griffey JR, Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jim Thome, Troy Glaus, Richie Sexson, David Justice, Bernie Williams, Paul Oneil, Derek Jeter, Mark Texiera, Ichiro Suzuki, David Ortiz, Vladimir Guerrero, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Mo Vaughn, Carlos Delgado .....etc

                                Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......

                                Its not even close...the AL of Manny's is far and away more competive than Allen's.
                                Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

                                NL
                                Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

                                AL
                                Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott

                                Those guys are better than Manny's competitors. If you think otherwise, then you're being buffaloed by gaudy traditional stats.
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-04-2006, 08:08 PM.

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